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Post by tgeorge34 on Apr 4, 2020 22:30:41 GMT -5
I recently picked up a pair of xpa-100s. I currently have an xpa-5 that powered all 5 of my paradigm studio speakers. I bought the two xpa-100 as I thought I would be able bi-amp the front speakers. I thought this was the case, as the amp has two sets of speaker terminals on the back. But as Iām reading now, it seems that these two sets of speaker post are for bi-wiring.
Do I have that correct? How do I wire it down or get the amp to produce the 4ohm power? The speakers are 8ohm.
Thanks Tyler
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Post by Radblue on Apr 5, 2020 1:43:54 GMT -5
I recently picked up a pair of xpa-100s. I currently have an xpa-5 that powered all 5 of my paradigm studio speakers. I bought the two xpa-100 as I thought I would be able bi-amp the front speakers. I thought this was the case, as the amp has two sets of speaker terminals on the back. But as Iām reading now, it seems that these two sets of speaker post are for bi-wiring. Do I have that correct? How do I wire it down or get the amp to produce the 4ohm power? The speakers are 8ohm. Thanks Tyler With 4ohm speakers, the load dictates the output power. Or connect another 8ohm set in paralell to make a 4ohm load.
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 5, 2020 6:17:51 GMT -5
Hi Radblue - Those YOUR La Scalas in your avatar? I've never seen any before that were birch on top and black on the bottom. You do that yourself? What other mods have you done? tgeorge34, please forgive me for hijacking your thread with my questions to Radblue - I'd like to address your question too: If (and you want to check before you try this) your two XPA-100 amps and your XPA-5 have the same sensitivity, you might be able to bi-amplify your stereo speakers. Use the XPA-100 mono amps on either the bass or the treble of your speakers, and use two channels of the XPA-5 to power the other side. If the sensitivities of the amplifiers are different, then either the bass or the treble will end up louder, and this won't work. One important caveat to this plan - the terminal jumpers on the speakers MUST be removed if you try this. Connecting the grounds or red terminals of two different amplifiers is a recipe for serious amp damage. There is a "plan B." Remember that for stereo, the only speakers that matter are the front left and right. For movies, the only speakers that matter are the center and the sub - everything else is "effects only." That being the case, use the XPA-100 mono amps to drive the front R & L with bi-wired speaker wires. Use two of the five channels of your XPA-5 to bi-amplify your center. This gives you more power when listening to stereo, and more headroom to the center channel when doing movies. That's my best guess. Boomzilla
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 5, 2020 7:06:10 GMT -5
I recently picked up a pair of xpa-100s. I currently have an xpa-5 that powered all 5 of my paradigm studio speakers. I bought the two xpa-100 as I thought I would be able bi-amp the front speakers. I thought this was the case, as the amp has two sets of speaker terminals on the back. But as Iām reading now, it seems that these two sets of speaker post are for bi-wiring. Do I have that correct? How do I wire it down or get the amp to produce the 4ohm power? The speakers are 8ohm. Thanks Tyler Tyler, the 2 sets of terminals on each speaker can be used for bi-wiring OR bi-amping. I wanted to make sure I address that because I didn't see the others answer that. Where did you get the idea they are only for bi-wiring? As boomzilla noted, to biamp them, MAKE SURE to remove the jumpers. As for using the XPA-100 + the XPA-5 - you could but as Boom notes could be different levels. I've heard of many people here using a multichannel amp to do the bi-amping, so as boom note you could do that. The biggest question I have for you is...why do you want to biamp? Mark
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Post by Radblue on Apr 5, 2020 7:31:56 GMT -5
Hi Radblue - Those YOUR La Scalas in your avatar? I've never seen any before that were birch on top and black on the bottom. You do that yourself? What other mods have you done? Boomzilla Yes they're my LSII's but its not a birch top, it's a custom faceplate . My solution to the age old " grills on or off " question . The only other mod to them is Crietes CT-120 tweeters.
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 5, 2020 8:19:12 GMT -5
Yes they're my LSII's but its not a birch top, it's a custom faceplate . My solution to the age old " grills on or off " question . The only other mod to them is Crietes CT-120 tweeters. SWEET! I love La Scalas.
