XMC-2 Subwoofer Help Please

[Afford-HiFi]

Hey All,

Just got my new XMC-2 and I cannot get the subwoofer to work while watching a movie.  If I go into the XMC-2 menu and play a test tone the subwoofer will turn on and play.  However, there just is zero sound when I am watching a movie.

I am using an XLR cable from the XMC-2 to my subwoofer.  The cable is in the "center sub" channel and it is currently set at LFE.  I also tried MONO but that didn't work either.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

James

[Afford-HiFi]

Hey All,

I figured out how to get it working for now. I changed the LCR to "small" vs "large". As soon as I did that the subwoofer fired right up.

I am guessing that this isn't the proper setting but I will continue to read up more.

Again, any feedback would be appreciated.

Thank you,

James

[ttocs]

Apr 4, 2020 19:27:18 GMT -5 Afford-HiFi said:

Hey All,

I figured out how to get it working for now. I changed the LCR to "small" vs "large". As soon as I did that the subwoofer fired right up.

I am guessing that this isn't the proper setting but I will continue to read up more.

Again, any feedback would be appreciated.

Thank you,

James

Heeeeeyyyyy, I was just typing slow to your first post! 

Glad you figured it out. Yes, you need some Small speakers for the sub to activate.

Also, setting the Center Sub to LFE makes it ONLY provide LFE and no other bass will be passed to this sub.

I only have the Left and Right set to Large in my system because they actually go as low as my subs. Everything else is set to Small.

Keep in mind that the Bass Management is pretty fancy in what you can make it do or not do, like which audio mode you use and such.

[Afford-HiFi]

Hey ttocs,

Awesome, thank you for the response!

I haven't played with the bass management yet. I figured I will spend quite a bit of time the next few days tweaking things.

Thank you,

James

[gobells]

Having your speakers set to small is not saying they are small low it's just telling the xmc to do bass management setting your fronts to large not doin no good for your system period all you doin is putting strain on your amp or your low powered reciever

[ttocs]

Apr 5, 2020 17:09:21 GMT -5 gobells said:

Having your speakers set to small is not saying they are small low it's just telling the xmc to do bass management setting your fronts to large not doin no good for your system period all you doin is putting strain on your amp or your low powered reciever

This is good advice for probably most setups with large main speakers. In the past I've set my previous Martin Logans to Small. My current speakers however are kinda different.

My power amps only power the electrostatic panels. My Martin Logan 13A speakers have electrostatic panels for everything above 350Hz, and dual woofers with dual built-in amps which have ARC calibration also built-in, and they sound fabulous! My subs can go down to 22Hz @ -6dB/30Hz @ -3dB, vs 24Hz +-3dB for my mains, however the mains actually calibrate to 22Hz @ -2dB in room. I really don't want to ruin what I have by using the bass management in the XMC-2 which only goes down to 40Hz which for me is way too high.

So, if I could learn a great way to integrate subs that can calibrate along with the speakers and improve upon what I have now, then that would perk up my ears! Other folks who have the same speakers are trying to figure out how to do the same. Martin Logan has subs with ARC built-in, but there's no way to marry the two together in the same calc, so it still needs manual tweaking to blend the subs with the 13A's.

When Dirac becomes available I'll see what can be done, but I think it'll take the optional add-on Bass Management from Dirac to make some progress so that's on my wish list.

These are my mains.

[megash0n]

Apr 5, 2020 18:18:15 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Apr 5, 2020 17:09:21 GMT -5 gobells said:

Having your speakers set to small is not saying they are small low it's just telling the xmc to do bass management setting your fronts to large not doin no good for your system period all you doin is putting strain on your amp or your low powered reciever

This is good advice for probably most setups with large main speakers. In the past I've set my previous Martin Logans to Small. My current speakers however are kinda different.

My power amps only power the electrostatic panels. My Martin Logan 13A speakers have electrostatic panels for everything above 350Hz, and dual woofers with dual built-in amps which have ARC calibration also built-in, and they sound fabulous! My subs can go down to 22Hz @ -6dB/30Hz @ -3dB, vs 24Hz +-3dB for my mains, however the mains actually calibrate to 22Hz @ -2dB in room. I really don't want to ruin what I have by using the bass management in the XMC-2 which only goes down to 40Hz which for me is way too high.

