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Post by ttocs on May 4, 2020 4:07:28 GMT -5
Having issues with TiVo when set to Dolby Audio so I'm trying PCM. Normal TiVo cable channels are reported as PCM 2.0 incoming on XMC-2, and Dolby Surround output.
However, when the Netflix 4K App is selected on the TiVo box the incoming audio is now DD+, and the output is ATMOS.
How is this possible?
Is there upmixing being employed?
Does the Netflix app take control of the audio and make it what it needs? If so, then this is what I would prefer.
When I go to Prime Video the incoming audio is PCM 2.0, and the outbound is DD Surround. So this is the same as watching normal cable channels.
This matters because the TiVo EDGE functions better in day to day usage while using PCM. It's less stable with Dolby Audio when using fast forward, skip, replay, etc, plus it causes noises with these features and none of these bad issues occur with PCM audio, also never happened with the Roamio Pro.
edit: When the TiVo is set to Dolby Audio the same incoming/outgoing audio is reported by the XMC-2: DD+/ATMOS.
Also, in normal cable tv the audio is 5.1 max. So it's only the apps that are getting more audio channels.
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 4, 2020 4:40:00 GMT -5
Having issues with TiVo when set to Dolby Audio so I'm trying PCM. Normal TiVo cable channels are reported as PCM 2.0 incoming on XMC-2, and Dolby Surround output. However, when the Netflix 4K App is selected on the TiVo box the incoming audio is now DD+, and the output is ATMOS. How is this possible? Is there upmixing being employed? Does the Netflix app take control of the audio and make it what it needs? If so, then this is what I would prefer. When I go to Prime Video the incoming audio is PCM 2.0, and the outbound is DD Surround. So this is the same as watching normal cable channels. This matters because the TiVo EDGE functions better in day to day usage while using PCM. It's less stable with Dolby Audio when using fast forward, skip, replay, etc, plus it causes noises with these features and none of these bad issues occur with PCM audio, also never happened with the Roamio Pro. edit: When the TiVo is set to Dolby Audio the same incoming/outgoing audio is reported by the XMC-2: DD+/ATMOS. Also, in normal cable tv the audio is 5.1 max. So it's only the apps that are getting more audio channels. TV4K decodes the audio to PCM and if it contains Atmos sends it in Dolby MAT format, typically the RMC/XMC reports this as Atmos and TrueHD. We’ve discussed before that streaming devices are lossy and don’t send TrueHD, but the processors are interpreting the decoded signal as that (other brands sometimes report it as Atmos and PCM 7.0). If the TiVo also uses MAT when set to PCM, then Atmos and DD+ is actually a more accurate representation of the original signal as DD+ w/Atmos (EAC3) is how it’s carried. I’m assuming when it’s set to ‘Dolby’ it’s sending a bitstream, so possibly the RMC/XMC isn’t handling the bitstream as well as the Tivo does. In any case if PCM is giving you the proper audio format, including Atmos, and works better, I’d keep it there. That method (though eschewed by purists) works well for TV4K. Edit: You say the Prime App on TiVo reports PCM 2.0 and Surround, is this also true when watching something with Atmos? I believe Prime on TV reports TrueHD/Atmos. Edit 2: I’ve just recently upgraded my Netflix account so I can get 4K & Atmos, that now allows me to ‘experience’ the TV/Netflix moving center channel bug, I assume you don’t hear that with TiVo/Netflix? |
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Post by ttocs on May 4, 2020 6:00:01 GMT -5
TV4K decodes the audio to PCM and if it contains Atmos sends it in Dolby MAT format, typically the RMC/XMC reports this as Atmos and TrueHD. We’ve discussed before that streaming devices are lossy and don’t send TrueHD, but the processors are interpreting the decoded signal as that (other brands sometimes report it as Atmos and PCM 7.0). If the TiVo also uses MAT when set to PCM, then Atmos and DD+ is actually a more accurate representation of the original signal as DD+ w/Atmos (EAC3) is how it’s carried. I’m assuming when it’s set to ‘Dolby’ it’s sending a bitstream, so possibly the RMC/XMC isn’t handling the bitstream as well as the Tivo does. In any case if PCM is giving you the proper audio format, including Atmos, and works better, I’d keep it there. That method (though eschewed by purists) works well for TV4K. Edit: You say the Prime App on TiVo reports PCM 2.0 and