|
|
Post by JKCashin on Feb 21, 2021 11:13:30 GMT -5
Emotiva should ditch the live update and overlay graphics in the settings IMO. With the simple text based setup they have it would be like running MSDOS on a new Core i9 processor PC. Insanely fast.. Make it a selectable option! I for one woulod love to be able to turn it off |
|
doc1963
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 5,025
Member is Online
|
Post by doc1963 on Feb 21, 2021 12:01:43 GMT -5
Emotiva should ditch the live update and overlay graphics in the settings IMO. With the simple text based setup they have it would be like running MSDOS on a new Core i9 processor PC. Insanely fast.. Make it a selectable option! I for one woulod love to be able to turn it off I firmly believe that if more users were accepting of having no OSD other than for maybe “Input/Output Info” and “Volume”, then this would have been addressed awhile ago. Lonnie has already went on record stating that he supports removing it. Personally, if it makes for a better user experience by offloading the “live” Settings menu to a web interface, I’m all for it... |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,166
|
Post by ttocs on Feb 21, 2021 12:14:14 GMT -5
REMOVE the OSD. 
|
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Feb 21, 2021 12:29:48 GMT -5
Just tested DTS Direct. It does what other prepro’s and AVR’s does with Auto mode. It simply says ”DTS-HD MA 5.1” as sound mode on their displays. Emotiva does not have this and defaults to upmixing instead. With DTS Direct enabled. A DTS 5.1 source simply gets a straight decoding with the ”upmixing” to 7.1 if the speaker layout is available, as required by DTS. No additional mixing or anything to the channels. With DTS Direct disabled. Normal full upmixed Neural:X up to 11.1 channels. Anyway until DTS:X Pro arrives. As Doc said, this feature is more appropriately put in Main Zone menu than in Preferences. So this means Surround mode is still different and is better suited for music sources. But for those wanting the music always played back from surround back this is nice addition. IMO not nicely implemented though. DTS Direct should have been a sound mode instead of an option to tick on or off. Why is there not a Dolby Direct? These modes should be the default modes also. I concur and is what I found to be true in my system (and mentioned above). With DTS Direct enabled, all bed channels are active, but no expansion into the “atmospheric” channels. So which is “better”? On or off.... |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Feb 21, 2021 12:33:04 GMT -5
Make it a selectable option! I for one woulod love to be able to turn it off I firmly believe that if more users were accepting of having no OSD other than for maybe “Input/Output Info” and “Volume”, then this would have been addressed awhile ago. Lonnie has already went on record stating that he supports removing it. Personally, if it makes for a better user experience by offloading the “live” Settings menu to a web interface, I’m all for it... Agreed. After all it is about the user. |
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Feb 21, 2021 12:33:42 GMT -5
Make it a selectable option! I for one woulod love to be able to turn it off I firmly believe that if more users were accepting of having no OSD other than for maybe “Input/Output Info” and “Volume”, then this would have been addressed awhile ago. Lonnie has already went on record stating that he supports removing it. Personally, if it makes for a better user experience by offloading the “live” Settings menu to a web interface, I’m all for it... It would make everything very fast. Just needing to poll network changes instead of the constant redrawing of the overlay screen while already having alot to do with the decoding. But this of course means they have to make the network stable for everybody.  |
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Feb 21, 2021 12:45:30 GMT -5
The OSD is not the problem. I use the popup OSD to:
- Check the current volume
- Verify the source format information (ATMOS etc.)
- Check the current sound mode
- Verify the input
- Make quick changes to the center channel volume.
I can't see any of that on the front display from my seating position.
The OSD is not slow. The menu system is slow.
At this point, leave it be but an alternate web based configuration would be a huge improvement.
At some point, it may make sense to replace the menu-system but KEEP THE OSD STATUS.
That is my 2 cents.
