klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 27, 2020 14:19:38 GMT -5
Blaming the reviewer for the error found, saying measurements don't matter, it sounds great, calling prospective customers trolls should never happen in my opinion and just looks bad. It certainly could have been handled better...starting with Amir, who concluded from the measurements that "This is a hardware design problem and not fixable with firmware updates and such." Turns out, he and those coming here to tout his results were wrong on that. To me, it appears those touting the results were really just cheering for Emotiva to fail and in no way seeking to help make the product better or help any users here. One even accused them of "sheer incompetence". Ongoing, I continue to not trust Amir's findings because he has a history of doing some combination of non-standard testing, making inflammatory comments that are often off-base, and sometimes even making flat out wrong statements about equipment construction. I've read more of his reviews than just this one...and as a long time scientist, I find the name "Audio Science Review" a bit..."overstated" Mark
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Post by thxultra on Feb 27, 2020 14:20:24 GMT -5
Happy there is a resolution. As a potential customer, disappointed in how the response to the review both from owners and Emotiva since it was released. .. -Review must be wrong -Reviewer is doesn't know what he is doing -Reviewer doesn't use standard tests and measurements -HT Processors shouldn't be compared to DACs -Everyone says it sounds great and measurements don't matter -If you don't like it don't buy it, go away -A test was run showing 98 Sinad... with .5v instead of 4v or at least a typical 1.5 or 2v to run Emotiva amps. -An error was found in the register in DSP, tests were then able to run and show a Sinad of 95 with 4V Instead it would have been so much better.... -The results do not match the capability of the prouduct. -Run same test at 4V to duplicate the test results. -Research and find the fix -Announce fix and thank Amir for finding the flaw that had a very negative impact on noise and distortion. Blaming the reviewer for the error found, saying measurements don't matter, it sounds great, calling prospective customers trolls should never happen in my opinion and just looks bad. Blame can be had by all. However I find it very odd that ASR did not give Emotiva any time to address the issue before people created accounts on their forum to call them out and basically state that their processors had major problems. Why was that done? Very underhanded in my view. If this had been handled as it should have been, off of an owner's forum, it most likely would have been much more civil. The folks at Emotiva are good people. I've met them in person at Emofest and audio shows and there is no way they would intentionally defraud anyone. They love what they do. My .02. Looking forward to meeting them at Axpona. I don't know many companies that have the owner and engineers answering questions on their forums. I do think AVS should have given Emotiva more time to respond. I also don't think you can blame Amirm for the people that came here and posted as I don't think that was his goal. I feel he is trying to make manufacturers accountable by using tests he feels are important. If nothing else he found a problem and Emotiva corrected it so as owners we are getting a better product out of it. He could have given Emotiva more time to respond though. Putting in his request on a friday night and posting his review Monday morning didn't give Emotiva any chance at all.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 27, 2020 14:36:22 GMT -5
I will never understand why so many people interested in this hobby are so quick to latch onto negativity and misstatements. But then again all I need do is look at the state of the world, I suppose....
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Post by dj7675 on Feb 27, 2020 14:42:58 GMT -5
Happy there is a resolution. As a potential customer, disappointed in how the response to the review both from owners and Emotiva since it was released. .. -Review must be wrong -Reviewer is doesn't know what he is doing -Reviewer doesn't use standard tests and measurements -HT Processors shouldn't be compared to DACs -Everyone says it sounds great and measurements don't matter -If you don't like it don't buy it, go away -A test was run showing 98 Sinad... with .5v instead of 4v or at least a typical 1.5 or 2v to run Emotiva amps. -An error was found in the register in DSP, tests were then able to run and show a Sinad of 95 with 4V Instead it would have been so much better.... -The results do not match the capability of the prouduct. -Run same test at 4V to duplicate the test results. -Research and find the fix -Announce fix and thank Amir for finding the flaw that had a very negative impact on noise and distortion. Blaming the reviewer for the error found, saying measurements don't matter, it sounds great, calling prospective customers trolls should never happen in my opinion and just looks bad. Blame can be had by all. However I find it very odd that ASR did not give Emotiva any time to address the issue before people created accounts on their forum to call them out and basically state that their processors had major problems. Why was that done? Very underhanded in my view. If this had been handled as it should have been, off of an owner's forum, it most likely would have been much more civil. The folks at Emotiva are good people. I've met them in person at Emofest and audio shows and there is no way they would intentionally defraud anyone. They love what they do. My .02. Thanks for your reply. One thing that people often misunderstand about ASR, is that Amir tests gear that is sent to him by members. Sometimes a manufacturer will send it in, but this is the exception rather than the rule. He bench tests it, posts the results. It is a consumer service type of thing to show technical/engineering excellence of products sent in and are judged accordingly. I don't know what guidlines he uses on notifiying the manufacturer, but I can see how this certainly may have helped. This testing of people's gear has revealed many issues. Many times the manufacturer will be able to use this information to provide fixes to current products, or improve the design on future products. Take Schiit for example. Several very poor performing products. There was a lot of similiar comments as here... measurements don't matter, reviewer doesn't know what he is doing etc, trust your ears. However, the products they are putting out now measure extremely well. I guess where I am coming from is... duplicate the measurements, use it as an opportunity to show you care about making the best measuring/sounding device instead of passing and shifting blame. I have no doubt they the Emotiva folks are good guys. I just wish they would have responded in a different manner. I also believe that aggressive posts from Emotiva owners and also those from ASR that joined just to post really fanned the flames. I have been here a while to see if an Emotiva product (processor and amps) would work for me. Distortion and noise (sinad) is important to me which is why I requested measurements for the XMC-2 several months ago. In my opinion, providing details AP measurements on all of their products would go a long way towards avoiding this. The only way the customer could get actual measurements was to send it in to Amir. Absolutely zero specs or measurements have been provided. This is something I hope Emotiva will reconsider as selling 3-$5k processors with zero specs/measurements really makes it difficult as a buyer. Hopefully some good can come out of this.