So, if I could learn a great way to integrate subs that can calibrate along with the speakers and improve upon what I have now, then that would perk up my ears! Other folks who have the same speakers are trying to figure out how to do the same. Martin Logan has subs with ARC built-in, but there's no way to marry the two together in the same calc, so it still needs manual tweaking to blend the subs with the 13A's.

When Dirac becomes available I'll see what can be done, but I think it'll take the optional add-on Bass Management from Dirac to make some progress so that's on my wish list.

These are my mains.

I think another consideration here is the concept of room modes and such. Even if a loudspeaker can produce flat responses at 30hz, their positioning in relation to your front wall may hit a room mode that creates a null or peak. I believe this is why most articles state you should cross over at 80hz because they assume most rooms are within some typical size. I'm leaving out a lot of detail and I'm paraphrasing, but there are good YouTube videos on this topic that will explain with much more detail and intelligence than I.
I'm simply suggesting an investigation into the matter. I'm crossing my T1s at 70hz currently because of their placement in the room even though they can play lower.

[ttocs]

Apr 5, 2020 18:26:20 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Apr 5, 2020 18:18:15 GMT -5 ttocs said:

This is good advice for probably most setups with large main speakers. In the past I've set my previous Martin Logans to Small. My current speakers however are kinda different.

My power amps only power the electrostatic panels. My Martin Logan 13A speakers have electrostatic panels for everything above 350Hz, and dual woofers with dual built-in amps which have ARC calibration also built-in, and they sound fabulous! My subs can go down to 22Hz @ -6dB/30Hz @ -3dB, vs 24Hz +-3dB for my mains, however the mains actually calibrate to 22Hz @ -2dB in room. I really don't want to ruin what I have by using the bass management in the XMC-2 which only goes down to 40Hz which for me is way too high.

So, if I could learn a great way to integrate subs that can calibrate along with the speakers and improve upon what I have now, then that would perk up my ears! Other folks who have the same speakers are trying to figure out how to do the same. Martin Logan has subs with ARC built-in, but there's no way to marry the two together in the same calc, so it still needs manual tweaking to blend the subs with the 13A's.

When Dirac becomes available I'll see what can be done, but I think it'll take the optional add-on Bass Management from Dirac to make some progress so that's on my wish list.

These are my mains.

I think another consideration here is the concept of room modes and such. Even if a loudspeaker can produce flat responses at 30hz, their positioning in relation to your front wall may hit a room mode that creates a null or peak. I believe this is why most articles state you should cross over at 80hz because they assume most rooms are within some typical size. I'm leaving out a lot of detail and I'm paraphrasing, but there are good YouTube videos on this topic that will explain with much more detail and intelligence than I.
I'm simply suggesting an investigation into the matter. I'm crossing my T1s at 70hz currently because of their placement in the room even though they can play lower.

Yes, this is good advice if there are issues. I'm blessed with an arrangement that performs very well. Even prior to calibration it was only the Left speaker that was down a few dB below 50Hz, after calibration it's great. 

And please trust me, I'm a firm believer in multiple subs for the reasons you point out. In my case though the only reason I would be interested in integrating subs with my mains is to get more feel below 24Hz. Above 24Hz I have no complaints at the 3 listening positions. It's all proper, balanced, bass with no boominess. Everything sounds very natural and real. My friends keep asking me if my subs are being used while listening to music, the answer is no.

In the past when my setup was aimed a different way and I had more walls I was not happy. No matter what I did I had nulls at the main listening position where I "wanted" the seating to be. I moved it to where it worked better, but this was not a good solution. After I removed some walls opening up the space and turned the system a different direction, BINGO! All of a sudden things couldn't sound bad. Full disclosure, I sit slightly nearfield and my speakers have extreme toe-in. I can't imagine being happier with the experience! But that doesn't mean I won't try.

