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Post by huskydog55 on May 20, 2020 16:43:45 GMT -5
What I am asking help for is to decide on what configuration of amps to get for my 7.1 home theater.
However, I want to get the maximum WPC for my LCR and get as close to the recommend WPC for my surrounds and rears. Couple that with the 30% back in Emobucks. Which my goals is to make two or more purchases so that the 30% back on the last purchase I make is as close to $0 as possible. Because it is not really a 30% off sale.
Here is an example I have, then I will throw in a caveat.
A simple solution would be to get the XPA-DR3 for $2,000. That gives me $600 Emobucks. Then I could buy the BasX A-5175 for $700 (if it was still available), use the $600 Emobucks and then owe $100. Bringing me to a total of $2,100.
Give the fact that the A-5175 is not currently available, the next option would be to get the A-700, but that is only 80 WPC and not enough power for me.
Here is the caveat, I used to think of 3 channel amps as being used for the LCR channels. But then I thought that maybe I could use two 3 channel amps. One for the left front, surround, and rear. And a second 3 channel amp for the right side. Meaning I would have to get a mono block for the center. With the Emobucks, I would be right at $4,000 which is a bit more than what I would want to spend, but deciding factor is physics. And hopefully you can help.
True to its form, Emotiva tells us exactly what the WPC for all channels driven on their amps. Now I do not know how they test the amps after they have been built to ensure it has the WPC they wanted it to have. But I would think that whether it was a mono block or a seven channel amp, each channel would be hooked up to some device that would simulate all of the speakers having the exact same specs. But I truly do not know.
Assuming my assertion is correct, what would each channel of the XPA-DR3 actually output if I had one tower hooked up to it, and then two, much smaller bookshelves hooked up to it as well? The tower would definitely be more demanding given its frequency range, the size and number of speakers. The bookshelves would not be capable of the lower frequencies and also have a mid-range and tweeter, thus needing less power (I assume).
So what it boils down to is,
A) if I go with two 3 channel amps to run the left and right side speakers (and a mono block for the center), would the towers get any extra power since the other two smaller channels do not need as much power?
OR
B) Do I not know enough about physics and electrical engineering and what I stated above is rubbish. So I should just use one XPA-DR3 for the LCR and either one A-5175 or two A-300s if/when they become available?
C) Other suggestions
Thank you.
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Post by garbulky on May 20, 2020 17:02:15 GMT -5
All channels driven ratings is the worse case scenario. The most power is going to be taken by your front speakers. The amps can deliver the unused power to the channels that need it - within the limits of the amp modules on the channel.
Having said that, for the most part you will be using about 1 to 2 watts of power, if that. So power isn't necessarily an issue.
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Post by creimes on May 20, 2020 18:18:45 GMT -5
For me I find the biggest draw of power is when I'm listening to music louder than normal and in Reference Stereo mode when all frequencies are being sent to my left and right towers, and then when running my 5.2 setup and having my subs taking on the lower end the power draw especially from surrounds will be minimal, I think your plan of the DR-3 for the fronts and the A-5175 will be plenty fine. Another option is the XPA-5 and say the A-500 you will still be fine unless you are really lusting after the DR-3  Out of curiosity what speakers are you running. Chad |
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Post by huskydog55 on May 20, 2020 18:48:26 GMT -5
All channels driven ratings is the worse case scenario. The most power is going to be taken by your front speakers. The amps can deliver the unused power to the channels that need it - within the limits of the amp modules on the channel. Having said that, for the most part you will be using about 1 to 2 watts of power, if that. So power isn't necessarily an issue. garbulky, That is where my knowledge of electrical engineering breaks down (and something I need to research). Because I posted something to the same effect on GoldenEar's site about getting more power for my speakers. And some said something like I just needed a few watts. Which begs the question, why does anyone need an amp if their AVR can push more than 10 WPC? :-) My only A/B testing with amps and speakers was with my car stereo set up. I had a 4 channel amp feeding 55 WPC. A buddy of mine sold me a two channel amp that was a little over 55 WPC. So I took the initial amp and bridged it to something like 150 WPC (for two channels) and I could tell a big difference in the imaging, clarity and volume. The sound seemed closer to me than low in the doors. |
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Post by SteveH on May 20, 2020 18:55:34 GMT -5
If you were to buy a Build It Yourself XPA, you could purchase an ELEVEN 3-4S. That gives you three single channel high power modules at 300W each LCR,then you would have four 65W stereo modules for everything else. You only need two stereo modules to complete the 7 speaker setup, that leaves you two extra 65W stereo modules for expansion to Dolby Atmos height speakers. Below is to make sure I have the math right. A full 'Build It Yourself' XPA tops out at $1999 max.
