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Post by quattroll on Apr 23, 2020 13:15:46 GMT -5
Hi Lounge,
I just found out about the Wyred4Sound Remedy and am doung some research on it. The fundamental premise is interesting and there are some reviewers who stand wholeheartedly behind this type of unit.
For me, this type of product could be worth checking out as I listen to AppleTV music and sirius xm on the optical output to my dc-1, xpa-1ls, and Magnepan.7s. I think it sounds pretty good as is, but let’s face it, the AppleTV is not really audiophile. I used to think 1-0s are the same as long as they get where they are going, but when you consider the correct timing of those 1-0s, maybe there is room for improvement. I tend to stay away from subjective upgrades, but this is objective, like going for a fully differential set up.
Thanks for any input and opinions. Peter
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 23, 2020 14:23:08 GMT -5
Not beyond your existing gear.....just another journey into audio foolery.
Bill
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Post by alexreusch on Apr 23, 2020 16:28:44 GMT -5
E.J. Sarmento of Wyred4Sound builds some amazing stuff @ reasonable budget. I have a colleague who owns the modified W4S Sonos Connect and is super happy with it. The Remedy is a based on the same principles. If it works for your solution? I think the best way is to try it out and test it. W4S has a great return policy, so there is no risk involved with it. If you like it, than keep it. Otherwise, return it. In general, AppleTV music and services such as SiriusXM are not really high quality streaming services and for sure, there are better alternatives such as Tidal and Qobuz. But hey, if you like it, than no problem. As I said: Give the Remedy a try, you risk nothing.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 23, 2020 17:44:48 GMT -5
I like EJ and Wyred’s products, and I also use TV for casual listening, either Amazon HD or from my library. But in that it resamples everything to 48/24, I can’t see trying to go all out with an exotic DAC to pair with it.
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Post by vcautokid on Apr 23, 2020 17:46:38 GMT -5
Actually if you run asynchronous the stream is clocked at the destination. Not sure it really matters. I am sure someone smarter than me will say.😎
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Post by quattroll on Apr 23, 2020 19:24:42 GMT -5
Thanks, I should probably at least look at Amazon HD, but of course I would need a better delivery system, i.e. not AppleTV. Wonder what that is.
I need to do some research on the high rez thing. Funny how I’ve never really understood it. I’d appreciate a quick primer if someone could do it. I’m interested in affordable options. Thanks.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,902
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Post by KeithL on Apr 23, 2020 22:31:39 GMT -5
The subject of USB audio re-clocking is one that is still hotly debated - even though it's been around for many years now. Yes some of them make a measurable difference. But the measurements say that the difference is absurdly small. (Your car also gets slightly better gas mileage when it's freshly waxed... and slightly worse mileage due to the weight of a full tank of gas.)
The idea of "audio re-clockers" basically revolves around four questions:
1) Are even the reasonably small amounts of jitter present in most modern digital audio gear actually audible? 2) Is there an audible amount of jitter present in the output of the particular piece of gear in question? 3) Will the additional device actually improve it?
4) Will that improvement be audible?
It might also be worth adding another question..... Was the audio I'm listening to recorded at such a high quality that this difference will be audible with it?
And, of course, the big question, which is...... Since USB audio is a packet based system, and so has an inherently high amount of jitter, how much benefit will reducing that slightly really make?
The DC-1 already includes an ASRC, which is a type of re-clocker, and whose purpose is to do exactly that (reduce jitter). This is in addition to the fact that its asynch USB input is essentially immune to jitter to begin with.
So, you could start by switching the ASRC in the DC-1 On and Off, and seeing if you find the difference significant. (You do that by selecting "Asynch Mode" and "Synch Mode".... which is not really what they should be labelled. "Asynch mode" means "ASRC On".)
IF you hear a major difference when the DC-1 is in "Asynch Mode" - which means its ASRC re-clocker is engaged.... Then you are hearing the difference re-clocking the audio signal is making.
THEN you might hope that the re-clocker that someone else sells MIGHT do an even better job. However, if you don't notice a huge difference there, then you should understand that what you're talking about is the possibility of an even smaller difference. (And make your decision about buying yet another audio gadget accordingly.)
Incidentally, the SiriusXM audio stream used for their radio transmissions is not especially high in quality to begin with, so trying to make it better is somewhat of a losing battle. Details are difficult to find... and may even vary between stations... but everybody seems to agree that SiriusXM RADIO uses a lossy CODEC that sounds about as good as 128k MP3. There is even less information about the CODEC they use for streaming... but note that they never even claim that it is "lossless" or "CD quality"...