Surround, is this also true when watching something with Atmos? I believe Prime on TV reports TrueHD/Atmos. Edit 2: I’ve just recently upgraded my Netflix account so I can get 4K & Atmos, that now allows me to ‘experience’ the TV/Netflix moving center channel bug, I assume you don’t hear that with TiVo/Netflix? That's good info, thanks! Re Prime Video and ATMOS, this is very interesting! When TiVo is set to PCM the result is PCM 2.0/Dolby Surround. When set to Dolby Audio the result is DD+/ATMOS. So why then does Netflix play DD+/ATMOS regardless of how the TiVo audio is setup? Also, I need to clarify something. When TiVo is set to PCM the audio from a Prime movie that's 5.1 is PCM-2.0/Dolby Surround, but when set to Dolby Audio the result is DD+/Dolby Surround. Re the moving center channel, frankly I haven't watched anything yet other than using Netflix for diagnosis. I haven't had it long and I've been upgrading my surround speakers and have yet to install the ATMOS Tops, so I haven't been in the position to doing any serious movie watching. Please explain what it is that I'd be listening for and I can easily check it out maybe later today after I mangle some dandelions in my lawn. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 4, 2020 10:01:16 GMT -5
TV4K decodes the audio to PCM and if it contains Atmos sends it in Dolby MAT format, typically the RMC/XMC reports this as Atmos and TrueHD. We’ve discussed before that streaming devices are lossy and don’t send TrueHD, but the processors are interpreting the decoded signal as that (other brands sometimes report it as Atmos and PCM 7.0). If the TiVo also uses MAT when set to PCM, then Atmos and DD+ is actually a more accurate representation of the original signal as DD+ w/Atmos (EAC3) is how it’s carried. I’m assuming when it’s set to ‘Dolby’ it’s sending a bitstream, so possibly the RMC/XMC isn’t handling the bitstream as well as the Tivo does. In any case if PCM is giving you the proper audio format, including Atmos, and works better, I’d keep it there. That method (though eschewed by purists) works well for TV4K. Edit: You say the Prime App on TiVo reports PCM 2.0 and Surround, is this also true when watching something with Atmos? I believe Prime on TV reports TrueHD/Atmos. Edit 2: I’ve just recently upgraded my Netflix account so I can get 4K & Atmos, that now allows me to ‘experience’ the TV/Netflix moving center channel bug, I assume you don’t hear that with TiVo/Netflix? That's good info, thanks! Re Prime Video and ATMOS, this is very interesting! When TiVo is set to PCM the result is PCM 2.0/Dolby Surround. When set to Dolby Audio the result is DD+/ATMOS. So why then does Netflix play DD+/ATMOS regardless of how the TiVo audio is setup? Also, I need to clarify something. When TiVo is set to PCM the audio from a Prime movie that's 5.1 is PCM-2.0/Dolby Surround, but when set to Dolby Audio the result is DD+/Dolby Surround. Re the moving center channel, frankly I haven't watched anything yet other than using Netflix for diagnosis. I haven't had it long and I've been upgrading my surround speakers and have yet to install the ATMOS Tops, so I haven't been in the position to doing any serious movie watching. Please explain what it is that I'd be listening for and I can easily check it out maybe later today after I mangle some dandelions in my lawn. Someone who knows the TiVo architecture better than I would need to explain why Netflix and Prime report differently, I’d just guess the Prime App needs work. I think doc1963 uses a TiVo and is very knowledgeable about his gear, or a maybe check a TiVo forum at AVS. To hear the moving center channel bug — which manifests itself as the dialog & center material abruptly jumping to a surround or height location (mine likes the Left Surround) — I believe you need all of the following: Atmos material (we just started watching “Lock & Key” and hear it there), an Atmos configured system & speakers, the Netflix 4K plan, and (to my knowledge) TV4K. Since I’ve only heard reports of the bug with TV it’s probably not worth listening for, I was just curious if it ever happens elsewhere. I’m discouraged that I started hearing about it last summer, and having just upgraded to Netflix 4K, am just now hearing it. I assume it’s a problem with the Netflix App on TV. |
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,222 
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Post by novisnick on May 4, 2020 10:08:32 GMT -5
Perhaps I will try to reinstall 1.9 and change my tivo setting to PCM but that won’t fix my ATT4K problem.