I've got two 12" subs running in Dual Mono and again, they work very well for the movies even without Dirac. I have a third sub that I haven't used in years that I'm going to add at the back of the room for fun and experience. Wilson has the Audio Subsonic sub that is just for between 10-30Hz,  and if I win the lottery I could get a pair after I brace the floor to accommodate the additional 1200 pounds (600 each).

[KeithL]

The "proper" setting, and whether the subs will play, depend on your source.

If your main speakers are set to LARGE then you will only get sound on the LFE channel out of the sub.

Most surround sound movies use the LFE channel, but some streaming sources may not, and stereo sources DO NOT.

Other devices may have options that tell them not to use the LFE channel.

If you want sound out of your sub, with stereo sources, or sources that don't use the LFE channel, then you'll need to set your main speakers to SMALL.

Apr 4, 2020 19:27:18 GMT -5 Afford-HiFi said:

Hey All,

I figured out how to get it working for now. I changed the LCR to "small" vs "large". As soon as I did that the subwoofer fired right up.

I am guessing that this isn't the proper setting but I will continue to read up more.

Again, any feedback would be appreciated.

Thank you,

James

[Afford-HiFi]

Hey Keith,

Thank you for the reply.

Any chance you can provide a little more info? Streamed a movie tonight and didn't get any surround sound.

Any suggestions on this?

Thank you,

James

[KeithL]

The most useful source of information is going to be the Information screen on your XMC-2.

If it's showing that your source is sending surround sound, like Dolby TrueHD, or DTS, or even DD+, then you should usually have something going to your subwoofer.

If it shows that your source is something like PCM 2.0 or DD 2.0 then that's telling you that the LFE channel isn;t being used.

If you can tell us a little bit more about what you're seeing on the display then I'm sure there will be plenty of good suggestions to follow....

(You could also PM me if you like... I don't always read the forums consistently because things are a bit... out of the ordinary... at the moment.)

Apr 5, 2020 23:32:04 GMT -5 Afford-HiFi said:

Hey Keith,

Thank you for the reply.

Any chance you can provide a little more info? Streamed a movie tonight and didn't get any surround sound.

Any suggestions on this?

Thank you,

James

[ghost]

Hello all,
New owner of the RMC1 L. I came across this thread looking for issues with subwoofer output. I am pretty sure the setup is the same for both processors so I have an issue with subwoofer performance that I am hoping to get some help with. I am currently running 4 subs ( one in each corner). The room was pre-wired so I have two SB16 in the front of the room from the center subwoofer output using the daisy chain method. I have two HSU 15s in the rear of room. One is setup as left subwoofer and the other the right and I selected dual mono. The center Sub (subs) is set up as mono so that the rear subs would work with movies as well as music. I am running firmware version 1.9. My issue is that the sub or LFE level is not what it used to be with my previous receiver. I have all levels on the subs themselves set at past halfway. The SB16s are set at -9 DB and the levels on the processor is set well above 0 DB. The bass is nice and tight with good punch but no where near what it used to be with the Marantz receiver I replaced. I find myself adjusting the sub trim level during some moves to get to a satisfactory level of bass. With my old receiver the subs would be set at a quarter of the level they are at now and the processor would be set at below 0 DB. I used EMotiva XLR to RCA adaptors for all three sub outputs. The rest of the XLR cables are Monoprice and all the other speakers sound great. I would love any help anyone can offer. Is this just the way the Emotiva processors work?

[ttocs]

Apr 9, 2020 0:07:03 GMT -5 ghost said:

