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Post by rockman85 on Mar 24, 2020 12:58:38 GMT -5
Whether this is in my mind or not is still up for debate. But the effect is very very real psychologically, placebo or not. I have been itching to upgrade my system for some time because I felt it was lacking something... but lately, like that past month or so, I find my system to be super pleasing as is. I've heard Jordan Peterson say its not always a good thing for certain people to have money, like drug addicts and alcoholics because they tend to use their funds for their self destructive purposes. I think the same can be said for audiophiles  . But basically, I didn't upgrade because I couldn't really afford it without putting myself into further debt, and in a way I am kind of glad. I heard Steve Guttenberg in one of his videos give the advice to basically just stop and ask yourself why the next time you are itching to upgrade something. Being that this decision was sort of made for me, I am delighted that I am enjoying my system now more than ever. I admit though, in the back of my mind there is always the question of what if? And surely, once I am out of personal debt I know I will be experimenting with upgrades. But for now at least that feeling that I am missing something is gone. Anyone else feel that they like their system more as time went on if you just didnt touch it? |
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stiehl11
Emo VIPs 
Give me available light!
Posts: 7,261
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Post by stiehl11 on Mar 24, 2020 13:12:50 GMT -5
I know listening to significantly lesser systems have become like garlic to a vampire with me. This week at work we've been listening to a Explorer Outback 2 BT speaker in the lab and it sounds like hot garbage (hot garbage is better than no garbage, I guess). Listening to Der Trommler from Rush R30 sounded like mush; just noise! Made my current system(s) sound like a million dollars!
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Post by DavidR on Mar 24, 2020 16:51:42 GMT -5
I restore speakers and have just a few select songs I test the results with. I can tell you that capacitor burn in is real.
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 24, 2020 20:17:03 GMT -5
Whether this is in my mind or not is still up for debate. But the effect is very very real psychologically, placebo or not. I have been itching to upgrade my system for some time because I felt it was lacking something... but lately, like that past month or so, I find my system to be super pleasing as is. I've heard Jordan Peterson say its not always a good thing for certain people to have money, like drug addicts and alcoholics because they tend to use their funds for their self destructive purposes. I think the same can be said for audiophiles . But basically, I didn't upgrade because I couldn't really afford it without putting myself into further debt, and in a way I am kind of glad. I heard Steve Guttenberg in one of his videos give the advice to basically just stop and ask yourself why the next time you are itching to upgrade something. Being that this decision was sort of made for me, I am delighted that I am enjoying my system now more than ever. I admit though, in the back of my mind there is always the question of what if? And surely, once I am out of personal debt I know I will be experimenting with upgrades. But for now at least that feeling that I am missing something is gone. Anyone else feel that they like their system more as time went on if you just didnt touch it? There’s a huge difference between upgrading vs. UPDATING. I prefer to keep loudspeakers in a separate category from all of this. I’ve been listening to essentially the same drivers for decades, but the electronics updates just keep making those old puppies continue to blossom, providing, the integrity of the individual drivers is maintained. Bill |
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Post by jackfish on Mar 25, 2020 7:58:43 GMT -5
Equipment burn in or brain burn in?
13.3" MacBook Air, 4GB RAM, 256GB SSD, iTunes/BitPerfect
MacBook Air SuperDrive
Western Digital My Book Essential 2TB USB HD
Schiit Bifrost USB DAC and Audioengine D3 DAC
Emotiva USP-1, ERC-1 and two UPA-1s
Pro-Ject Xpression III and AT440MLa
AKAI AT-2600 and Harman Kardon TD4400
Grado SR80i
Wharfedale Diamond 225
Magnestand MMG
Rythmik Audio F12
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lotaz
Minor Hero
Posts: 70
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Post by lotaz on Mar 25, 2020 17:10:42 GMT -5
It's real whether people believe or don't is a whole other story.
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 25, 2020 18:26:03 GMT -5
Speaker burn in, I’ve experienced it.
Tube equipment burn in, I’ve experienced that too.
Solid state equipment burn in, never ever experienced it.
When I was doing sound for live gigs we’d often have to swap an amp in, brand new out of the box. No difference in sound to the others that had often done over 1000 hours.
More recently, I had occasion to help out Emotiva checking over 3 x XPA-1L’s. One of them was damaged by shorted speaker wires, so they supplied a brand new replacement. Compared it to the other 2 over several days, running mono sound input, no discernible or measurable difference in sound.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by ttocs on Mar 26, 2020 23:51:20 GMT -5
Agree with Gary and David on some points:
New speaker break-in: Yes, speakers change dramatically over the first 100 hours. I kept very detailed track of the progress with my current speakers up to 120 hours.
Tube burn-in: Yes, again, dramatic changes but over a shorter period of time. For me it was around 50-60 hours of big change, after that it was much more subtle. I stopped keeping track after 90 hours when change was no longer evident.
Except for the initial first couple of heat cycles I've never experienced any noticeable change with solid state, but my Krell likes to sound better when warmer than when it's in standby. I use a fan to keep the heat from hitting 150 degrees on the top of the amp. I discovered that if I suck all the heat out it didn't sound as good, but if I let the temp get to over 110 degrees then it was happy. 110 on the top means the internals are around 130 degrees. I don't want to run it too cold even though I only use it for surrounds these days. Running it without a fan means new capacitors on a regular basis, which I've already done twice, so that's why I keep it cooler.
Capacitors do in fact need usage if they haven't been used in a long time. It's the reason I bought my first Variac, so I could "gently" apply voltage to my vintage and antique guitar amps.