(I didn't look all that hard... but I can confirm from personal experience that it just plain doesn't sound very good at all.... )
Hi Lounge, I just found out about the Wyred4Sound Remedy and am doung some research on it. The fundamental premise is interesting and there are some reviewers who stand wholeheartedly behind this type of unit. For me, this type of product could be worth checking out as I listen to AppleTV music and sirius xm on the optical output to my dc-1, xpa-1ls, and Magnepan.7s. I think it sounds pretty good as is, but let’s face it, the AppleTV is not really audiophile. I used to think 1-0s are the same as long as they get where they are going, but when you consider the correct timing of those 1-0s, maybe there is room for improvement. I tend to stay away from subjective upgrades, but this is objective, like going for a fully differential set up. Thanks for any input and opinions. Peter
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Post by mauriceminor on Apr 23, 2020 23:35:34 GMT -5
The subject of USB audio re-clocking is one that is still hotly debated - even though it's been around for many years now. Yes some of them make a measurable difference. But the measurements say that the difference is absurdly small. (Your car also gets slightly better gas mileage when it's freshly waxed... and slightly worse mileage due to the weight of a full tank of gas.)
The idea of "audio re-clockers" basically revolves around four questions:
1) Are even the reasonably small amounts of jitter present in most modern digital audio gear actually audible? 2) Is there an audible amount of jitter present in the output of the particular piece of gear in question? 3) Will the additional device actually improve it?
4) Will that improvement be audible? It might also be worth adding another question..... Was the audio I'm listening to recorded at such a high quality that this difference will be audible with it? And, of course, the big question, which is...... Since USB audio is a packet based system, and so has an inherently high amount of jitter, how much benefit will reducing that slightly really make?
The DC-1 already includes an ASRC, which is a type of re-clocker, and whose purpose is to do exactly that (reduce jitter). This is in addition to the fact that its asynch USB input is essentially immune to jitter to begin with.
So, you could start by switching the ASRC in the DC-1 On and Off, and seeing if you find the difference significant. (You do that by selecting "Asynch Mode" and "Synch Mode".... which is not really what they should be labelled. "Asynch mode" means "ASRC On".) IF you hear a major difference when the DC-1 is in "Asynch Mode" - which means its ASRC re-clocker is engaged.... Then you are hearing the difference re-clocking the audio signal is making.
THEN you might hope that the re-clocker that someone else sells MIGHT do an even better job. However, if you don't notice a huge difference there, then you should understand that what you're talking about is the possibility of an even smaller difference. (And make your decision about buying yet another audio gadget accordingly.) Incidentally, the SiriusXM audio stream used for their radio transmissions is not especially high in quality to begin with, so trying to make it better is somewhat of a losing battle. Details are difficult to find... and may even vary between stations... but everybody seems to agree that SiriusXM RADIO uses a lossy CODEC that sounds about as good as 128k MP3. There is even less information about the CODEC they use for streaming... but note that they never even claim that it is "lossless" or "CD quality"...
(I didn't look all that hard... but I can confirm from personal experience that it just plain doesn't sound very good at all.... )
Hi Lounge, I just found out about the Wyred4Sound Remedy and am doung some research on it. The fundamental premise is interesting and there are some reviewers who stand wholeheartedly behind this type of unit. For me, this type of product could be worth checking out as I listen to AppleTV music and sirius xm on the optical output to my dc-1, xpa-1ls, and Magnepan.7s. I think it sounds pretty good as is, but let’s face it, the AppleTV is not really audiophile. I used to think 1-0s are the same as long as they get where they are going, but when you consider the correct timing of those 1-0s, maybe there is room for improvement. I tend to stay away from subjective upgrades, but this is objective, like going for a fully differential set up. Thanks for any input and opinions. Peter The special sauce reveled: Meguiar's 26 yellow wax, one Imperial gallon of petrol, and a microRendu.
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Post by alexreusch on Apr 24, 2020 8:17:12 GMT -5
Thanks, I should probably at least look at Amazon HD, but of course I would need a better delivery system, i.e. not AppleTV. Wonder what that is. I need to do some research on the high rez thing. Funny how I’ve never really understood it. I’d appreciate a quick primer if someone could do it. I’m interested in affordable options. Thanks. KeithL brought up a very good point: "Was the audio I'm listening to recorded at such a high quality that this difference will be audible with it?" I think this is a really important one. sh** in = sh** out. Streaming services using lossy audio codecs are not that bad. Yes, there is a difference to lossless CD quality and above, but there are a lot of other things you should take care of first. Of course, if you go too extreme (like SiriusXM based on 128kbps or lower), then the difference becomes obvious and very well noticeable. I highly recommend the blogs of John Darko, here the most important 3 focus points for beginners: darko.audio/2020/03/three-points-of-focus-for-the-beginner-audiophile/Also have a look at the YouTube video in the article (8 things to ignore). I hope this helps. There are great streaming devices @ reasonable budget available, which are as easy to use as an AppleTV, but can make a huge difference (depending on your setup) in sound quality. Most of them offer a broad choice of supported streaming services. Don't only look for services that offer superior streaming quality. Instead, check if the catalog matches your taste of music. Again, the recording matters more than the streaming quality.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 24, 2020 9:36:01 GMT -5
Also, be sure your "delivery mechanism" For Amazon HD actually supports HD. The Xbox for example does not. ( Shame on them and Amazon) A PC will. Some devices do. Just be sure to check a list. I love Amazon HD. I use the Windows App off of my HTPC. Sounds fantastic.