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Post by donh50 on Feb 27, 2020 14:44:17 GMT -5
Calling Amir and everyone associated with him all sorts of names because he found a real problem? Geez guys... And I hate the way people on each forum are calling the others all sorts of names and insults. I am guilty, too, but the level recently is unbelievable. What I am glad about is that he identified a problem that led to Emotiva finding the same thing, and then fixing the problem! Yes, communication should have been better, but the end result is a big win for all. Hopefully he still has the unit and can repeat with the FW update.
As for his procedures, he has chosen an output level based on his experience over the years and more recently with all the numerous products he has tested. That (output level) is not really standardized but the basic test methodology is straight out of the Audio Precision manuals, not something he made up or went off half-cocked on. You want to question his methods, go talk to AP, and everyone who uses them.
I read "charts" to get an idea what to expect and generally help weed stuff out. As many have said, the bar is much lower for AVRs/AVPs for many reasons, but raising the bar should always be desirable IMO. A lot of things go into the "buy" decision like cost, features, performance, etc. A post on another forum said engineers should just get out of audio because all that matters is what folk hear. Well, while I sometimes think that's a good idea, somebody, probably an engineer, has to design that component for you to hear...
Glad things are moving forward again. - Don (MSEE, amateur musician, minion of various fora including this one, interested RMC-1 observer whilst enjoying my XMC-1 and house full of Emotiva amps)
Edit: Amir still has the unit so can retest when the FW update is posted, assuming one of us quacky minions sends it to him (or Lonnie or someone can send it direct).
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 27, 2020 14:46:11 GMT -5
He could have given Emotiva more time to respond though. Putting in his request on a friday night and posting his review Monday morning didn't give Emotiva any chance at all. This. It's this kind of action that makes me pause about anything and everything after the fact. I'll be honest, while I was only aware(no thoughts one way or the other) of ASR before this review, my opinions of ASR and the reviewer are tainted at best, and I question the intentions. Having read the reviewers professional background, I would have thought a more professional approach would have had a better outcome.
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Post by Dan Laufman on Feb 27, 2020 14:48:12 GMT -5
Happy there is a resolution. As a potential customer, disappointed in how the response to the review both from owners and Emotiva since it was released. .. -Review must be wrong -Reviewer is doesn't know what he is doing -Reviewer doesn't use standard tests and measurements -HT Processors shouldn't be compared to DACs -Everyone says it sounds great and measurements don't matter -If you don't like it don't buy it, go away -A test was run showing 98 Sinad... with .5v instead of 4v or at least a typical 1.5 or 2v to run Emotiva amps. -An error was found in the register in DSP, tests were then able to run and show a Sinad of 95 with 4V Instead it would have been so much better.... -The results do not match the capability of the prouduct. -Run same test at 4V to duplicate the test results. -Research and find the fix -Announce fix and thank Amir for finding the flaw that had a very negative impact on noise and distortion. Blaming the reviewer for the error found, saying measurements don't matter, it sounds great, calling prospective customers trolls should never happen in my opinion and just looks bad. Please let me be clear... We have not attacked or blamed anyone. We have respectfully stated our opinions and the facts as we know them in a professional and cordial manner. I have also thanked the reviewer for pointing out an issue with the unit. At the same time it was noted that it might have been handled in a more constructive and less dramatic manner. Personally, I do take issue with the reviewers "style" and use of language on his website, but it's really not any of my business. It's his site, and he can run it as he sees fit. Regarding his test procedures... we are not going to start testing using his methodology. We do not agree with his testing regimen. We will publish full test results, using our industry standard test protocol. Disagreeing with someone is not the same as blaming or attacking them. I'd like to move on from this, please. It's starting to resemble a Yelp page. Cheers, Big Dan
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Post by lrobertson on Feb 27, 2020 14:52:55 GMT -5
I will never understand why so many people interested in this hobby are so quick to latch onto negativity and misstatements. But then again all I need do is look at the state of the world, I suppose.... I think it offends a lot of the industry if they find that these systems can outperform or at least be on par with much more expensive systems. The industry wants to justify hefty spending. If all you get for a lot more money is a more stable rollout at a new codecs inception then there will be a huge incentive for those with patience and a frugal mind to save money. Hopefully this slip up and misdiagnosis will teach this guy some humility but it certainly seems like he was getting the results his bias very much wanted for how poorly he decided to communicate with Emotiva before anxiously publishing. Almost looks intentional 🤔
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 27, 2020 15:00:32 GMT -5
.........................and that's a wrap. Any updates on this matter that needs posting by Dan/Lonnie/Ray/KeithL can be updated here when/if/as they get it. Any other posts at this point are just opinions and only serve to keep the pot stirring. In order to move on, this thread is now closed.
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