11 Channels (XPA holds seven modules)
1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 11 Channels (7 modules)
L C R L/R SURR L/R Rear SURR ATMOS Front ATMOS Rear
I purchased a THIRTEEN 1-6S so I have one high power 300W channel for my center and twelve 65W channels for all the surrounds, Atmos, patio and garage.
Enjoy whatever you decide!
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Post by huskydog55 on May 20, 2020 19:04:38 GMT -5
For me I find the biggest draw of power is when I'm listening to music louder than normal and in Reference Stereo mode when all frequencies are being sent to my left and right towers, and then when running my 5.2 setup and having my subs taking on the lower end the power draw especially from surrounds will be minimal, I think your plan of the DR-3 for the fronts and the A-5175 will be plenty fine. Another option is the XPA-5 and say the A-500 you will still be fine unless you are really lusting after the DR-3 Out of curiosity what speakers are you running. Chad creimes, "Lust" just about sums it up. Well put. :-) To answer your last question first, I have: GoldenEar Triton 2 (two) GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL GoldenEar SuperSat3C (4) Being backed by a LX701 Pioneer Given the layout of our house, I do not have the luxury to listen to much music with my T2 GEs. It is mostly movies and shows. The reason I lust for the XPA-DR3 is because a buddy of mine who has the Triton 7s and the SuperSat6 as his center, has a Pioneer similar to mine with the Class D amps. He bought a used XPA-3 to power the LCR channels. (He just has 2 rears.). He said it was an improvement but not as much as he thought. I have not heard it, so I cannot say. But his tastes are a bit more refined than mine. But if he thinks that about 80 WPC from his Pio to a true 275 WPC was only worth it because it was used. Then I would rather spend the extra coin and get with the XPA-DR3 with 450 WPC. Besides what I replied with to garbulky with, I have not had a good A/B comparison. I have two other 5.1 systems in my house, but they are entry level compared to the GEs. And their AVRs were bought based on being the least expensive AVR that supported 4K/UHD and 5.1. So it is a different league. |
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Post by garbulky on May 20, 2020 19:08:57 GMT -5
All channels driven ratings is the worse case scenario. The most power is going to be taken by your front speakers. The amps can deliver the unused power to the channels that need it - within the limits of the amp modules on the channel. Having said that, for the most part you will be using about 1 to 2 watts of power, if that. So power isn't necessarily an issue. garbulky, That is where my knowledge of electrical engineering breaks down (and something I need to research). Because I posted something to the same effect on GoldenEar's site about getting more power for my speakers. And some said something like I just needed a few watts. Which begs the question, why does anyone need an amp if their AVR can push more than 10 WPC? :-) My only A/B testing with amps and speakers was with my car stereo set up. I had a 4 channel amp feeding 55 WPC. A buddy of mine sold me a two channel amp that was a little over 55 WPC. So I took the initial amp and bridged it to something like 150 WPC (for two channels) and I could tell a big difference in the imaging, clarity and volume. The sound seemed closer to me than low in the doors. Well that's a good question. Imo the answer is that a lot of amps simply can't handle even a few quality watts. Now truthfully, yes, in really loud scenes on peaks the power demand can get more than a few watts, "some say" even hundreds. Well we tried that and couldn't get the meter on a macintosh amp to budge past two watts even when we cranked it. Not saying that you can't get past two watts, just that we couldn't! I currently run a set of XPA-1 gen 2 amps and they can put out 1000 watts at 4 ohms of power. They are the best sounding amps I've heard. having said that, the Emotiva PA-1 amps which put out a fraction of the power are very close to being as good. I've also heard a set of 7 watt tube monoblock amps playing in a large living room and I never thought that they lacked power. Does this mean that I think an AVR or all amps sound the same? Not at all. Most amps I have heard tend to have their own sound signature to me. There are several amps I've heard that are simply unimpressive. There were some that sounded so bad I couldn't wait to get them out of the system. Then there were some amps that sounded just fantastic. Then there were some that had some flaws but their strengths were more than enough to justify their use. The amps that did poorly usually had unnatural sounding treble. The mids felt scooped on loud dynamics. The bass felt a little "undefined." The good amps were really fast with everything and the best were fast enough to recreate the ambience of the room dimensions in a recording. The XPA-1 gen2, the PA-1's, and maybe the XPA-2 gen 2's are the only ones I have heard that could do this. So for you, what does that mean? I say just listen to the amps and make up your mind. I found the Bas-X A-300 to sound better than the XPA-2 gen 3 (single blade config). I have not heard the DR versions which the people that used them said they liked them. Make up your own mind. For me, I am not parting with my XPA-1 gen 2 but I am keeping an open mind. |