Hello all,
New owner of the RMC1 L. I came across this thread looking for issues with subwoofer output. I am pretty sure the setup is the same for both processors so I have an issue with subwoofer performance that I am hoping to get some help with. I am currently running 4 subs ( one in each corner). The room was pre-wired so I have two SB16 in the front of the room from the center subwoofer output using the daisy chain method. I have two HSU 15s in the rear of room. One is setup as left subwoofer and the other the right and I selected dual mono. The center Sub (subs) is set up as mono so that the rear subs would work with movies as well as music. I am running firmware version 1.9. My issue is that the sub or LFE level is not what it used to be with my previous receiver. I have all levels on the subs themselves set at past halfway. The SB16s are set at -9 DB and the levels on the processor is set well above 0 DB. The bass is nice and tight with good punch but no where near what it used to be with the Marantz receiver I replaced. I find myself adjusting the sub trim level during some moves to get to a satisfactory level of bass. With my old receiver the subs would be set at a quarter of the level they are at now and the processor would be set at below 0 DB. I used EMotiva XLR to RCA adaptors for all three sub outputs. The rest of the XLR cables are Monoprice and all the other speakers sound great. I would love any help anyone can offer. Is this just the way the Emotiva processors work?

So I'm guessing that the only changes are the RMC-1L and the new XLR and XLR-RCA cables? And that you were using RCA cables to the subs with the Marantz? If you were using XLR cables to the subs from the Marantz then this would account for a drop in output now that you're using XLR-RCA adapters.

[ghost]

Yes, the XLR adaptors are my thoughts as well but I find it hard to believe that the voltage drop would be that great. My subs accept XLR inputs but because my room was prewired with RCA cables I decided to go with the adaptors.

[ttocs]

Apr 9, 2020 7:37:27 GMT -5 ghost said:

Yes, the XLR adaptors are my thoughts as well but I find it hard to believe that the voltage drop would be that great. My subs accept XLR inputs but because my room was prewired with RCA cables I decided to go with the adaptors.

Balanced XLR connections use two Hot wires and thus have twice the signal vs RCA. But when it's converted to RCA, only one Hot wire is used resulting in half the signal. So a XLR to RCA adapter is the same amount of signal as RCA to RCA.

So the question really is - what has changed in your setup?

[cawgijoe]

Apr 9, 2020 0:07:03 GMT -5 ghost said:

Hello all,
New owner of the RMC1 L. I came across this thread looking for issues with subwoofer output. I am pretty sure the setup is the same for both processors so I have an issue with subwoofer performance that I am hoping to get some help with. I am currently running 4 subs ( one in each corner). The room was pre-wired so I have two SB16 in the front of the room from the center subwoofer output using the daisy chain method. I have two HSU 15s in the rear of room. One is setup as left subwoofer and the other the right and I selected dual mono. The center Sub (subs) is set up as mono so that the rear subs would work with movies as well as music. I am running firmware version 1.9. My issue is that the sub or LFE level is not what it used to be with my previous receiver. I have all levels on the subs themselves set at past halfway. The SB16s are set at -9 DB and the levels on the processor is set well above 0 DB. The bass is nice and tight with good punch but no where near what it used to be with the Marantz receiver I replaced. I find myself adjusting the sub trim level during some moves to get to a satisfactory level of bass. With my old receiver the subs would be set at a quarter of the level they are at now and the processor would be set at below 0 DB. I used EMotiva XLR to RCA adaptors for all three sub outputs. The rest of the XLR cables are Monoprice and all the other speakers sound great. I would love any help anyone can offer. Is this just the way the Emotiva processors work?

I'm assuming that you set up the speakers, including subs by measuring the distance to your main seating position and recorded that in your RMC....also, did you use a sound pressure level meter to set the speaker output levels?

With my XMC-2 and Rytkmik F12 sub, I did that but had to actually lower the output level a Db or so because my sub is in a corner and to my ears was a bit "hot". As with all of these setups, I had to boost the center channel for audibility. Nothing new, I've always had to do that.

If you have adjusted the sub levels to match by SPL meter and still feel they are on the low side, go back into the setup and manually set them higher to your liking. Once you back out of the menu, the settings should hold.

Apologies if this has all been done.

[markc]

Apr 9, 2020 9:56:05 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Apr 9, 2020 7:37:27 GMT -5 ghost said:

Yes, the XLR adaptors are my thoughts as well but I find it hard to believe that the voltage drop would be that great. My subs accept XLR inputs but because my room was prewired with RCA cables I decided to go with the adaptors.

Balanced XLR connections use two Hot wires and thus have twice the signal vs RCA. But when it's converted to RCA, only one Hot wire is used resulting in half the signal. So a XLR to RCA adapter is the same amount of signal as RCA to RCA.

