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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 14:58:45 GMT -5
Hey all, I'm currently cycling through a demo disk full of DTS:X tracks and I noticing a some very odd behavior that potentially could lead to helping us determine if there are actually issues with this codec and the new Emotiva platforms. Does anyone know of a demo disk that could provide test tones encoded specifically in DTS:X for channel level matching or could someone author one? Any of you that have concerns about DTS:X sounded weird, and having to really crank up the volume... After going thru many different demos, I'm starting to think that the surround channels are playing the appropriate levels, but it is the center channel that is attenuated. There really isn't much balance and, quite frankly, most of these DTS:X tracks sound horrible. The surrounds are way louder and "discrete" than playing other codecs. I've noticed this watching certain movies, but without a ton of DTS:X content out there, it is rare I watch a movie that has it. I'm curious how many others experience something like what I am describing. This is specific to DTS:X. Not eq, not any other codec, not dialnorm, etc etc. (Just to hopefully eliminate any of those conversations that will derail this topic)
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 15:27:19 GMT -5
Ok, I didn't realize until I started researching this, but my DTS:X demo disc has an entire "call out" Section that cycles thru every channel. It has one for 7.1.4, 5.1.4, and many other things. Two things I have confirmed using my ears and an SPL meter: The channel call outs are not at all mapping to the appropriate channel and the SPL level isn't even close to the levels you get when performing the basic level checking in the RMC menu or using something like REW. There does seem to be significant issues with DTS:X implementation. Demo disk: www.demo-world.eu/2019/02/16/2019-dts-demo-disc-vol-23/
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Post by steelman1991 on Apr 5, 2020 16:56:23 GMT -5
Ok, I didn't realize until I started researching this, but my DTS:X demo disc has an entire "call out" Section that cycles thru every channel. It has one for 7.1.4, 5.1.4, and many other things. Two things I have confirmed using my ears and an SPL meter: The channel call outs are not at all mapping to the appropriate channel and the SPL level isn't even close to the levels you get when performing the basic level checking in the RMC menu or using something like REW. There does seem to be significant issues with DTS:X implementation. Demo disk: www.demo-world.eu/2019/02/16/2019-dts-demo-disc-vol-23/So many downloads buttons there and too many look like click bait - which is the correct one?
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 17:07:52 GMT -5
Ok, I didn't realize until I started researching this, but my DTS:X demo disc has an entire "call out" Section that cycles thru every channel. It has one for 7.1.4, 5.1.4, and many other things. Two things I have confirmed using my ears and an SPL meter: The channel call outs are not at all mapping to the appropriate channel and the SPL level isn't even close to the levels you get when performing the basic level checking in the RMC menu or using something like REW. There does seem to be significant issues with DTS:X implementation. Demo disk: www.demo-world.eu/2019/02/16/2019-dts-demo-disc-vol-23/So many downloads buttons there and too many look like click bait - which is the correct one? Sorry, this link was just to show what disk it is I am using and what each track is/does. I don't think you can download the disk itself. Pretty sure it is a paid for version only disc. If it doesn't violate anything, I could probably extract 1 or 2 or the tracks and upload them somewhere, but I'd say that is a copyright issue and frowned upon here.
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Post by steelman1991 on Apr 5, 2020 17:20:55 GMT -5
So many downloads buttons there and too many look like click bait - which is the correct one? Sorry, this link was just to show what disk it is I am using and what each track is/does. I don't think you can download the disk itself. Pretty sure it is a paid for version only disc. If it doesn't violate anything, I could probably extract 1 or 2 or the tracks and upload them somewhere, but I'd say that is a copyright issue and frowned upon here. No problem - there are some demo sites out there that allow downloading, thought this was one. When you say the "channel call outs are not at all mapping to the appropriate channel" - what exactly do you mean? Left Surround playing out Centre, Centre out Rear Left?