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Post by doc1963 on May 4, 2020 14:47:37 GMT -5
That's good info, thanks! Re Prime Video and ATMOS, this is very interesting! When TiVo is set to PCM the result is PCM 2.0/Dolby Surround. When set to Dolby Audio the result is DD+/ATMOS. So why then does Netflix play DD+/ATMOS regardless of how the TiVo audio is setup? Also, I need to clarify something. When TiVo is set to PCM the audio from a Prime movie that's 5.1 is PCM-2.0/Dolby Surround, but when set to Dolby Audio the result is DD+/Dolby Surround. Re the moving center channel, frankly I haven't watched anything yet other than using Netflix for diagnosis. I haven't had it long and I've been upgrading my surround speakers and have yet to install the ATMOS Tops, so I haven't been in the position to doing any serious movie watching. Please explain what it is that I'd be listening for and I can easily check it out maybe later today after I mangle some dandelions in my lawn. Someone who knows the TiVo architecture better than I would need to explain why Netflix and Prime report differently, I’d just guess the Prime App needs work. I think doc1963 uses a TiVo and is very knowledgeable about his gear, or a maybe check a TiVo forum at AVS. To hear the moving center channel bug — which manifests itself as the dialog & center material abruptly jumping to a surround or height location (mine likes the Left Surround) — I believe you need all of the following: Atmos material (we just started watching “Lock & Key” and hear it there), an Atmos configured system & speakers, the Netflix 4K plan, and (to my knowledge) TV4K. Since I’ve only heard reports of the bug with TV it’s probably not worth listening for, I was just curious if it ever happens elsewhere. I’m discouraged that I started hearing about it last summer, and having just upgraded to Netflix 4K, am just now hearing it. I assume it’s a problem with the Netflix App on TV. Considering that the Amazon Prime Video app currently has numerous issues across multiple platforms, I would agree with your guess. As for the TiVo settings, there are only two options. Dolby Digital (which is otherwise a hardware pass-through mode) or PCM 2.0. The PCM setting is there for mainly one reason... to allow the TiVo box to mix in the "TiVo sounds" (all of the menu tick, pops, clicks, bells and whistles). At one point, maybe for better compatibility with older TV sets, but I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore. As far as I know, TiVo hardware (up to the Bolt) can only decode standard Dolby Digital and DD+ (EAC3). All EAC3 containing Atmos (via the apps) is passed through to be decoded externally. This may have changed in later incarnations of the TiVo hardware, but I doubt it. I assume TiVo would have to pay for the additional license fees as well as for the Dolby MAT 2.0 encoder required to transport Atmos metadata via PCM. Given the projected longevity of TiVo as a viable platform moving forward, it's cheaper just to allow hardware pass-through. ttocs, while I do not know exactly why you're seeing this behavior, I would also guess that the Netflix app is functioning as it should while the Amazon Prime app is not. Right now, Nvidia Shield users, like myself, cannot get 4K/HDR/Atmos content from the Amazon Prime app. We're just getting the HD assets. While my ATV4K and LG based Amazon Prime apps work fine, my TiVo Bolt app does not. Like the Shield, no UHD and no HDR. Since Atmos is typically leveraged into UHD content, I would be willing to bet that your TiVo is also not getting the necessary UHD resources. As a test, play a known UHD Prime title and, while it is playing, press "OK" on your TiVo remote to bring up the dashboard. If it says "HD" (or says nothing at all) to the left of the progress bar, then you're not getting UHD from the Amazon servers. Good luck and hope this helps...  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 4, 2020 15:10:53 GMT -5
Having issues with TiVo when set to Dolby Audio so I'm trying PCM. Normal TiVo cable channels are reported as PCM 2.0 incoming on XMC-2, and Dolby Surround output. However, when the Netflix 4K App is selected on the TiVo box the incoming audio is now DD+, and the output is ATMOS.... ... As for the TiVo settings, there are only two options. Dolby Digital (which is otherwise a hardware pass-through mode) or PCM 2.0. ... As far as I know, TiVo hardware (up to the Bolt) can only decode standard Dolby Digital. All EAC3/Atmos (via the apps) is passed through to be decoded externally. This may have change in later incarnations of the TiVo hardware, but I doubt it. I assume TiVo would have to pay for the additional license fees as well as for the Dolby MAT 2.0 encoder required to transport Atmos metadata via PCM. Given the projected longevity of TiVo as a viable platform moving forward, it's cheaper just to allow hardware pass-through. ... I would have thought the same thing, but if he's seeing Atmos when set to PCM, then it seems some TiVo's may now be doing MAT? or possibly the App is sending bitstream even though the device is set to PCM (kind of like 'exclusive mode for audio')? |
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Post by ttocs on May 4, 2020 15:43:00 GMT -5
^^^^^^
I'm just happy to find that the TiVo can do ATMOS, never realized this before.
The buggy operation of the speed searching has been a problem since TiVo released the EDGE. It's actually a carryover from some earlier models (found this out last week), but I never had a problem with my Roamio. For me it's only since having the EDGE, and more specifically since having both the EDGE and my new Sony tv, because when I only had a projector none of this was ever a problem.
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