- Rich
|
|
Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,435
|
Post by Lsc on Feb 21, 2021 12:47:58 GMT -5
Just tested DTS Direct. It does what other prepro’s and AVR’s does with Auto mode. It simply says ”DTS-HD MA 5.1” as sound mode on their displays. Emotiva does not have this and defaults to upmixing instead. With DTS Direct enabled. A DTS 5.1 source simply gets a straight decoding with the ”upmixing” to 7.1 if the speaker layout is available, as required by DTS. No additional mixing or anything to the channels. With DTS Direct disabled. Normal full upmixed Neural:X up to 11.1 channels. Anyway until DTS:X Pro arrives. As Doc said, this feature is more appropriately put in Main Zone menu than in Preferences. So this means Surround mode is still different and is better suited for music sources. But for those wanting the music always played back from surround back this is nice addition. IMO not nicely implemented though. DTS Direct should have been a sound mode instead of an option to tick on or off. Why is there not a Dolby Direct? These modes should be the default modes also. I concur and is what I found to be true in my system (and mentioned above). With DTS Direct enabled, all bed channels are active, but no expansion into the “atmospheric” channels. I also concur as I just tested it using the James Bond movie “Skyfall”. It’s a great sounding movie btw. It’s a little tricky with the menu. “Surround” is native mode for Dolby and DTS and “auto” enables the upmixer. I don’t think Dolby direct is an offering from Dolby hence the difference. I think regardless of the menu placement, something like this should have proper release notes and manual updates. |
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Feb 21, 2021 12:48:46 GMT -5
I concur and is what I found to be true in my system (and mentioned above). With DTS Direct enabled, all bed channels are active, but no expansion into the “atmospheric” channels. So which is “better”? On or off.... Neither is better. It’s two different things. DTS Direct enabled in practice turns off Neural:X. It does a straight DTS decoding up to 7.1. DTS:X being a separate thing. Disabled uses Neural:X as normal with full upmix. This also means raising the volume on the surround speakers among other things. So they should sound very different even if you only have a 7.1 setup. As I wrote before DTS Direct should not be a tick option. It should be a sound mode. Now we choose Neural:X with both but have to go to Preferences to change how want it output. DTS Direct is not Neural:X so this feels just wierd. |
|
|
|
Post by wkingincharge on Feb 21, 2021 12:57:18 GMT -5
The latest firmware update went just fine as always. The speed of the menu was very fast at first with music listening via optical cable however it got slower as the day progressed and when switching to my first atmos tracked Blu-ray it actually locked up so I did a full restore and added my backup settings in again so far so good for day 2. I am running a very basic connection setup with the 1 sourced Panasonic 4k player direct HDMI to the projector and audio HDMI to the RMC-1 until the issues between these 2 boxes are resolved. The sound of the RMC-1 has always been very good without or with Dirac enabled so the addition of 2.2 didn't make it better or worse in my opinion. Emotiva is almost there at least from my perspective for bugs other than offering DTX Pro as DLBM is not on my radar given its known issues and if ditching the OSD for web based to increase speed and can be done without going backwards please make it happen ASAP or at least an option in the setup menu.
|
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Feb 21, 2021 13:15:29 GMT -5
I concur and is what I found to be true in my system (and mentioned above). With DTS Direct enabled, all bed channels are active, but no expansion into the “atmospheric” channels. I also concur as I just tested it using the James Bond movie “Skyfall”. It’s a great sounding movie btw. It’s a little tricky with the menu. “Surround” is native mode for Dolby and DTS and “auto” enables the upmixer. I don’t think Dolby direct is an offering from Dolby hence the difference. I think regardless of the menu placement, something like this should have proper release notes and manual updates. The problem is Emotiva in this case. They handle sound modes like no one else. DTS Direct is normal sound mode on any other unit. Although not called that. For example my Pioneer defaulted to auto which said DTS or Dolby Digital on the display. Same on my friends Yamaha. And no, Surround is not native as Dolby and DTS requires it (not activating surround back on 5.1 content). But it’s nice to have nonetheless, especially for music and content that shouldn’t be upmixed. For example test signals on discs. I believe most AVR’s also behaves the same with Dolby content. The ”auto” mode being the straigh decoding with output from the surround backs if available. A Dolby Direct of sorts. Upmixing should always be a active choice, not the auto default IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by zdoggz on Feb 21, 2021 14:32:42 GMT -5
