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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 8:59:27 GMT -5
Here are two images. This first is the raw measurements (which I saved on my PC)  The second is after DIRAC filters were applied.  You can see the DIRAC filters have really brought down the subwoofer output. Going in I expected the DIRAC filters to have tamed the peaks so the valleys would no longer be present, but that didn't happen. The valleys in the sub output are still there, just at a lower dB. Edit: when level setting the speakers to 15dB in DIRAC, I had to set the subwoofer to -8dB. I tried not bringing it down but DIRAC said it was clipping. bump. BTW, the bass definitely sounds neutered. It's cleaner and the midrange and imaging is significantly improved but movies lose their impact and it's quite noticeable. First ... the target curve for your sub rolls off too quickly. It should go flat to 120Hz and then roll off 12db/octave. That will make a difference especially if your bass management (small speaker bass) goes to your sub. It's the perennial Dirac dilemma ... I haven't come up with the ultimate response to this, but I'll try. Dirac's purpose is room correction. Everyone's room has a big bass peak somewhere between 40Hz and 70Hz, usually followed by a deep null, followed by one or more lesser peaks and nulls. The peaks are accompanied by long decay resonances. All of this combined to create a boominess that masks adjacent bass sounds, along with hollow sounding bass at the nulls. This is irrespective of what kind of speaker you have and typically irrespective of whatever "treatment" you might have ... even if you have a few bass traps. The most important thing Dirac does is mitigate the peaks - and sometimes the dips - in response below 200Hz that are strictly due to room resonances. It does this very well. But there is no way Dirac can correct the response of the room without the bass sounding less prominent after correction than it did before. But the corrected response is the correct response ... it reproducers the music and movie soundtracks as they were recorded. Many people don't like it. They want "more bass", "more slam". The best answer is to now address speakers and amplifiers. Or .... just pump up the Dirac response curve to where you like it. |
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Post by jjkessler on Jan 29, 2021 11:19:36 GMT -5
Running into an odd issue after trying to run Dirac on my RMC-1L where it appears like either two speakers are now blown , two mono blocks are blown (no fault lights ), or two channels on the processor are down. I’ll change outputs with known good ones to try and pinpoint either the processor or the two speakers.
Has anyone else had this problem?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 29, 2021 11:52:34 GMT -5
I would agree that most of us would want a more or less flat response for their sub...
However I'm not quite sure why you're suggesting that the Target Curve should roll off on the top... It's up to the Bass Management to handle the low pass portion of crossover between the sub and the main channels... And the LFE channel itself shouldn't have a roll off in its active range either...
(So, while adding a 120 Hz 12 dB/octave roll off to the Target Curve shouldn't hurt anything much.... I don't see any benefit either. ) (And, at least in theory, by asking Dirac to alter the response where it doesn't matter, you are "diverting resources that could be used elsewhere".) marcl bump. BTW, the bass definitely sounds neutered. It's cleaner and the midrange and imaging is significantly improved but movies lose their impact and it's quite noticeable. First ... the target curve for your sub rolls off too quickly. It should go flat to 120Hz and then roll off 12db/octave. That will make a difference especially if your bass management (small speaker bass) goes to your sub. It's the perennial Dirac dilemma ... I haven't come up with the ultimate response to this, but I'll try. Dirac's purpose is room correction. Everyone's room has a big bass peak somewhere between 40Hz and 70Hz, usually followed by a deep null, followed by one or more lesser peaks and nulls. The peaks are accompanied by long decay resonances. All of this combined to create a boominess that masks adjacent bass sounds, along with hollow sounding bass at the nulls. This is irrespective of what kind of speaker you have and typically irrespective of whatever "treatment" you might have ... even if you have a few bass traps. The most important thing Dirac does is mitigate the peaks - and sometimes the dips - in response below 200Hz that are strictly due to room resonances. It does this very well. But there is no way Dirac can correct the response of the room without the bass sounding less prominent after correction than it did before. But the corrected response is the correct response ... it reproducers the music and movie soundtracks as they were recorded. Many people don't like it. They want "more bass", "more slam". The best answer is to now address speakers and amplifiers. Or .... just pump up the Dirac response curve to where you like it. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 12:10:18 GMT -5
I would agree that most of us would want a more or less flat response for their sub...
