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Post by steelman1991 on May 24, 2020 11:48:41 GMT -5
Are you saying "it sounds as if DRC is on" or you actually have DRC switched on. If you have it switched on - switch it off and try again. I apologize for the confusion. It sounds as if it is on. DRC is absolutely not turned on. I understand why some would want to use DRC, but I have never had a use for it. Lastly, I'm sure we are all loosely using terms as a quick and easy way to compare what we are experiencing with real things like SPL, DRC, notch filters, etc. If I had no comparison, I wouldn't tell you Neural-X sounds bad. It's when you start comparing that you hear these things and want it to be better. You play a DD track that is up mixed to DSU and you think it sounds amazing. The original codecs sound amazing. Neural-X sounds bad. I'd much rather decode on the PC, send it PCM, and use DSU than to hear DTS-N. Hell, sending it PCM and using Direct would still sound far better in my opinion. No apology necessary - just wanted to clarify. I assumed you didn't have it turned on, but your post didn't make it clear. I'm going to bow out of this debate at the moment. Clearly I've nothing to add to enable troubleshooting because mine is working. Emo needs more users to chime on this and looks like LCSeminole is about to set the ball rolling with them. All the best to those affected. |
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Post by megash0n on May 24, 2020 12:07:20 GMT -5
I apologize for the confusion. It sounds as if it is on. DRC is absolutely not turned on. I understand why some would want to use DRC, but I have never had a use for it. Lastly, I'm sure we are all loosely using terms as a quick and easy way to compare what we are experiencing with real things like SPL, DRC, notch filters, etc. If I had no comparison, I wouldn't tell you Neural-X sounds bad. It's when you start comparing that you hear these things and want it to be better. You play a DD track that is up mixed to DSU and you think it sounds amazing. The original codecs sound amazing. Neural-X sounds bad. I'd much rather decode on the PC, send it PCM, and use DSU than to hear DTS-N. Hell, sending it PCM and using Direct would still sound far better in my opinion. No apology necessary - just wanted to clarify. I assumed you didn't have it turned on, but your post didn't make it clear. I'm going to bow out of this debate at the moment. Clearly I've nothing to add to enable troubleshooting because mine is working. Emo needs more users to chime on this and looks like LCSeminole is about to set the ball rolling with them. All the best to those affected. Really appreciate your testing and help. 😊 |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 24, 2020 12:11:06 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with the Xbox capabilities, is it capable of playing a DTS-HD MA audio track, as a coax output doesn't have the bandwidth to handle multi-channel lossless? I think, but I don't remember myself. For the coax test.. That was just going to be a basic DVD with DTS 5.1. Again, I can very easily hear this difference whether it is DTS or DTS-HD. 5.1 or 7.1 Just so I can report this properly because I have no experience with HTPC's, what exactly is your source, software used, settings and anything else that you know of that is pertinent? Meaning if Damon can't replicate this Neural:X problem some of the members are having, then he'll be shooting in the dark when working with the code writers. While this may be a DTS problem as well as DTS-HD problem, I'd like to hear anyone elses experiences if you are also experiencing this problem with a mainstream disc media 4K UHD-Bluray player and which player you are using. If this is just an HTPC issue that will at least narrow it down some. The more it's narrowed the easier it gets for Damon to replicate. |
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Post by geebo on May 24, 2020 12:29:14 GMT -5
I just tried two Eagle concerts, Hell Freezes over in DTS and Farewell Tour 1 in DTS-MA. Both exhibit a volume decrease of about 6dB when switching to Neural:X but there is no other degradation in the sound and the height speakers are producing sound with Neural:X engaged. The only thing I experience with Neural:X is a decrease in volume with some titles but not all. When the volumes is raised to compensate the sound is at least as good as Surround mode. And each specific disc always behaves the same way for me no matter how many times I try it.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 24, 2020 12:48:52 GMT -5