In my opinion, it's just another way to turn Neural:X off (without selecting another mode) if you're always going to prefer the native mix. Personally, I'm never going to not prefer the up mix, so I'm leaving it disabled. I don't know how it compares to basic "Surround", but you're welcomed to give it a try and let your own ears decide... EDIT... But to add a possible benefit, a 5.1 and 7.1 bed channel layout differs in the location of the surround speaker placement. The way I understand Emotiva’s “Surround” mode to work, in a 7.1 speaker configuration using a 5.1 source, a copy of the Surround channel is scaled back and placed into the back channels. Now, if Neural:X is creative when using “DTS Direct” in the same scenario, the 5.1 mix could be precisely placed within the same 7.1 speaker layout. I’m not claiming this is how it works, only that it’s possible... Surround does no upmixing. 5.1 is output as 5.1 with whatever setup you have above it. 6.1 outputs as 7.1 (only doubling the back speaker), 7.1 as 7.1 and anything above as 7.1. It simply outputs straight as the source is up to 7.1. It’s THE mode to use especially for multi channel music were upmixing can totally destroy the sound. I have asked Emotiva to change its name because it does not explain what it does. Straight, Direct or Native are better names. Direct however can be misinterpreted as many AVR’s use this for ”no EQ” sound mode. If DTS Direct does exactly the same I don’t get the addition of i.. However if it’s connected to Neural:X and with enabled only upmix to the bed channels (7.1) and with the option disabled upmixes to the full speaker layout (9.1.6 with Pro) it seems a better addition. Dolby “surround” upmixes my 2 ch music content to my height channels but neural x seems to send a bit more from the bit of testing I’ve done. Am I missing something or does dolby surround just not upmix multi ch content? Just FYI, when I’ve used “surround” on 2ch music, it seems to me that the back channels have more content than the surrounds, which I thought was odd at first... |
|
doc1963
Emo VIPs
Posts: 5,025
Member is Online
|
Post by doc1963 on Feb 21, 2021 14:40:23 GMT -5
The OSD is not the problem. I use the popup OSD to: - Check the current volume - Verify the source format information (ATMOS etc.) - Check the current sound mode - Verify the input - Make quick changes to the center channel volume. I can't see any of that on the front display from my seating position. The OSD is not slow. The menu system is slow. At this point, leave it be but an alternate web based configuration would be a huge improvement. At some point, it may make sense to replace the menu-system but KEEP THE OSD STATUS. That is my 2 cents. - Rich I think we’re all taking about the same thing... Keep the status info and volume “on screen”, but offload the entire live “on screen” menu system to a web interface. It satisfies the needs of the masses without being too drastic....  |
|
|
|
Post by megash0n on Feb 21, 2021 14:45:57 GMT -5
In simple terms, how does this differ from the "surround" mode? Are you guys suggesting that surround is native, DTS direct is surround plus up mix to bed channels, and then dts-N is for up mixing wherever it decides? Mainly my question is how does dts direct differ from Surround in your opinion? In my opinion, it's just another way to turn Neural:X off (without selecting another mode) if you're always going to prefer the native mix. Personally, I'm never going to not prefer the up mix, so I'm leaving it disabled. I don't know how it compares to basic "Surround", but you're welcomed to give it a try and let your own ears decide... EDIT... But to add a possible benefit, a 5.1 and 7.1 bed channel layout differs in the location of the surround speaker placement. The way I understand Emotiva’s “Surround” mode to work, in a 7.1 speaker configuration using a 5.1 source, a copy of the Surround channel is scaled back and placed into the back channels. Now, if Neural:X is creative when using “DTS Direct” in the same scenario, the 5.1 mix could be precisely placed within the same 7.1 speaker layout. I’m not claiming this is how it works, only that it’s possible... is it possible that this is a way to allow a direct path for DTS for things like and Xbox that force a specific codec or container? For instance, my Xbox is set to dobly atmos. So, the G3P sees DA whether it is DA or DD. The Xbox itself up mixes. Hopefully this makes sense. |
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,861
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 21, 2021 14:52:20 GMT -5
The OSD is not the problem. I use the popup OSD to: - Check the current volume - Verify the source format information (ATMOS etc.) - Check the current sound mode - Verify the input - Make quick changes to the center channel volume. I can't see any of that on the front display from my seating position. The OSD is not slow. The menu system is slow. At this point, leave it be but an alternate web based configuration would be a huge improvement. At some point, it may make sense to replace the menu-system but KEEP THE OSD STATUS. That is my 2 cents. - Rich I think we’re all taking about the same thing... Keep the status info and volume “on screen”, but offload the entire live “on screen” menu system to a web interface. It satisfies the needs of the masses without being too drastic.... I would most definitely be in favor of what I've put in bold print in your response. |
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Feb 21, 2021 15:32:26 GMT -5