However I'm not quite sure why you're suggesting that the Target Curve should roll off on the top... It's up to the Bass Management to handle the low pass portion of crossover between the sub and the main channels... And the LFE channel itself shouldn't have a roll off in its active range either...
(So, while adding a 120 Hz 12 dB/octave roll off to the Target Curve shouldn't hurt anything much.... I don't see any benefit either. ) (And, at least in theory, by asking Dirac to alter the response where it doesn't matter, you are "diverting resources that could be used elsewhere".) First ... the target curve for your sub rolls off too quickly. It should go flat to 120Hz and then roll off 12db/octave. That will make a difference especially if your bass management (small speaker bass) goes to your sub. It's the perennial Dirac dilemma ... I haven't come up with the ultimate response to this, but I'll try. Dirac's purpose is room correction. Everyone's room has a big bass peak somewhere between 40Hz and 70Hz, usually followed by a deep null, followed by one or more lesser peaks and nulls. The peaks are accompanied by long decay resonances. All of this combined to create a boominess that masks adjacent bass sounds, along with hollow sounding bass at the nulls. This is irrespective of what kind of speaker you have and typically irrespective of whatever "treatment" you might have ... even if you have a few bass traps. The most important thing Dirac does is mitigate the peaks - and sometimes the dips - in response below 200Hz that are strictly due to room resonances. It does this very well. But there is no way Dirac can correct the response of the room without the bass sounding less prominent after correction than it did before. But the corrected response is the correct response ... it reproducers the music and movie soundtracks as they were recorded. Many people don't like it. They want "more bass", "more slam". The best answer is to now address speakers and amplifiers. Or .... just pump up the Dirac response curve to where you like it. Agreed. My main point to jagman was that when I looked at his measurement vs his target curve, his sub measures up well above 100Hz, but his target curve starts rolling off at 40Hz ... wow that's really bad. He needs to move the target curve to either not roll off at all, or at least let it go to 120Hz. Yeah, could be a resource tradeoff with Dirac filters. The reason I roll it off is so amps and speakers are doing as little as possible above 120Hz. There might even be distortion up there that we'd rather not hear. |
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richb
Sensei
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Posts: 889
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Post by richb on Jan 29, 2021 12:11:46 GMT -5
I would agree that most of us would want a more or less flat response for their sub...
However I'm not quite sure why you're suggesting that the Target Curve should roll off on the top... It's up to the Bass Management to handle the low pass portion of crossover between the sub and the main channels... And the LFE channel itself shouldn't have a roll off in its active range either...
(So, while adding a 120 Hz 12 dB/octave roll off to the Target Curve shouldn't hurt anything much.... I don't see any benefit either. ) (And, at least in theory, by asking Dirac to alter the response where it doesn't matter, you are "diverting resources that could be used elsewhere".) First ... the target curve for your sub rolls off too quickly. It should go flat to 120Hz and then roll off 12db/octave. That will make a difference especially if your bass management (small speaker bass) goes to your sub. It's the perennial Dirac dilemma ... I haven't come up with the ultimate response to this, but I'll try. Dirac's purpose is room correction. Everyone's room has a big bass peak somewhere between 40Hz and 70Hz, usually followed by a deep null, followed by one or more lesser peaks and nulls. The peaks are accompanied by long decay resonances. All of this combined to create a boominess that masks adjacent bass sounds, along with hollow sounding bass at the nulls. This is irrespective of what kind of speaker you have and typically irrespective of whatever "treatment" you might have ... even if you have a few bass traps. The most important thing Dirac does is mitigate the peaks - and sometimes the dips - in response below 200Hz that are strictly due to room resonances. It does this very well. But there is no way Dirac can correct the response of the room without the bass sounding less prominent after correction than it did before. But the corrected response is the correct response ... it reproducers the music and movie soundtracks as they were recorded. Many people don't like it. They want "more bass", "more slam". The best answer is to now address speakers and amplifiers. Or .... just pump up the Dirac response curve to where you like it. I can see how someone might want to roll off the LFE to reduce subwoofer localization that is not necessary if you have multiple subs. - Rich |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jan 29, 2021 12:21:13 GMT -5