I just tried two Eagle concerts, Hell Freezes over in DTS and Farewell Tour 1 in DTS-MA. Both exhibit a volume decrease of about 6dB when switching to Neural:X but there is no other degradation in the sound and the height speakers are producing sound with Neural:X engaged. The only thing I experience with Neural:X is a decrease in volume with some titles but not all. When the volumes is raised to compensate the sound is at least as good as Surround mode. And each specific disc always behaves the same way for me no matter how many times I try it. I too get differences in volume, but I believe those to be the various movie studios or even the audio mastering process. Anyhow like you, raising the volume does the trick, as the Disney/Marvel movies are notorious for mastering their movies 5-10db lower than say the Sony Pictures Marvel movies like Spider Man and Venom. ...........anyhow, back to priming my kitchen cabinet doors.  |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on May 24, 2020 13:00:06 GMT -5
With the video output set to " 4K Auto", the 8805 reports receiving " 4K:60Hz/BT.2020/YCbCr 4:2:2/12bit". With the video output setting at 1080p/60fps, the 8805 sees " 1080p:60Hz/YCbCr 4:2:2/8bit". Setting the output to 1080i showed the same results as 1080p. It's interesting to note that using "4K Auto" setting will require 17.8 Gbps of HDMI bandwidth (see the chart I've attached below) which is the maximum supported by the HDMI 2.0 spec. We'd better be using a "proven" HDMI 2.0 Certified High Speed cable to properly support that..!! It's also interesting to note that they're also not using proper colorimetry support, but are instead packing Rec.709 (SDR) into a BT.2020 (wide) color gamut. Without proper tone-mapping, this shouldn't be done. Both Nvidia and Apple were guilty of this, but fixed it by adding the appropriate "match range" setting. In regards to your results, I'm now wondering why the RMC-1 does not show the same HDMI signal input information as I'm receiving using my 8805. I can confirm that the signal sent from the TiVo is exactly what the 8805 sees. Additionally, you can go to THIS thread and see post #6 for further confirmation. The only problem is that TiVo's engineering didn't "fix" anything... all they've done is to fix the firmware to now read the "flags" correctly within the infoframe. Ted Malone left TiVo in February, 2020. Top image is the TiVo connected to OPPO 105 input, bottom is directly to XMC-2. TiVo is set to HDR-Off.  ========================================================= edit: I was in a rush yesterday - late getting out of the house, made a mistake. These are corrected images.This is with the TiVo sent directly to a Epson 5040 projector. TiVo set to HDR-Off.  HDR-Auto  =========================================================
edit: I was in a rush yesterday, made a mistake. These are corrected images.TiVo sent directly to XMC-2, then to Epson projector and Sony tv. XMC-2 Info can be seen just under the Epson info. HDR-Off  HDR-Auto  I can't make a conclusion on any of this as it seems that different devices report what they want to report. |
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Post by sahmen on May 24, 2020 13:28:30 GMT -5
Simple config question: What is the best way of connecting to the XMC-2, a sub (actually two Power Sound Audio subs) without XLR inputs? Since I am connecting two subs, will using the L & R Zone 2 analog RCA output plugs work as a workaround, or will that be a bad idea? One can do crossover settings on the subs themselves, but I would also ideally like to do some bass management on the XMC-2 if possible.  |
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Post by foggy1956 on May 24, 2020 13:57:29 GMT -5
Simple config question: What is the best way of connecting to the XMC-2, a sub (actually two Power Sound Audio subs) without XLR inputs? Since I am connecting two subs, will using the L & R Zone 2 analog RCA output plugs work as a workaround, or will that be a bad idea? One can do crossover settings on the subs themselves, but I would also ideally like to do some bass management on the XMC-2 if possible. Use the left and right subouts with xlr to rca adapters |
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Post by novisnick on May 24, 2020 14:15:33 GMT -5