Surround does no upmixing. 5.1 is output as 5.1 with whatever setup you have above it. 6.1 outputs as 7.1 (only doubling the back speaker), 7.1 as 7.1 and anything above as 7.1. It simply outputs straight as the source is up to 7.1. It’s THE mode to use especially for multi channel music were upmixing can totally destroy the sound. I have asked Emotiva to change its name because it does not explain what it does. Straight, Direct or Native are better names. Direct however can be misinterpreted as many AVR’s use this for ”no EQ” sound mode. If DTS Direct does exactly the same I don’t get the addition of i.. However if it’s connected to Neural:X and with enabled only upmix to the bed channels (7.1) and with the option disabled upmixes to the full speaker layout (9.1.6 with Pro) it seems a better addition. Dolby “surround” upmixes my 2 ch music content to my height channels but neural x seems to send a bit more from the bit of testing I’ve done. Am I missing something or does dolby surround just not upmix multi ch content? Just FYI, when I’ve used “surround” on 2ch music, it seems to me that the back channels have more content than the surrounds, which I thought was odd at first... ”Dolby Surround” and ”Surround” are two different things on Emotiva. One more reason I wanted them to change the name. Stereo plays 2 channel natively, Surround plays multi channel (3.0 to 7.1) natively. Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixes. |
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Feb 21, 2021 16:06:24 GMT -5
I’m not understanding how to replicate and/or test for the slow menu....I’m running through the menu and pressing buttons and it’s not slow.....what can I try? “Test for Dummies?”. Don’t mean to demean this, just want to see what others are seeing. Thank you. Edit: ok, I went into settings and changed inputs on screen from Preset 2 to Preset 1....it takes about 4 seconds for the audio to switch and come back on.....is this something we are talking about? Actually, "input switching" isn't what he's referring to. It's menu operation over live video which is also very dependent upon the source resolution and whether the source audio is PCM or bitstreamed. To see this for yourself, put a 4K UHD Blu-ray in one of your players (where the audio is being bitstreamed) and, while it is playing, press " Menu" on your factory remote and try to navigate the " Settings" menu. It should be easy to see that each button press does not meet with an " immediate" response in the OSD. There is typically a delay. This can become extremely sluggish if the video is paused. Each button press "is" remembered, but the OSD takes all the time it needs to update. Now, this whole issue can be skewed by ones definition of "slow", but the reality of the situation is that we're not in the old days of the XMC-1 where our video sources topped out at 1080p and where the OSD was very responsive. Personally, I'm convinced that (because of the need to blend the OSD over live 4K video) this is exactly why other brands are moving away from a live OSD for basic settings. Having said that, I'm not so sure that (other for than the "slow bug" that effects paused video), the overall responsiveness will get any better than it is. Hope this helps... Btw.. It’s not only slow settings menus with 4k in the background. I paused a 1080p bluray, while playing 2ch music, doing nothing but displaying it on the TV. Then compared them. Exactly the same menu ”speed”. Going into Preferences and pressing up and down. Almost 2 secs for a reaction and complete redraw. Some may think 2 secs ain’t so bad.. But IMO for what Emotiva is displaying (only text) it’s about 20 times too slow. Don’t know why it’s the same slow speed on a black screen. But I would guess the same code is working in the background to ”overlay” the menu. Or it simply is the live update that slows it down. Or a combination of them both. |
|
Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,435
|
Post by Lsc on Feb 21, 2021 16:29:17 GMT -5
The menu operation works plenty fast. It’s used to be super slow...so slow that I couldn’t believe it was released when the usability was so poor. It’s has very little lag now - and it’s faster with 2.2.
I never get that 2 second or more delay. I don’t understand how our units can behave so differently. Is there a QC issue?
My issue has more to do with how they structured the presets with Dirac. But since I only use 1 Dirac preset now and my experimental days are behind me, it’s fine. Not too much to complain about here.
|
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Feb 21, 2021 18:03:39 GMT -5
The menu operation works plenty fast. It’s used to be super slow...so slow that I couldn’t believe it was released when the usability was so poor. It’s has very little lag now - and it’s faster with 2.2. I never get that 2 second or more delay. I don’t understand how our units can behave so differently. Is there a QC issue? My issue has more to do with how they structured the presets with Dirac. But since I only use 1 Dirac preset now and my experimental days are behind me, it’s fine. Not too much to complain about here. After my firmware update I even did a factory reset. I feel it’s slower than 2.1 now. Not by a hugh margin. Not that it ever has felt fast. Could you please do a video when you move around in settings? I’d like to see how fast your system is. Please do a remote press and let it redraw fully before each new press. |
|
|
|
Post by tngiloy on Feb 21, 2021 18:12:38 GMT -5
Looks like we'll have to start looking forward to v2.3.
Maybe Emo should open up beta testing like Oppo did with its EAP's (early adopter program?) to get further testing before release. Worked well for them.
Maybe Emo should hire some of Oppo's unemployed coders/programmers, too. Just sayin'
|
|