So the question really is - what has changed in your setup?

Half the signal voltage equates to 6dB
(6dB volume increase equals a doubling of sound pressure)

Turning the subwoofer amp volume up 6 dB should compensate for for it getting an RCA input and the main speakers getting XLR

[megash0n]

Apr 9, 2020 11:23:30 GMT -5 markc said:

Apr 9, 2020 9:56:05 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Balanced XLR connections use two Hot wires and thus have twice the signal vs RCA. But when it's converted to RCA, only one Hot wire is used resulting in half the signal. So a XLR to RCA adapter is the same amount of signal as RCA to RCA.

So the question really is - what has changed in your setup?

Half the signal voltage equates to 6dB
(6dB volume increase equals a doubling of sound pressure)

Turning the subwoofer amp volume up 6 dB should compensate for for it getting an RCA input and the main speakers getting XLR

Couldn't this potentially lead to clipping though?

[ghost]

Apr 9, 2020 10:16:28 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Apr 9, 2020 0:07:03 GMT -5 ghost said:

Hello all,
New owner of the RMC1 L. I came across this thread looking for issues with subwoofer output. I am pretty sure the setup is the same for both processors so I have an issue with subwoofer performance that I am hoping to get some help with. I am currently running 4 subs ( one in each corner). The room was pre-wired so I have two SB16 in the front of the room from the center subwoofer output using the daisy chain method. I have two HSU 15s in the rear of room. One is setup as left subwoofer and the other the right and I selected dual mono. The center Sub (subs) is set up as mono so that the rear subs would work with movies as well as music. I am running firmware version 1.9. My issue is that the sub or LFE level is not what it used to be with my previous receiver. I have all levels on the subs themselves set at past halfway. The SB16s are set at -9 DB and the levels on the processor is set well above 0 DB. The bass is nice and tight with good punch but no where near what it used to be with the Marantz receiver I replaced. I find myself adjusting the sub trim level during some moves to get to a satisfactory level of bass. With my old receiver the subs would be set at a quarter of the level they are at now and the processor would be set at below 0 DB. I used EMotiva XLR to RCA adaptors for all three sub outputs. The rest of the XLR cables are Monoprice and all the other speakers sound great. I would love any help anyone can offer. Is this just the way the Emotiva processors work?

I'm assuming that you set up the speakers, including subs by measuring the distance to your main seating position and recorded that in your RMC....also, did you use a sound pressure level meter to set the speaker output levels?

With my XMC-2 and Rytkmik F12 sub, I did that but had to actually lower the output level a Db or so because my sub is in a corner and to my ears was a bit "hot". As with all of these setups, I had to boost the center channel for audibility. Nothing new, I've always had to do that.

If you have adjusted the sub levels to match by SPL meter and still feel they are on the low side, go back into the setup and manually set them higher to your liking. Once you back out of the menu, the settings should hold.

Apologies if this has all been done.

[ghost]

Thanks all for the replies. Yes I have done most of the recommended setup tips. After thinking about it the two subs in the rear sound about right. I actually set them pretty hot at 8 and 10 DB left and right respectively. Using the test tone and SPL meter I set them at around 80 DB but the two front subs are on the same output using a splitter and I set them at about 75 DB with both being measured at the same time. I believe this is where I am lacking the output I am used to. I set them a little lower because I didn’t want my music to sound too bass-ey. Taking into consideration the loss of signal output from the adaptor and also using splitter, this might be the problem. I will go back and adjust the levels on front sub output levels. Thanks all for your help. If anyone doesn’t mind sharing, if you are using multiple subs in your system what settings are you using in your processors? Do you have the center set to LFE or Mono? Do you have the crossover set to factory setting of 24DB or are you running it 12DB? Are your fronts set 80HZ or higher or lower. My fronts will handle 40 HZ easy but I usually have them set at 80HZ since I am unable to select LFE +mains or have the ability to set the subwoofer cutoff point which is usually 80 to 120 HZ. Just curious of what the majority settings are. Thanks again all!