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Post by audiobill on Apr 24, 2020 9:50:29 GMT -5
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Post by quattroll on Apr 24, 2020 13:01:30 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input guys. I will check out Darko, I watch him too. But haven’t seen that video. I’m going to try the Wyred Remedy, just ordered yesterday. Maybe I pulled the trigger too early, but Darko was enthusiastic.
I know AppleTV gets a lot of criticism for its quality, but it is highly convenient, especially if you have an older plasma like me. But I’m using on of the skinny black ones that still has optical out, that is why the Remedy could be nice.
Too bad about SiriusXM. I have it because it is nice in my car, not driving much now! Also I like the dj channels.
Keith and others right on knowing what the signal is and its quality and limits on what can be improved or not.
I have Prime and a Surface Pro, sounds like I can usb out of that to my DC-1. Maybe I return the Remedy, but it still may have a place for Prime video, netflix, and even YouTube. We will see, it was 299 and shipping no tax, but maybe 20% restocking.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 24, 2020 13:50:23 GMT -5
Thanks, I should probably at least look at Amazon HD, but of course I would need a better delivery system, i.e. not AppleTV. Wonder what that is. I need to do some research on the high rez thing. Funny how I’ve never really understood it. I’d appreciate a quick primer if someone could do it. I’m interested in affordable options. Thanks. I use Amazon HD on TV, Mac mini, iPhone, and iPad, the mini is my best source. I enjoy the music selection and the sound quality, their minimum resolution is CD quality (44/16) which they call HD, they also have music in higher resolutions (96/24 and 192/24) which they call UHD. I generally find them all to sound very good. However, like iTunes, the Amazon HD App isn’t perfect on either Mac or PC in that it uses the system sample rate & depth, that is, if your system is set to 44/16 and a song in 96/24 is played, it will be resampled to the lower resolution. If you set your resolution to 192/24 and a 96/24 song is played it will again be resampled. TV does the same thing, it was designed to play movies and television, whose audio is 48/24, so it resamples all music and sounds to that rate and depth. Ideally you would want your music played ‘bit perfect’ in its native resolution (without resampling), but that’s easier said than done and it still sounds very good (including TV). I understand Denon has a technology that allows bit perfect reproduction of Amazon HD. What matters more than any of this is how well the album is recorded, produced, mastered (and if the music’s any good 🙂), so don’t get too hung up on the details to start with.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 24, 2020 14:09:44 GMT -5
Also, be sure your "delivery mechanism" For Amazon HD actually supports HD. The Xbox for example does not. ( Shame on them and Amazon) A PC will. Some devices do. Just be sure to check a list. I love Amazon HD. I use the Windows App off of my HTPC. Sounds fantastic. Unless something has changed recently, Amazon HD on a PC still does not support exclusive mode, WASAPI, etc. and resamples as I mentioned above. I think everyone may not agree on that definition of 'bit perfect'. The AirPort Express resamples all signals to 44/16. So if you're listening to ripped CD's or streaming with CD quality, then yes, it is bit perfect; but if you have other resolutions (higher or lower), then I wouldn't call it 'bit perfect'. That said, I also use an AirPort Express to stream music from my iPhone or iPad, and it sounds very good (as does the TV). I typically don't disparage any of Apple's products as I use them (almost) exclusively, but I will still point out what I believe to be their shortcomings (whether I can hear the difference or not).