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Post by huskydog55 on May 20, 2020 19:12:28 GMT -5
If you were to buy a Build It Yourself XPA, you could purchase an ELEVEN 3-4S. That gives you three single channel high power modules at 300W each LCR,then you would have four 65W stereo modules for everything else. You only need two stereo modules to complete the 7 speaker setup, that leaves you two extra 65W stereo modules for expansion to Dolby Atmos height speakers. Below is to make sure I have the math right. A full 'Build It Yourself' XPA tops out at $1999 max. 11 Channels (XPA holds seven modules) 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 11 Channels (7 modules) L C R L/R SURR L/R Rear SURR ATMOS Front ATMOS Rear I purchased a THIRTEEN 1-6S so I have one high power 300W channel for my center and twelve 65W channels for all the surrounds, Atmos, patio and garage. Enjoy whatever you decide! SteveH, I am glad you brought that up. Because I have seen those units and I have wondered about them. The 300 WPC for LCR is nice. But for me, and my setup, if I were to just replace the LCR, the Pioneer would provide probably close to 65 WPC for the surrounds and the rear. Which I feel does not improve my situation and probably is not worth the money. If I were to have separates, then that would be a no brainer. I did not bring this up earlier because currently it is irrelevant, but I too want to do install 2 ATMOS front and 2 ATMOS rears. My basement has a low ceiling and really is a horrible theater room, but it is what it is. And I figured I could buy two 2 channel amps if I am able to figure out how to install overhead speakers that do not make me have to duck. |
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Post by huskydog55 on May 20, 2020 19:22:25 GMT -5
garbulky,
I have heard similar stories. But I am at the point in my listening refinement just to know what I like and what I do not like. My pallet has not been as refined as yours. But I get what you are saying.
The 701 Pioneer has Class D amps and my secondary Pioneer has their standard amps. I can tell a bit of a difference between the two. But also, the 701 is driving GoldenEars and the other one is driving all Klipsch bookshelf speaker(l/R) s and a medium sized center with small rears. (WAF allowed for big ass speakers in the basement but no where else. Whaddaya gonna do?)
So without buy $10,000 worth of amps only to return about $7,000, It is difficult to make up my mind without hearing them.
Though I will be very close to their headquarters on Friday. Maybe I will pop in and say hi. ;-)
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Post by garbulky on May 20, 2020 19:28:09 GMT -5
garbulky, I have heard similar stories. But I am at the point in my listening refinement just to know what I like and what I do not like. My pallet has not been as refined as yours. But I get what you are saying. The 701 Pioneer has Class D amps and my secondary Pioneer has their standard amps. I can tell a bit of a difference between the two. But also, the 701 is driving GoldenEars and the other one is driving all Klipsch bookshelf speaker(l/R) s and a medium sized center with small rears. (WAF allowed for big ass speakers in the basement but no where else. Whaddaya gonna do?) So without buy $10,000 worth of amps only to return about $7,000, It is difficult to make up my mind without hearing them. Though I will be very close to their headquarters on Friday. Maybe I will pop in and say hi. ;-) Don't worry about a "refined pallet". I know I don't have one. I just know I'm picky! Lol The only person's enjoyment that matters is yours. If you find only a bit of difference between amps, then that is absolutely the correct answer. Same goes for if you find vast differences. So do what you think is right. Imo, most of the time you will find you did the right thing! Enjoy. |
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Post by creimes on May 20, 2020 19:44:55 GMT -5