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 17:26:53 GMT -5
Sorry, this link was just to show what disk it is I am using and what each track is/does. I don't think you can download the disk itself. Pretty sure it is a paid for version only disc. If it doesn't violate anything, I could probably extract 1 or 2 or the tracks and upload them somewhere, but I'd say that is a copyright issue and frowned upon here. No problem - there are some demo sites out there that allow downloading, thought this was one. When you say the "channel call outs are not at all mapping to the appropriate channel" - what exactly do you mean? Left Surround playing out Centre, Centre out Rear Left? That's basically what I mean regarding the channel call outs. Also, the levels also do not match the levels when playing test tones thru the RMC menu. In my opinion, this explains why some of us think the sound is way off. Surround and height channels are 7 to 10 db different than the center for example. LF was about 6 db different from RF.
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 5, 2020 18:01:41 GMT -5
Hi MegashOn -
Yes, I've experienced the same using my Oppo to decode DTS:X discs (back when the Oppo was working...). Not only is the center channel diminished in output, but even if the soundtrack is down-mixed to two-channel stereo, the dialogue is practically inaudible. I'm not sure how this information applies to the Emotiva products, but I offer it as potentially pertinent regarding DTS:X.
Boomzilla
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 18:06:21 GMT -5
Hi MegashOn - Yes, I've experienced the same using my Oppo to decode DTS:X discs (back when the Oppo was working...). Not only is the center channel diminished in output, but even if the soundtrack is down-mixed to two-channel stereo, the dialogue is practically inaudible. I'm not sure how this information applies to the Emotiva products, but I offer it as potentially pertinent regarding DTS:X. Boomzilla Thank you sir! I definitely think the center is diminished, causing one to "turn it up", but given the surrounds seem to be louder by default.. It is very distracting and sounds like a mess. The only way I can describe it is to simply say to turn your surrounds up +10 db and watch something. They sound more "discrete" because they are louder. The RMC is the first device I've had that can decode these immersive codecs. It could very well not be Emotiva's problem at all, but given some of us are experiencing similar behavior out of Atmos tracks as well.. It seems worth a deep dive into the possible problem.
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 5, 2020 18:11:10 GMT -5
My gut suspicion is that there's some part of the DTS:X codec that just didn't get implemented by the playback equipment manufacturers. Certainly, the movie makers didn't INTEND that their soundtracks suck so bad? I don't know what to do about fixing this except to maybe create a processor "profile" specifically for DTS:X content that drops the surround levels or else boosts the center dialogue channel. If you get to the bottom of the problem, please post it here!
PS: YES! I also notice the same thing with Atmos tracks!
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 18:16:35 GMT -5
My gut suspicion is that there's some part of the DTS:X codec that just didn't get implemented by the playback equipment manufacturers. Certainly, the movie makers didn't INTEND that their soundtracks suck so bad? I don't know what to do about fixing this except to maybe create a processor "profile" specifically for DTS:X content that drops the surround levels or else boosts the center dialogue channel. If you get to the bottom of the problem, please post it here! PS: YES! I also notice the same thing with Atmos tracks! It's good to hear someone else with these issues. This could very well be what is behind this other dialnorm issue we are complaining about. Forcing dialnorm could just be making the other issue way more noticeable. This is why I've asked them to look into it because whether or not it is a dialnorm implementation or not... Something is definitely weird. Root cause analysis is necessary in my opinion. Thank you for your feedback good sir.
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 5, 2020 18:37:43 GMT -5
Quick comment, DTS-X doesn’t have a “centre” channel (like Atmos) it has a “dialogue” channel, where any non object oriented dialogue emanates from. Also worth keeping in mind that DTS-X doesn’t have “bed channels” (like Atmos has) all 12 channels (in a 7.1.4 set up) can be whatever you want them to be.
With the above in mind, I’d strongly suggest going back to basics on your DTS-X setting up.