Simple config question: What is the best way of connecting to the XMC-2, a sub (actually two Power Sound Audio subs) without XLR inputs? Since I am connecting two subs, will using the L & R Zone 2 analog RCA output plugs work as a workaround, or will that be a bad idea? One can do crossover settings on the subs themselves, but I would also ideally like to do some bass management on the XMC-2 if possible. Use the left and right subouts with xlr to rca adapters I’m with foggy1956 , it’s exactly how my two PSA subs are connected. Set your dials on the subs to half and do your bass management via XMC-2 as normal. No problems, no worries! Enjoy the system |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 24, 2020 14:27:38 GMT -5
Simple config question: What is the best way of connecting to the XMC-2, a sub (actually two Power Sound Audio subs) without XLR inputs? Since I am connecting two subs, will using the L & R Zone 2 analog RCA output plugs work as a workaround, or will that be a bad idea? One can do crossover settings on the subs themselves, but I would also ideally like to do some bass management on the XMC-2 if possible. Use the left and right subouts with xlr to rca adapters Exactly what I'd do as well, I'm just surprised that the PSA's don't have XLR inputs. |
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Post by sahmen on May 24, 2020 14:30:40 GMT -5
Thanks, foggy1956 and novisnick : could you supply a link to any particular XLR to RCA adapters which have worked well for you in this particular application? |
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Post by novisnick on May 24, 2020 14:43:38 GMT -5
Thanks, foggy1956 and novisnick : could you supply a link to any particular XLR to RCA adapters which have worked well for you in this particular application? These have worked well since day one. They’re on sale and come in many lengths. www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=4777Amazon has better pricing sometimes and with Prime there’s free shipping. Monoprice XLR Male to RCA Male Cable - 50 Feet - Black with E21Gold Plated Connectors | 16AWG Shielded Twisted Pair Oxygen-Free Copper Braid Conductors - Premier Series www.amazon.com/dp/B0084PCDYY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_w.SYEbG7R8YRE |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 24, 2020 14:48:53 GMT -5
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Post by novisnick on May 24, 2020 15:10:08 GMT -5
Nice, they weren’t available when I purchased my RMC-1. They were rather late to market for me. |
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Post by doc1963 on May 24, 2020 15:28:24 GMT -5
... I can't make a conclusion on any of this as it seems that different devices report what they want to report. Actually, in your first example (Oppo's HDMI In versus your XMC-2's HDMI In... then to your TV), they do agree. Your TiVo is sending 720p:60Hz/YCbCr 4:4:4/12bit, but your Oppo just reports the incoming bit-depth a little differently (36bit = 12bits x 3 colors). Your Oppo is reprocessing the video (because it can) and sending 1080p:60Hz/YCbCr 4:4:4/8bit from its HDMI output. What your Oppo is actually sending is more conducive to the HDMI spec and is all that's really necessary for that type of SDR signal. That's more what I would expect to see. While upstream EDID should always dictate what is sent from the source, where I see odd behavior is what your Epson projector is reporting as being received from your Tivo when connected through the XMC-2. First, in this scenario (as well as in your first scenario), your Tivo is connected directly to your XMC-2. But in the first example, your TiVo is sending 12bit color. Whereas in this example, it's sending 8bit color. I'll assume that the projector's EDID is dictating "no support for 12bit color", so the TiVo will not send 12bit. But then why not 10bit..? HDR-10 requires 10 bits of information per color. Your projector is capable of both 10bit color and HDR-10. Also in this example, the XMC-2 is reporting receiving "1080p/60 - 8bits - RGB 4:4:4 - HDR". Huh..? If HDR-10 requires "10 bits", how can it be 8bit HDR...? Dolby Vision can do this using 8bit color through RGB tunneling (which encodes the dynamic metadata within the least significant bits of the chroma channels), but this does not apply to (and is not used for) HDR-10. So I'm stumped by this one...  This will be my first "experiment" when I receive my RMC-1L... |
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Post by bluescale on May 24, 2020 15:39:41 GMT -5