For me I find the biggest draw of power is when I'm listening to music louder than normal and in Reference Stereo mode when all frequencies are being sent to my left and right towers, and then when running my 5.2 setup and having my subs taking on the lower end the power draw especially from surrounds will be minimal, I think your plan of the DR-3 for the fronts and the A-5175 will be plenty fine. Another option is the XPA-5 and say the A-500 you will still be fine unless you are really lusting after the DR-3 Out of curiosity what speakers are you running. Chad creimes, "Lust" just about sums it up. Well put. :-) To answer your last question first, I have: GoldenEar Triton 2 (two) GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL GoldenEar SuperSat3C (4) Being backed by a LX701 Pioneer Given the layout of our house, I do not have the luxury to listen to much music with my T2 GEs. It is mostly movies and shows. The reason I lust for the XPA-DR3 is because a buddy of mine who has the Triton 7s and the SuperSat6 as his center, has a Pioneer similar to mine with the Class D amps. He bought a used XPA-3 to power the LCR channels. (He just has 2 rears.). He said it was an improvement but not as much as he thought. I have not heard it, so I cannot say. But his tastes are a bit more refined than mine. But if he thinks that about 80 WPC from his Pio to a true 275 WPC was only worth it because it was used. Then I would rather spend the extra coin and get with the XPA-DR3 with 450 WPC. Besides what I replied with to garbulky with, I have not had a good A/B comparison. I have two other 5.1 systems in my house, but they are entry level compared to the GEs. And their AVRs were bought based on being the least expensive AVR that supported 4K/UHD and 5.1. So it is a different league. I'm not sure how the Pioneer is but I really like my XMC-1, best sounding pre/pro I have owned compared to some other companies pre/pro's and any receiver I have owned. Amps play a smaller part in how "refined" or whatever you call it compared to the source and receiver/processor. If you are in the vicinity of Emotiva you can call them ahead of time but with the Covid-19 situation I doubt they are allowing visitors but a call to them would clarify that, at least then you could have a first hand listen to their products. If you plan on staying 7.1 for a while there are used XMC-1's selling for around the $1000 mark if you ever wanted to go the way of separates, a pretty budget option to try it out yourself. In the end it's your ears and your room, for me going the way of separates was a big + but everyone is different. Chad |
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Post by davidl81 on May 20, 2020 19:48:28 GMT -5
For me I find the biggest draw of power is when I'm listening to music louder than normal and in Reference Stereo mode when all frequencies are being sent to my left and right towers, and then when running my 5.2 setup and having my subs taking on the lower end the power draw especially from surrounds will be minimal, I think your plan of the DR-3 for the fronts and the A-5175 will be plenty fine. Another option is the XPA-5 and say the A-500 you will still be fine unless you are really lusting after the DR-3 Out of curiosity what speakers are you running. Chad creimes, "Lust" just about sums it up. Well put. :-) To answer your last question first, I have: GoldenEar Triton 2 (two) GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL GoldenEar SuperSat3C (4) Being backed by a LX701 Pioneer Given the layout of our house, I do not have the luxury to listen to much music with my T2 GEs. It is mostly movies and shows. The reason I lust for the XPA-DR3 is because a buddy of mine who has the Triton 7s and the SuperSat6 as his center, has a Pioneer similar to mine with the Class D amps. He bought a used XPA-3 to power the LCR channels. (He just has 2 rears.). He said it was an improvement but not as much as he thought. I have not heard it, so I cannot say. But his tastes are a bit more refined than mine. But if he thinks that about 80 WPC from his Pio to a true 275 WPC was only worth it because it was used. Then I would rather spend the extra coin and get with the XPA-DR3 with 450 WPC. Besides what I replied with to garbulky with, I have not had a good A/B comparison. I have two other 5.1 systems in my house, but they are entry level compared to the GEs. And their AVRs were bought based on being the least expensive AVR that supported 4K/UHD and 5.1. So it is a different league. I would check on the DR line of amps with the golden ear speakers. My understanding is you cannot you that amp with a speaker that has a powered sub like the Golden Ear does, but I may be incorrect. It has to do with the fully balanced DR amp, both the pos and the neg channels carry voltage. |
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Post by bonscott on May 20, 2020 21:59:20 GMT -5