Cheers Gary
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 18:40:46 GMT -5
Quick comment, DTS-X doesn’t have a “centre” channel (like Atmos) it has a “dialogue” channel, where any non object oriented dialogue emanates from. Cheers Gary Interesting. Good to know. I'll have to look into that. Is Atmos the same? Thank you
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 19:00:45 GMT -5
Quick comment, DTS-X doesn’t have a “centre” channel (like Atmos) it has a “dialogue” channel, where any non object oriented dialogue emanates from. Also worth keeping in mind that DTS-X doesn’t have “bed channels” (like Atmos has) all 12 channels (in a 7.1.4 set up) can be whatever you want them to be. With the above in mind, I’d strongly suggest going back to basics on your DTS-X setting up. Cheers Gary Thanks again Gary. I really haven't dug into these new formats much because I've not had a reason to until recently. I found some good information on this site: www.lifewire.com/dts-x-surround-sound-format-1847004I wonder if Emotiva would consider this: With DTS:X, the sound mixer has the ability to isolate the dialog as a separate object. If the sound mixer further decides to keep that object unlocked within a specific piece of content, and the home theater receiver manufacturer decides to include a dialog-only level function in the receiver that is part of the receiver's DTS:X implementation, the user then has the capability of adjusting the center channel dialog object completely independent from the other channel levels, adding more listening flexibility.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Apr 5, 2020 23:20:27 GMT -5
I think you're missing something here....
No, the guys who mix those movies don't want them to sound bad... However, they DO want you to turn up until the dialog is at a nice level that's easy-to-understand... That way, when the explosions occur, they are really loud by contrast, and blow you off the couch on your butt...
Delivering a wider dynamic range means making the quiet things quieter and the loud things louder...
And, in a modern action movie, the dialog, which is often just people taking at a normal level, is intended to be one of the quieter things.
(So, if they make you turn it up louder to hear the dialog, those big impressive explosions will be even bigger and more impressive.)
I should also point out that, especially when dialog isn't especially loud, it is an excellent test of both your center channel speaker, and the acoustics of your room. If both of those aren't "just-so" then the dialog is going to be difficult to understand. (Think about adding some absorption at that first bounce spot... like a nice throw rug on the floor in front of the center channel speaker.)
My gut suspicion is that there's some part of the DTS:X codec that just didn't get implemented by the playback equipment manufacturers. Certainly, the movie makers didn't INTEND that their soundtracks suck so bad? I don't know what to do about fixing this except to maybe create a processor "profile" specifically for DTS:X content that drops the surround levels or else boosts the center dialogue channel. If you get to the bottom of the problem, please post it here! PS: YES! I also notice the same thing with Atmos tracks!
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,901
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Post by KeithL on Apr 5, 2020 23:23:17 GMT -5
I believe there are still a few issues with some of the test tones not being at the correct levels... They DO NOT affect the actual output levels and are being addressed in the next firmware release... (I'm pretty sure they are fixed in the more recent beta versions... but not entirely fixed in the v1.9 release.)
No problem - there are some demo sites out there that allow downloading, thought this was one. When you say the "channel call outs are not at all mapping to the appropriate channel" - what exactly do you mean? Left Surround playing out Centre, Centre out Rear Left? That's basically what I mean regarding the channel call outs. Also, the levels also do not match the levels when playing test tones thru the RMC menu. In my opinion, this explains why some of us think the sound is way off. Surround and height channels are 7 to 10 db different than the center for example. LF was about 6 db different from RF.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 6, 2020 0:03:13 GMT -5
I believe there are still a few issues with some of the test tones not being at the correct levels... They DO NOT affect the actual output levels and are being addressed in the next firmware release... (I'm pretty sure they are fixed in the more recent beta versions... but not entirely fixed in the v1.9 release.)
That's basically what I mean regarding the channel call outs. Also, the levels also do not match the levels when playing test tones thru the RMC menu. In my opinion, this explains why some of us think the sound is way off. Surround and height channels are 7 to 10 db different than the center for example. LF was about 6 db different from RF. Keith, I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying here. Are you saying that, using the RMC levels section will result in improper levels across the channels, or are you suggesting that the demo disc I am using is faulty? I am assuming the first. This might explain why we are experiencing very odd behavior from certain source material. Could you also look into the issue we are seeing with channel mapping irregularities with, at minimum, DTS:X tracks? One example is that the left and right height sounds are coming out of the left and right surround speakers. All height and surround speakers are considerably louder than the front 3. The left channel is about 6db hotter than the center and right channel. Now, I'm sure if all my channels were absolutely precise, there could be a smaller gap, but I use the RMC to level match first before I do any measurements.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 6, 2020 0:13:05 GMT -5
I think you're missing something here....