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Post by tgeorge34 on Apr 5, 2020 13:20:28 GMT -5
Hi Radblue - Those YOUR La Scalas in your avatar? I've never seen any before that were birch on top and black on the bottom. You do that yourself? What other mods have you done? tgeorge34, please forgive me for hijacking your thread with my questions to Radblue - I'd like to address your question too: If (and you want to check before you try this) your two XPA-100 amps and your XPA-5 have the same sensitivity, you might be able to bi-amplify your stereo speakers. Use the XPA-100 mono amps on either the bass or the treble of your speakers, and use two channels of the XPA-5 to power the other side. If the sensitivities of the amplifiers are different, then either the bass or the treble will end up louder, and this won't work. One important caveat to this plan - the terminal jumpers on the speakers MUST be removed if you try this. Connecting the grounds or red terminals of two different amplifiers is a recipe for serious amp damage. There is a "plan B." Remember that for stereo, the only speakers that matter are the front left and right. For movies, the only speakers that matter are the center and the sub - everything else is "effects only." That being the case, use the XPA-100 mono amps to drive the front R & L with bi-wired speaker wires. Use two of the five channels of your XPA-5 to bi-amplify your center. This gives you more power when listening to stereo, and more headroom to the center channel when doing movies. That's my best guess. Boomzilla Thanks for the ideas! I hadnt thought of that. When i purchased the XPA-100, I was thinking i could use both posts on the back, allowing me to bi-amp, and get it down to 4ohm. I guess my understanding of bi-amping was incorrect. But...the idea of using the XPA-100 for the bass on my speakers, and the XPA-5 for the treble....just might work! If not, then i might just stick with plan B.
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Post by tgeorge34 on Apr 5, 2020 13:24:54 GMT -5
I recently picked up a pair of xpa-100s. I currently have an xpa-5 that powered all 5 of my paradigm studio speakers. I bought the two xpa-100 as I thought I would be able bi-amp the front speakers. I thought this was the case, as the amp has two sets of speaker terminals on the back. But as Iām reading now, it seems that these two sets of speaker post are for bi-wiring. Do I have that correct? How do I wire it down or get the amp to produce the 4ohm power? The speakers are 8ohm. Thanks Tyler Tyler, the 2 sets of terminals on each speaker can be used for bi-wiring OR bi-amping. I wanted to make sure I address that because I didn't see the others answer that. Where did you get the idea they are only for bi-wiring? As boomzilla noted, to biamp them, MAKE SURE to remove the jumpers. As for using the XPA-100 + the XPA-5 - you could but as Boom notes could be different levels. I've heard of many people here using a multichannel amp to do the bi-amping, so as boom note you could do that. The biggest question I have for you is...why do you want to biamp? Mark That is a good question LOL. I saw these two XPA-100's for sale on craigslist the other day, and have always throught about bi-amping and bi-wiring. I realize there is a lot of conflicting opinions for both methods. I figured why we are all on lockdown due to the Coronavirus, not a better time to mess around and see if I can personally "hear" a difference. After doing some internet research, i became more confused, so i decided to go straight to the source to get some correct answers! Thanks guys
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Post by tgeorge34 on Apr 5, 2020 13:29:25 GMT -5
Hi Radblue - Those YOUR La Scalas in your avatar? I've never seen any before that were birch on top and black on the bottom. You do that yourself? What other mods have you done? tgeorge34, please forgive me for hijacking your thread with my questions to Radblue - I'd like to address your question too: If (and you want to check before you try this) your two XPA-100 amps and your XPA-5 have the same sensitivity, you might be able to bi-amplify your stereo speakers. Use the XPA-100 mono amps on either the bass or the treble of your speakers, and use two channels of the XPA-5 to power the other side. If the sensitivities of the amplifiers are different, then either the bass or the treble will end up louder, and this won't work. One important caveat to this plan - the terminal jumpers on the speakers MUST be removed if you try this. Connecting the grounds or red terminals of two different amplifiers is a recipe for serious amp damage. There is a "plan B." Remember that for stereo, the only speakers that matter are the front left and right. For movies, the only speakers that matter are the center and the sub - everything else is "effects only." That being the case, use the XPA-100 mono amps to drive the front R & L with bi-wired speaker wires. Use two of the five channels of your XPA-5 to bi-amplify your center. This gives you more power when listening to stereo, and more headroom to the center channel when doing movies. That's my best guess. Boomzilla Well it looks like plan B is the only option. Did a quick look...my XPA-5 in gen 1, and the XPA-100 are gen 2....3db gain difference.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 5, 2020 13:36:29 GMT -5