Sorry my friend - I've tried all your methods to try and re-create what you're experiencing and I can't, running an RMC-1. I even disabled my tops to give me a 7.1 and tried a 5.1 DTS-HD MA track (The Dark Knight). in this configuration (or any for that matter), I get what I expect from the mode - no perceivable changes in dynamics, perhaps a minute drop in volume between Neural:X and Direct - nothing between Neural:X and Surround. No smearing, no blankets thrown over the front array and definitely a track with "balls to spare" - sorry @megashon With the tops disabled , when engaging Neural:X, the initial sounds to the rear speakers consist of some very low level ambient street noise, until the two robbers zip line from one building to the roof of the other, at that point there is even some some bass action mixed with the ambient sounds which come from the rears. The gunfire in the robbery is powerful and chest slamming in any of the modes and the rears continue to provide background support to the track. Dark Knight is my reference title for both audio and video, and I can tell you without a doubt that this problem (reduced dynamics when Neural:X engages) occurs for me when watching it. That's the movie where I recognized the problem in the first place. I noticed plenty of subwoofer umph, but it's in the mid and upper registers that things get bad. Interestingly, I'm *also* using JRiver to play movies. Also, I haven't watched a DTS movie since upgrading to 1.10. So, in a few minutes, I'll do some testing with the actual Dark Knight disk to see if that makes a difference. I'll also check to make sure there aren't any possible JRiver/Windows 10 settings that could be causing this issue. I'm skeptical of that point, but it is a common thread, so it needs to be investigated. |
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Post by frenchyfranky on May 24, 2020 15:40:30 GMT -5
Digital input (usb) - zone 2 dedicated L/R anlog output - patio amp Ok, to test whether this is the same or a different issue. Is Zone 2 set to the USB Input, or Follow Main? If it’s set to Follow Main, try changing it to USB and see if the static goes away. Edit: Also, when you have the static is it only in one channel? You got it, zone 2 input was set to follow main, I changed it for usb stream and static noise disappeared, also note that it plays louder and more dynamic. Yes the static noise is always in the left channel. |
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Post by markc on May 24, 2020 15:48:51 GMT -5
I just tried two Eagle concerts, Hell Freezes over in DTS and Farewell Tour 1 in DTS-MA. Both exhibit a volume decrease of about 6dB when switching to Neural:X but there is no other degradation in the sound and the height speakers are producing sound with Neural:X engaged. The only thing I experience with Neural:X is a decrease in volume with some titles but not all. When the volumes is raised to compensate the sound is at least as good as Surround mode. And each specific disc always behaves the same way for me no matter how many times I try it. I too get differences in volume, but I believe those to be the various movie studios or even the audio mastering process. Anyhow like you, raising the volume does the trick, as the Disney/Marvel movies are notorious for mastering their movies 5-10db lower than say the Sony Pictures Marvel movies like Spider Man and Venom. ...........anyhow, back to priming my kitchen cabinet doors. I don't want us to distract from the cause of issue here - I wish it were not the case, but there is absolutely a definite problem with implementation of dts Neural:X in a very basic and fundamental situation on my XMC-2 (A 7.1. speaker setup in my case (plus height speakers for Megash0n)). What occurs is a simple switch from normal audio output without Neural:X to poor (cloudy, smeared, indistinct) and lower volume audio simply by the engagement of the dts Neural:X surround listening mode. I noticed it within one hour of getting my XMC-2 delivered, and it has not gone away or been intermittent. I have hard reset, unplugged etc etc, held my breath to reinstall the firmware (Sometimes they brick!) and fiddled with every setting possible and the Emotiva simply doesn't do what it should. I have had an XMC-1 for 5 years. I know what 5.1 to 7.1 dts upmixing is meant to sound like! The poor performance is not user error or because of a wild or wacky setup. It is present in a simple 7.1 (and 7.2) situation with speakers set to either "all small" or "all