No, the guys who mix those movies don't want them to sound bad... However, they DO want you to turn up until the dialog is at a nice level that's easy-to-understand... That way, when the explosions occur, they are really loud by contrast, and blow you off the couch on your butt...
Delivering a wider dynamic range means making the quiet things quieter and the loud things louder...
And, in a modern action movie, the dialog, which is often just people taking at a normal level, is intended to be one of the quieter things.
(So, if they make you turn it up louder to hear the dialog, those big impressive explosions will be even bigger and more impressive.)
I should also point out that, especially when dialog isn't especially loud, it is an excellent test of both your center channel speaker, and the acoustics of your room. If both of those aren't "just-so" then the dialog is going to be difficult to understand. (Think about adding some absorption at that first bounce spot... like a nice throw rug on the floor in front of the center channel speaker.)
My gut suspicion is that there's some part of the DTS:X codec that just didn't get implemented by the playback equipment manufacturers. Certainly, the movie makers didn't INTEND that their soundtracks suck so bad? I don't know what to do about fixing this except to maybe create a processor "profile" specifically for DTS:X content that drops the surround levels or else boosts the center dialogue channel. If you get to the bottom of the problem, please post it here! PS: YES! I also notice the same thing with Atmos tracks! While I appreciate the feedback, this issue isn't present on non-immersive sound tracks. All my speakers are Emotiva speakers. RMC, 2 XPAs, and full Emotiva speakers. I have 6 2 inch absorption panels. The room is far from perfect, but I don't know how to explain these issues any better. If you turn up the volume, 10-15 db louder than normal DD for example, the surround and object channels are extremely loud, sound "too discrete" due to loudness, and just flat out ruin the soundtrack. This isn't something I'm being nitpicky on... It's pretty bad. I honestly cringe when a movie I want to watch is DTS:X because I know it is going to sound awful. Dolby Atmos is better, but the dialogue often is greatly overtaken by so much distraction by the other channels. As I've already said, non-immersive tracks do not behave this way and sound fantastic. John Wick is an example of a movie that everyone thinks sounds amazing. The Atmos track sounds awful to me. I've listened to a non Atmos version and it sounds much more balanced and good. I understand your point about dynamics. This isn't that. I thoroughly enjoy dynamics in a sound track. This is like someone just beating pots and pans in the kitchen nonstop while you are trying to carry on a conversation. ☺
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Post by megash0n on Apr 6, 2020 22:30:48 GMT -5
I'm finding some interesting details on all this depending on how you have your heights configured and your channel count. I need more research and to test some more this week before I say much more.
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Post by hsamwel on Apr 7, 2020 22:17:55 GMT -5
I'm finding some interesting details on all this depending on how you have your heights configured and your channel count. I need more research and to test some more this week before I say much more. I think this have been discussed on other sites. DTS:X movies are more geared to use front/rear heights than atmos top front/heights. Even though the front/rear heights of DTS is in the same ”place” as atmos top front/rear. This causes DTS:X movies to sound worse in a atmos speaker configuration. What I have read is that this is up to each prepro/avr maker to setup internally. Don’t know if Emotiva has done any of these fixes regarding DTS:X, but I doubt it. It would be best to have separate speaker configuration optimized to each format. This way the angles (azimuth) would be perfectly correct regarding your speaker placement.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 8, 2020 3:16:26 GMT -5
I'm finding some interesting details on all this depending on how you have your heights configured and your channel count. I need more research and to test some more this week before I say much more. I think this have been discussed on other sites. DTS:X movies are more geared to use front/rear heights than atmos top front/heights. Even though the front/rear heights of DTS is in the same ”place” as atmos top front/rear. This causes DTS:X movies to sound worse in a atmos speaker configuration. What I have read is that this is up to each prepro/avr maker to setup internally. Don’t know if Emotiva has done any of these fixes regarding DTS:X, but I doubt it. It would be best to have separate speaker configuration optimized to each format. This way the angles (azimuth) would be perfectly correct regarding your speaker placement. I agree with your idea about different configurations per codec. I was going to recommend the same. Your statements are essentially what I found as well, but I haven't had the time to go through testing yet. I do believe it is causing what I referred to as channel mapping issues.
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