Tyler, the 2 sets of terminals on each speaker can be used for bi-wiring OR bi-amping. I wanted to make sure I address that because I didn't see the others answer that. Where did you get the idea they are only for bi-wiring? As boomzilla noted, to biamp them, MAKE SURE to remove the jumpers. As for using the XPA-100 + the XPA-5 - you could but as Boom notes could be different levels. I've heard of many people here using a multichannel amp to do the bi-amping, so as boom note you could do that. The biggest question I have for you is...why do you want to biamp? Mark That is a good question LOL. I saw these two XPA-100's for sale on craigslist the other day, and have always throught about bi-amping and bi-wiring. I realize there is a lot of conflicting opinions for both methods. I figured why we are all on lockdown due to the Coronavirus, not a better time to mess around and see if I can personally "hear" a difference. After doing some internet research, i became more confused, so i decided to go straight to the source to get some correct answers! Thanks guys It never hurts to try something (as long as you take off those jumpers!). Would you be doing this using some type of preamp/processor? Since you are talking about what sounds like a 5.1 system, I assume the answer is "yes. Aside from 4 vs 8 ohm (which I would not worry about), you also would need to sort out how to set the crossover frequency. If you have a pre/pro and it's 7.1-capable yet you are only running a 5.1 system - you might be able to run the XPA-100 off of the outputs from 2 of the pre-pro's outputs and use pre-pro to set crossover levels for the upper and lower parts of your fronts (or the center) and also use the pre-pro to set levels in balance (per Boom's caution). Here's a little info on that option: --->CLICK HERE<---boomzilla - your thoughts? Mark
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Post by tgeorge34 on Apr 5, 2020 15:25:12 GMT -5
That is a good question LOL. I saw these two XPA-100's for sale on craigslist the other day, and have always throught about bi-amping and bi-wiring. I realize there is a lot of conflicting opinions for both methods. I figured why we are all on lockdown due to the Coronavirus, not a better time to mess around and see if I can personally "hear" a difference. After doing some internet research, i became more confused, so i decided to go straight to the source to get some correct answers! Thanks guys It never hurts to try something (as long as you take off those jumpers!). Would you be doing this using some type of preamp/processor? Since you are talking about what sounds like a 5.1 system, I assume the answer is "yes. Aside from 4 vs 8 ohm (which I would not worry about), you also would need to sort out how to set the crossover frequency. If you have a pre/pro and it's 7.1-capable yet you are only running a 5.1 system - you might be able to run the XPA-100 off of the outputs from 2 of the pre-pro's outputs and use pre-pro to set crossover levels for the upper and lower parts of your fronts (or the center) and also use the pre-pro to set levels in balance (per Boom's caution). Here's a little info on that option: --->CLICK HERE<---boomzilla - your thoughts? Mark I am using a Marantz AV7704, which is 11.2. I like the idea of running then XPA-100 off of the different outputs from the Marantz. I might give that a try after i see if i can hear a difference in sound by "just" bi-wiring. Figured I would start with the easiest configuration and see where that leads me. Thanks again!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 5, 2020 15:44:42 GMT -5
It never hurts to try something (as long as you take off those jumpers!). Would you be doing this using some type of preamp/processor? Since you are talking about what sounds like a 5.1 system, I assume the answer is "yes. Aside from 4 vs 8 ohm (which I would not worry about), you also would need to sort out how to set the crossover frequency. If you have a pre/pro and it's 7.1-capable yet you are only running a 5.1 system - you might be able to run the XPA-100 off of the outputs from 2 of the pre-pro's outputs and use pre-pro to set crossover levels for the upper and lower parts of your fronts (or the center) and also use the pre-pro to set levels in balance (per Boom's caution). Here's a little info on that option: --->CLICK HERE<---boomzilla - your thoughts? Mark I am using a Marantz AV7704, which is 11.2. I like the idea of running then XPA-100 off of the different outputs from the Marantz. I might give that a try after i see if i can hear a difference in sound by "just" bi-wiring. Figured I would start with the easiest configuration and see where that leads me. Thanks again! Go ahead and try the bi-wire if you like. It's highly unlikely you will hear anything, but give it a go if you like. Just don't spend a lot on wire! Mark
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 5, 2020 17:52:50 GMT -5