large", with either same crossovers for all speakers or different ones for different size/capability speakers, With no bi-amping enabled (This functions is faulty for another reason - see my bug fixes needed at the end). It is not source dependant. Not PC vs Blu-ray vs DVD vs AppleTV It is not audio resolution related: Not lossy DTS vs lossless DTS-HD MA nor poorly or differently mastered tracks It is not "other DSP processing dependant" - not affected by selecting or deselecting Dynamic range control nor the Loudness setting nor trims that is causing the problem. I don't use PEQ nor enhanced bass etc It is not affected by speaker size (all small vs all large) nor by same or different crossovers nor by 12/24dB Crossover slope It is not secondary audio being mixed in from the Blu-ray player. It affects 5.1 tracks being upmixed to 7.1. (Resulting audio sounds terrible) It affects 7.1 being "upmixed" (Unfortunately when not required!) to 7.1 (when "Auto" selects Neural:X as the relevant surround mode for 7.1 to 7.1) (Resulting audio sounds terrible) Quite simply, it is the implementation of dts Neural:X in some situations, and, unfortunately for me, in every situation every single time that dts Neural:X is enabled either manually or automatically in the processor. (As previously mentioned, sometimes the front panel shows Neural:X as enabled, but it isn't! Sound is normal and good character with no volume drop and there is no upmixing occurring (my Rear Surrounds are silent with a 5,1 source, with Neural:X supposedly enabled i.e. it is not. In this case, toggling it and getting it to enable destroys the sound) Confirmed this afternoon with both my Oppo BDP-105 EU bitstreaming Blu-ray and then with a Sony UBP-X800 (4K blu-ray / SACD player) that I plugged in. The biggest confirmation that it is not the source, but the action of the dts Neural:X transcoder with 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 PCM (PCM is PCM. No flags, nor Dynamic Range Control flags, just digital audio) resulting in the same foggy front soundstage at a lower volume, by increasing the volume by 6-7dB does not restore the dynamics. Dolby surround does a stellar job upmixing 2.0 or 5.1 to 7.1 in all of these settings whereas the output of dts Neural:X is intolerable. Yes. No melodrama. Intolerable. Not just quiet! I like to hear what the actors are saying, not mumbling. With 100% certainty there is something like internal audio extraction going on to speakers that do not exist in the 7.1 speaker configuration. I can get a similar effect by turning off the XPA-5 amplifier that has my centre speaker, both surrounds and one rear surround and then use the excellent Dolby Surround to upmix stereo. Audio is there one minute with no upmixing (2.0 over stereo speakers) and then turn on Dolby surround and audio is extracted and lost because some of my speakers are not powered up. My unfortunate workaround: bypass the processing on my £3500 Surround Sound Processor! Not quite what I paid for, but it is necessary. In my trawl through my Blu-ray discs for test material, I was struck how I have just 8 Dolby TrueHD 5.1 discs, 2 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 disks and 10 Atmos disks. Almost every single other disc is DTS-HD MA 5.1 and 7.1 (dts really has the market!) so my Emotiva cannot properly decode and play 80% of my Blu-rays! I don't have the patience of Megash0n to reach for the remote every time I get a DTS source and switch it to "Surround" in order to get good sound (but sacrifice my 7.1 Rear Surrounds in the process) My workaround is to set my Oppo BDP-105EU to output PCM over HDMI, so no bitstreaming. (DTS or Dolby) This mostly works for me as I have a 7.1 setup so no use for Atmos or DTS:X. However I do lose Dynamic Range Control on the XMC-2 for late night listening. This way I get 5.1 movies to my XMC-2 in 5.1 PCM and use the XMC-2's excellent Dolby Surround mode to upmix to 7.1 I get 7.1 movies in 7.1 PCM With my HTPC and JRiver I can be more discriminatory: I can automatically Bitstream Dolby over HDMI to the XMC-2 (all variants including Atmos) and I can set it to automatically convert all DTS to PCM (2.0, 5.2 and 7.1) so that the XMC-2 used the Dolby Surround Upmixer automatically. I should not need to do this on a modern, expensive Surround Sound Processor! Bugs that I think need to be raised: 1) Front Wide channel configuration to Bi-amp the Fronts works to duplicate the Front left and right but causes both Dolby Surround Upmixer