As far as liking my system more and more over time? Not more, but I would say that I'm amazed that my feeling of being finally satisfied with my amps and main speakers has not dwindled. After getting my current speakers I was very happy, but was still interested in discovering if other amps would be better. I tried some in my home and still wasn't finding anything better than what I already had. Then I decided to get a couple of amp kits for fun and education, and bingo! From the first day of marrying these tube amps to my speakers I experienced a feeling I haven't had since getting my first really good stereo combo which served me well for 32 years. I'm finally totally happy and in awe of the sound I experience every time I listen to good quality music! So for me, I have no desire to seek out speakers or amps for to replace my mains. But everything else is expendable!
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Post by DavidR on Mar 27, 2020 1:08:06 GMT -5
The only piece of SS gear that I can say that I definitely did experience cap break in (and it needed break in) was my Bose 901_II Active EQ. It was rebuilt using Sonicaps in the signal path. It took 200+ hours to totally break-in. I would notice that with the volume up I could hear glare and brightness. Turn the volume down some and it went away. As the caps got more time on them the volume would have to be turned up higher and higher than previously to hear the glare and brightness. I don't care for the Sonicaps. Kind of lack detail.
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Post by graphic on Mar 27, 2020 6:01:00 GMT -5
The only piece of SS gear that I can say that I definitely did experience cap break in (and it needed break in) was my Bose 901_II Active EQ. It was rebuilt using Sonicaps in the signal path. It took 200+ hours to totally break-in. I would notice that with the volume up I could hear glare and brightness. Turn the volume down some and it went away. As the caps got more time on them the volume would have to be turned up higher and higher than previously to hear the glare and brightness. I don't care for the Sonicaps. Kind of lack detail.
I will second this. I had the same mods performed as David, by the same guy, for Bose 901_II. The burn/break in was real, and obvious. It is, as David said, the only SS equipment I’ve had in over 50 years in this hobby that had such a glaring issue. Now, probably going on three years later, I would dare say these may be the best sounding 901s ( along with David’s no doubt ) anyone has ever heard. I heard the originals in 1968, and neither they nor any other generations can match what I hear here. I’m not sure on the lack of detail, David. They are so sensitive to placement, and I’ve worn out the carpet moving them around. No one who has ever heard them has complained, once they picked up their jaw!  |
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Post by DavidR on Mar 27, 2020 7:52:17 GMT -5
............................................ I’m not sure on the lack of detail, David. ................................................. It may just be the speaker itself. They don't have detail like my AR speakers. BUT the treble response has dramatically increased with the better caps. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 9,928
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Post by KeithL on Mar 27, 2020 9:08:31 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree....
Speaker drivers may be subject to a quite extended "burn-in"... because both the spider and the surround will soften as they get "exercised". This will lower the mechanical free air resonance... Which will potentially, in turn, extend the bass response... (And, since most drivers are spec'ed after burn-in, they will match a crossover or cabinet tuning that was calculated according to the spec sheet better after that.)
However, while technically some capacitors do have a sort of burn-in, it occurs over a period of a few seconds. Although sometimes very old capacitors, which have been stored for a long time, seem to get "stale", and may recover from that condition somewhat gradually.
This is one reason why it is often suggested that, when firing up an old tube amp, that hasn't run in years, you should bring the voltage up gradually. (Note, however, that we're talking about capacitors that have gone seriously off-spec due to age, and return to proper spec.... not to caps that "work well but improve after use".)
Also note that we humans are subject to our own very assertive sort of "burn-in". (I believe the technical name is "accommodation effect"......) Basically, when we listen to something for a while, it "starts to sound normal", and anything that sounds different from it tends to sound "odd". (It may sound "odd good" or "odd bad"... but the point is that the one we listen to for a while becomes our "reference" for what we compare others to.)
So, when you first hear a new speaker, it sounds odd because it sounds different than what you were listening to before... Then, after a while, which can be a matter of minutes, hours, or even days... The new one starts to sound "normal" and your old speaker now sounds "different"... (This is why, if you spend time building or repairing a crappy speaker, it "starts to sound good"... until you listen to a different speaker that really is good.  )
This same effect works with other things... like colors we see and the temperature of things we touch.
Remember the experiment where you first place one hand in a bowl of hot water while placing the other hand in a bowl of cold water... Then, when you later place both hands in the same bowl of room temperature water, it feels cold to one hand and warm to the other...
We also see this with color... Any large object, like a wall, that is anywhere near white, soon "starts to look like it is pure white"... Which affects how we perceive the color of anything we see afterwards (like a picture hanging on that wall). It is also the basis for many "optical illusions".
............................................ I’m not sure on the lack of detail, David. ................................................. It may just be the speaker itself. They don't have detail like my AR speakers. |
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Post by Cogito on Mar 27, 2020 9:58:42 GMT -5
Agree with Gary and David on some points: New speaker break-in: Yes, speakers change dramatically over the first 100 hours. While I agree that speakers do break in (Magnepans are great examples), I have NEVER heard a speaker change "dramatically". With the Maggies, the bass gets slightly more extended, ever so SLIGHTLY. i.e. Barely perceptible. I would think it would be nearly impossible to audition speakers assuming what you are currently hearing is not going to be what you are hearing hours later. I have seen people test this in a purely objective way, using measurements in driver compliance, frequency response, etc. with the general consensus that there's little or no appreciable change in the measurements. If there were a "dramatic" change, I would consider such a product to be defective or at least, poorly engineered. |
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. But basically, I didn't upgrade because I couldn't really afford it without putting myself into further debt, and in a way I am kind of glad. I heard Steve Guttenberg in one of his videos give the advice to basically just stop and ask yourself why the next time you are itching to upgrade something. Being that this decision was sort of made for me, I am delighted that I am enjoying my system now more than ever. 
)