...you also would need to sort out how to set the crossover frequency. If you have a pre/pro and it's 7.1-capable yet you are only running a 5.1 system - you might be able to run the XPA-100 off of the outputs from 2 of the pre-pro's outputs and use pre-pro to set crossover levels for the upper and lower parts of your fronts (or the center) and also use the pre-pro to set levels in balance (per Boom's caution)... boomzilla - your thoughts? Mark It could theoretically be done, but the waters get DEEP and quickly. What you have to remember is just because you have two sets of speaker terminals, you are not wired directly to the drivers. You STILL have the speakers' internal crossovers there. The idea of migrating the crossover to the processor ignores a bunch of factors: 1. Does the user know the crossover frequencies of the speakers? If not, then there will be no way to do what you suggest, Mark, without creating a hole or a peak in the frequency response. In other words, if the user-selected crossover frequency (the one used to program the processor) is different than the frequency selected by the speaker designer, things are NOT going to match up. 2. Even if the internal and processor frequencies are identical, how are the slopes implemented by the processor going to interact with the slopes of the speakers' internal crossovers? Phasing crossovers to produce smooth frequency response is not trivial. By trying to "second guess" the speaker designer's intent, using the processor's DSP to cross over upstream, is a whole different set of variables. 3. Should you be lucky enough to have the processor programmed to interfere minimally with the speaker's internal crossover, and to also manage the combined slopes of the "active"(processor) and "passive" (speaker-internal) crossovers so as to avoid peaks and dips, then you STILL have to compensate for the amplifiers' differing sensitivities by adding or cutting gain to the high-pass or low-pass sections. With a good analysis program (Room Equalization Wizard, for example) and a calibrated microphone (a UMIK-1, for example), this might be possible. But it wouldn't be easy, even for an experienced user. In short, I wouldn't recommend it. Boomzilla
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Post by audiobill on Apr 5, 2020 18:16:37 GMT -5
Why do you want to do this?
"How do I wire it down or get the amp to produce the 4ohm power?"
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Post by tgeorge34 on Apr 5, 2020 22:03:33 GMT -5
Why do you want to do this? "How do I wire it down or get the amp to produce the 4ohm power?" I just wanted to see if I noticed an improvement going from 250 watts at 8ohms vs 400 watts at 4.
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Post by tgeorge34 on Apr 5, 2020 22:04:47 GMT -5
...you also would need to sort out how to set the crossover frequency. If you have a pre/pro and it's 7.1-capable yet you are only running a 5.1 system - you might be able to run the XPA-100 off of the outputs from 2 of the pre-pro's outputs and use pre-pro to set crossover levels for the upper and lower parts of your fronts (or the center) and also use the pre-pro to set levels in balance (per Boom's caution)... boomzilla - your thoughts? Mark It could theoretically be done, but the waters get DEEP and quickly. What you have to remember is just because you have two sets of speaker terminals, you are not wired directly to the drivers. You STILL have the speakers' internal crossovers there. The idea of migrating the crossover to the processor ignores a bunch of factors: 1. Does the user know the crossover frequencies of the speakers? If not, then there will be no way to do what you suggest, Mark, without creating a hole or a peak in the frequency response. In other words, if the user-selected crossover frequency (the one used to program the processor) is different than the frequency selected by the speaker designer, things are NOT going to match up. 2. Even if the internal and processor frequencies are identical, how are the slopes implemented by the processor going to interact with the slopes of the speakers' internal crossovers? Phasing crossovers to produce smooth frequency response is not trivial. By trying to "second guess" the speaker designer's intent, using the processor's DSP to cross over upstream, is a whole different set of variables. 3. Should you be lucky enough to have the processor programmed to interfere minimally with the speaker's internal crossover, and to also manage the combined slopes of the "active"(processor) and "passive" (speaker-internal) crossovers so as to avoid peaks and dips, then you STILL have to compensate for the amplifiers' differing sensitivities by adding or cutting gain to the high-pass or low-pass sections. With a good analysis program (Room Equalization Wizard, for example) and a calibrated microphone (a UMIK-1, for example), this might be possible. But it wouldn't be easy, even for an experienced user. In short, I wouldn't recommend it. Boomzilla That was a little above my audio knowledge š. But I will take your word for it and not do it!