and dts Neural:X upmixers to be called in to use when not needed. (e.g. Playing 7.1 in a 7.1 system) 2) There is NO WAY on these processors to reliably up-mix 5.1 dts to use all speakers in a 7.1 configuration. The Neural:X is not always doing the expected and usual simple job of just extracting audio from the Side Surrounds to fill the rear surrounds 3) When Auto mode selects a Surround mode based on what signal is being played, the correct Upmixer way well be displayed on the front panel, but is not always actually working (So still no 5.1 to 76.1 upmixing). Mostly toggling this manually with the Setup/Main menu fixes it but sometimes it doesn't. 4) dts Neural:X is producing unexpected behaviour in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing (and, for Megash0n, 5.1/7.1 to 7.1.4) (and also in the "7.1 to 7.1" that occurs with bi-amping enabled!) . This type of upmixing should NOT affect the three front channels (making dialogue indistinct in particular and lowering the overall volume as a result) |
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Post by sahmen on May 24, 2020 16:38:08 GMT -5
Any ideas for height speaker stands that would be conducive for atmos?
My ideal preference would be for in-ceiling speakers. I have a good number of them already waiting in boxes, but I cannot use them now, because I am sort of stuck in limbo, living temporarily in an apartment, here in Massachusetts, until our vacated home in one state (Ohio) sells, freeing us to move into a new home in our current state of residence (Massachusetts). In the meantime, the show must go on, and I have two pairs of very versatile speakers that I can use for atmos duties provided I can find speaker stands for them that would enable them to be played from, a height of, 8 feet or more above floor-level while angled in the direction of my listening position.
Amy ideas? I can also mount these speakers on the wall and point them to the listening position, but I'd rather not make any holes for the mounts in the walls if I can help it, since this is an apartment. The mobile or movable speaker stands idea seems ideal, but I cannot seem to find any that will be high enough to serve Atmos/height speakers.
Any thoughts, or suggestions of strategies would be highly appreciated.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 24, 2020 16:40:49 GMT -5
Sorry my friend - I've tried all your methods to try and re-create what you're experiencing and I can't, running an RMC-1. I even disabled my tops to give me a 7.1 and tried a 5.1 DTS-HD MA track (The Dark Knight). in this configuration (or any for that matter), I get what I expect from the mode - no perceivable changes in dynamics, perhaps a minute drop in volume between Neural:X and Direct - nothing between Neural:X and Surround. No smearing, no blankets thrown over the front array and definitely a track with "balls to spare" - sorry @megashon With the tops disabled , when engaging Neural:X, the initial sounds to the rear speakers consist of some very low level ambient street noise, until the two robbers zip line from one building to the roof of the other, at that point there is even some some bass action mixed with the ambient sounds which come from the rears. The gunfire in the robbery is powerful and chest slamming in any of the modes and the rears continue to provide background support to the track. Dark Knight is my reference title for both audio and video, and I can tell you without a doubt that this problem (reduced dynamics when Neural:X engages) occurs for me when watching it. That's the movie where I recognized the problem in the first place. I noticed plenty of subwoofer umph, but it's in the mid and upper registers that things get bad. Interestingly, I'm *also* using JRiver to play movies. Also, I haven't watched a DTS movie since upgrading to 1.10. So, in a few minutes, I'll do some testing with the actual Dark Knight disk to see if that makes a difference. I'll also check to make sure there aren't any possible JRiver/Windows 10 settings that could be causing this issue. I'm skeptical of that point, but it is a common thread, so it needs to be investigated. I also just disabled my height channels to try out 7.1 with the Dark Knight 4K UHD-blurays so maybe I could replicate what you, markc and megashOn are experiencing and I'm not hearing what you all are describing. I believe you all are experiencing what you say you are, I just can't replicate it. |
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