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Post by megash0n on Apr 24, 2020 14:16:27 GMT -5
Also, be sure your "delivery mechanism" For Amazon HD actually supports HD. The Xbox for example does not. ( Shame on them and Amazon) A PC will. Some devices do. Just be sure to check a list. I love Amazon HD. I use the Windows App off of my HTPC. Sounds fantastic. Unless something has changed recently, Amazon HD on a PC still does not support exclusive mode, WASAPI, etc. and resamples as I mentioned above. I think everyone may not agree on that definition of 'bit perfect'. The AirPort Express resamples all signals to 44/16. So if you're listening to ripped CD's or streaming with CD quality, then yes, it is bit perfect; but if you have other resolutions (higher or lower), then I wouldn't call it 'bit perfect'. That said, I also use an AirPort Express to stream music from my iPhone or iPad, and it sounds very good (as does the TV). I typically don't disparage any of Apple's products as I use them (almost) exclusively, but I will still point out what I believe to be their shortcomings (whether I can hear the difference or not). For sure. Annoying as hell. I've emailed support about that. It unfortunately doesn't engage exclusive mode, but I set my soundcard for 24bit 192khz for shared mode. While not perfect, it is still good and much better than non HD.
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Post by quattroll on Apr 24, 2020 14:20:28 GMT -5
Thanks, I should probably at least look at Amazon HD, but of course I would need a better delivery system, i.e. not AppleTV. Wonder what that is. I need to do some research on the high rez thing. Funny how I’ve never really understood it. I’d appreciate a quick primer if someone could do it. I’m interested in affordable options. Thanks. I use Amazon HD on TV, Mac mini, iPhone, and iPad, the mini is my best source. I enjoy the music selection and the sound quality, their minimum resolution is CD quality (44/16) which they call HD, they also have music in higher resolutions (96/24 and 192/24) which they call UHD. I generally find them all to sound very good. However, like iTunes, the Amazon HD App isn’t perfect on either Mac or PC in that it uses the system sample rate & depth, that is, if your system is set to 44/16 and a song in 96/24 is played, it will be resampled to the lower resolution. If you set your resolution to 192/24 and a 96/24 song is played it will again be resampled. TV does the same thing, it was designed to play movies and television, whose audio is 48/24, so it resamples all music and sounds to that rate and depth. Ideally you would want your music played ‘bit perfect’ in its native resolution (without resampling), but that’s easier said than done and it still sounds very good (including TV). I understand Denon has a technology that allows bit perfect reproduction of Amazon HD. What matters more than any of this is how well the album is recorded, produced, mastered (and if the music’s any good 🙂), so don’t get too hung up on the details to start with.
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Post by quattroll on Apr 24, 2020 14:23:26 GMT -5
I use Amazon HD on TV, Mac mini, iPhone, and iPad, the mini is my best source. I enjoy the music selection and the sound quality, their minimum resolution is CD quality (44/16) which they call HD, they also have music in higher resolutions (96/24 and 192/24) which they call UHD. I generally find them all to sound very good. However, like iTunes, the Amazon HD App isn’t perfect on either Mac or PC in that it uses the system sample rate & depth, that is, if your system is set to 44/16 and a song in 96/24 is played, it will be resampled to the lower resolution. If you set your resolution to 192/24 and a 96/24 song is played it will again be resampled. TV does the same thing, it was designed to play movies and television, whose audio is 48/24, so it resamples all music and sounds to that rate and depth. Ideally you would want your music played ‘bit perfect’ in its native resolution (without resampling), but that’s easier said than done and it still sounds very good (including TV). I understand Denon has a technology that allows bit perfect reproduction of Amazon HD. What matters more than any of this is how well the album is recorded, produced, mastered (and if the music’s any good 🙂), so don’t get too hung up on the details to start with. This is very helpful thanks. I want to avoid the resampling for sure. Now I know I will run into it via the Appletv or windows. Checking out the Denon Heos, if this is true, problem solved!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 24, 2020 14:46:06 GMT -5
This is very helpful thanks. I want to avoid the resampling for sure. Now I know I will run into it via the Appletv or windows. Checking out the Denon Heos, if this is true, problem solved! If you already own a Denon product with Heos, then yes, good solution, but I'd hate to buy a piece of hardware based on one streaming service.
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Post by audiobill on Apr 24, 2020 17:56:40 GMT -5
Hi res? What a very quaint notion..,,
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Post by quattroll on Apr 24, 2020 18:08:04 GMT -5
Well I wasted a lot of time today trying to figure out options, and for now I think trying Amazon HD and seeing what I can get out of it should be done, heck 90 day trial. And I’m waiting on the Wyred Remedy, which I understand is old but could make a difference, and If it does I’ll be happy. Even if the AppleTV feed is not “high res”, it’s still enjoyable. Not paying for another service is nice too.
Interesting how implementation is all over the place, and how polarizing some of the equipment is, not to mention how expensive. Expensive niche equipment is almost always obsolete soon. Wish I could think of examples right now.
On a related note, the receivers and integrated amps I see with Bluetooth, what quality is that? I guess it depends what you are sending, anyone Bluetooth AppleMusic? What’s happening there?
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