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Post by KeithL on Apr 5, 2020 23:10:09 GMT -5
I want to add another thing which you didn't mention.....
One of the main benefits of true bi-amping is that each driver is connected directly to the output of its amplifier. This allows the amplifier to control the driver very tightly.
The components that comprise the internal crossover of a speaker are electrically in series between the output of the amplifier and the speaker driver. This significantly reduces the effective damping factor at certain frequencies... and so reduces how tightly the amplifier can control the speaker. When you simply remove those "bi-amp jumpers" you are NOT addressing this negative effect.
Therefore "passive bi-amping" lacks one of the most important benefits of true bi-amping.
(In addition to everything else Boomzilla mentioned... which is also all true.)
...you also would need to sort out how to set the crossover frequency. If you have a pre/pro and it's 7.1-capable yet you are only running a 5.1 system - you might be able to run the XPA-100 off of the outputs from 2 of the pre-pro's outputs and use pre-pro to set crossover levels for the upper and lower parts of your fronts (or the center) and also use the pre-pro to set levels in balance (per Boom's caution)... boomzilla - your thoughts? Mark It could theoretically be done, but the waters get DEEP and quickly. What you have to remember is just because you have two sets of speaker terminals, you are not wired directly to the drivers. You STILL have the speakers' internal crossovers there. The idea of migrating the crossover to the processor ignores a bunch of factors: 1. Does the user know the crossover frequencies of the speakers? If not, then there will be no way to do what you suggest, Mark, without creating a hole or a peak in the frequency response. In other words, if the user-selected crossover frequency (the one used to program the processor) is different than the frequency selected by the speaker designer, things are NOT going to match up. 2. Even if the internal and processor frequencies are identical, how are the slopes implemented by the processor going to interact with the slopes of the speakers' internal crossovers? Phasing crossovers to produce smooth frequency response is not trivial. By trying to "second guess" the speaker designer's intent, using the processor's DSP to cross over upstream, is a whole different set of variables. 3. Should you be lucky enough to have the processor programmed to interfere minimally with the speaker's internal crossover, and to also manage the combined slopes of the "active"(processor) and "passive" (speaker-internal) crossovers so as to avoid peaks and dips, then you STILL have to compensate for the amplifiers' differing sensitivities by adding or cutting gain to the high-pass or low-pass sections. With a good analysis program (Room Equalization Wizard, for example) and a calibrated microphone (a UMIK-1, for example), this might be possible. But it wouldn't be easy, even for an experienced user. In short, I wouldn't recommend it. Boomzilla
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 5, 2020 23:22:42 GMT -5
...One of the main benefits of true bi-amping is that each driver is connected directly to the output of its amplifier. This allows the amplifier to control the driver very tightly. The components that comprise the internal crossover of a speaker are electrically in series between the output of the amplifier and the speaker driver. This significantly reduces the effective damping factor at certain frequencies... and so reduces how tightly the amplifier can control the speaker. When you simply remove those "bi-amp jumpers" you are NOT addressing this negative effect. AMEN, brother - and THAT is why self-powered loudspeakers (including Emotiva's) put their amplifiers DIRECTLY upstream of the drivers with no crossover components in between the amps and the drivers. Takes more amp modules, but has lots of technical benefits! Boom
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