creimes, "Lust" just about sums it up. Well put. :-) To answer your last question first, I have: GoldenEar Triton 2 (two) GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL GoldenEar SuperSat3C (4) Being backed by a LX701 Pioneer Given the layout of our house, I do not have the luxury to listen to much music with my T2 GEs. It is mostly movies and shows. The reason I lust for the XPA-DR3 is because a buddy of mine who has the Triton 7s and the SuperSat6 as his center, has a Pioneer similar to mine with the Class D amps. He bought a used XPA-3 to power the LCR channels. (He just has 2 rears.). He said it was an improvement but not as much as he thought. I have not heard it, so I cannot say. But his tastes are a bit more refined than mine. But if he thinks that about 80 WPC from his Pio to a true 275 WPC was only worth it because it was used. Then I would rather spend the extra coin and get with the XPA-DR3 with 450 WPC. Besides what I replied with to garbulky with, I have not had a good A/B comparison. I have two other 5.1 systems in my house, but they are entry level compared to the GEs. And their AVRs were bought based on being the least expensive AVR that supported 4K/UHD and 5.1. So it is a different league. I would check on the DR line of amps with the golden ear speakers. My understanding is you cannot you that amp with a speaker that has a powered sub like the Golden Ear does, but I may be incorrect. It has to do with the fully balanced DR amp, both the pos and the neg channels carry voltage. I have Def Tech speakers with powered subs. So you you are saying the DR amps will not work with those speakers. Can anyone confirm? |
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Post by davidl81 on May 20, 2020 22:55:07 GMT -5
I would check on the DR line of amps with the golden ear speakers. My understanding is you cannot you that amp with a speaker that has a powered sub like the Golden Ear does, but I may be incorrect. It has to do with the fully balanced DR amp, both the pos and the neg channels carry voltage. I have Def Tech speakers with powered subs. So you you are saying the DR amps will not work with those speakers. Can anyone confirm? The owners manual mentions something about not using this amp with speakers that are powered and have a common ground. I’m not quite sure what that means. I would call Emotiva tomorrow and ask them. That’s most likely better then just asking here in the forum. |
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Post by huskydog55 on May 21, 2020 18:41:43 GMT -5
Chad,
Thanks for the tip on the XMC-1. This is all second hand information, but I have heard and read some mixed reviews on it. Mostly with the HDMI. But I have not done my own homework, yet.
I am at 7.1 now, but would like to add 4 Atmos ceiling speakers. The problem is that the ceiling already is only 7' and I am 6'7". The big air ducts are just about the drywall.
But $1,000 for an XMC-1 might not be bad. But If I want to go more than 9 channels, its seems like that is at least a $3,000 investment no matter where you look.
Where did you see the XMC-1?
Thank you.
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Post by huskydog55 on May 21, 2020 18:46:01 GMT -5
david81,
Thanks for the tip about a fully balanced amp and the GE towers. I will have to ask my local sales guy and GE about that. I really do not want to mess up a good pair of speakers.
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Post by huskydog55 on May 21, 2020 18:51:19 GMT -5
Chad,
I have another question for you. And this only applies if you are running XLR cables. Because I have done some research on the difference between XLR cables and composite cables. So I realize that the XLRs are not only better shielded, but they also carry a higher voltage signal. Just curious if you have heard that as a factor.
I have not doubt that the XMC-1 plays a bigger role, but just curious if you have done an A/B test with the cables.
Thanks.
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Post by creimes on May 21, 2020 19:49:24 GMT -5
Chad, I have another question for you. And this only applies if you are running XLR cables. Because I have done some research on the difference between XLR cables and composite cables. So I realize that the XLRs are not only better shielded, but they also carry a higher voltage signal. Just curious if you have heard that as a factor. I have not doubt that the XMC-1 plays a bigger role, but just curious if you have done an A/B test with the cables. Thanks. I used RCA cables back when I had the UMC-1 and a short period with a Anthem MRX310 receiver used as a pre/pro and now of course XLR outputs with my XMC-1, XLR will have a higher output than RCA and better shielding whether or not your system would need it, I use them because I can. There is a XMC-1 on the lounge here for sale for $1050 shipped if it's still available, otherwise some XMC-2's come up for cheaper than new, another option if you are wanting to explore Atmos is a Anthem AVM60 processor as I see them pop up used on US Audio Mart or Audiogon from time to time. emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56720/xmc-1-certified-refurbished-bnibChad |
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