Here's what Dirac measured and targeted for my LFE subs. I don't have a screenshot of the current LFE sub setup which is improved from this image, but this will get the point across. I didn't touch the Curtains for this run, but it shows the LFE subs extending up past 200Hz without rolling off.  And this is to show what REW measured which shows the LFE rolloff.  edit: One point marcl has about cutting off the unused range above LFE spec is probably what I should do also. You can see that there are some high frequencies that will still be present even if a low levels, as can be seen in the Dirac screenshot. It's probably better to cut them off completely so there's no chance of extra freqs floating around. I never really bothered to look at the range above the curtain, so I wasn't aware that the subs are "trying" to make sound above 300Hz. |
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 29, 2021 12:27:08 GMT -5
Here are two images. This first is the raw measurements (which I saved on my PC) The second is after DIRAC filters were applied. You can see the DIRAC filters have really brought down the subwoofer output. Going in I expected the DIRAC filters to have tamed the peaks so the valleys would no longer be present, but that didn't happen. The valleys in the sub output are still there, just at a lower dB. Edit: when level setting the speakers to 15dB in DIRAC, I had to set the subwoofer to -8dB. I tried not bringing it down but DIRAC said it was clipping. bump. BTW, the bass definitely sounds neutered. It's cleaner and the midrange and imaging is significantly improved but movies lose their impact and it's quite noticeable. Wow! How on earth did you get your sub to measure 15-20db (and more) higher than the rest of the speakers? If you are customed to the huge bass with this setup I can imagine you think correct leveled bass sound neutered. Acouple of things, why do you use different curves for your speakers? It’s really not recommended. Also you will miss the crossover point this way. If you like bass, set your Dirac curve with Harman 10db, for all your speakers. Then cross them so your sub deals with most of the <80hz sound. Your sub seems to measure high or leveled up to about 130-150hz, then drops at 200hz and goes up again. Use Harman 10db and steer the drop after about 130-140hz. This my recommendation. I agree with Marcl that it seems to drop too early. But it can be the quite the drop you have at 200hz. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 12:48:57 GMT -5
marcl bump. BTW, the bass definitely sounds neutered. It's cleaner and the midrange and imaging is significantly improved but movies lose their impact and it's quite noticeable. Wow! How on earth did you get your sub to measure 15-20db (and more) higher than the rest of the speakers? If you are customed to the huge bass with this setup I can imagine you think correct leveled bass sound neutered. Acouple of things, why do you use different curves for your speakers? It’s really not recommended. Also you will miss the crossover point this way. If you like bass, set your Dirac curve with Harman 10db, for all your speakers. Then cross them so your sub deals with most of the <80hz sound. Your sub seems to measure high or leveled up to about 130-150hz, then drops at 200hz and goes up again. Use Harman 10db and steer the drop after about 130-140hz. This my recommendation. I agree with Marcl that it seems to drop too early. But it can be the quite the drop you have at 200hz. Yes that is wild that the sub measures so high! I thought I was seeing things. That will most certainly affect the overall output levels. I play with my volume calibration in Dirac to be sure the sub peak matches the peaks of the fronts at the same frequency below 100Hz. To accomplish that - in my system - I set the sub level about 8db higher than all the other channels, and then it measures the same at the peak. This results in higher volume level when listening to all sources. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 29, 2021 13:45:27 GMT -5
Just a question? IF you let the sub go to 120hz, at what frequency do you roll off the MAIN speakers?
And slopes of the rolloff......??
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Post by jjkessler on Jan 29, 2021 13:54:40 GMT -5
Starting this Friday off in a tough way. Confirmed that somehow while running Dirac on my RMC-1L, I have blown out two of my Axiom QS-8 speakers (all other speakers are fine including 2 more of the 4 QS-8’s I have). All speakers had test tones during the level set process but, stopped in the sweep process due to clipping and were dead afterwards
It’s odd that all the drivers in both units are dead and reached out to Axiom to see if they are fused internally
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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 14:19:24 GMT -5
Starting this Friday off in a tough way. Confirmed that somehow while running Dirac on my RMC-1L, I have blown out two of my Axiom QS-8 speakers (all other speakers are fine including 2 more of the 4 QS-8’s I have). All speakers had test tones during the level set process but, stopped in the sweep process due to clipping and were dead afterwards It’s odd that all the drivers in both units are dead and reached out to Axiom to see if they are fused internally Yikes, that sucks! Hopefully fuses. One time I accidentally had my levels too high doing REW sweeps and blew both tweeter fuses on my fronts. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 14:22:54 GMT -5
Just a question? IF you let the sub go to 120hz, at what frequency do you roll off the MAIN speakers? And slopes of the rolloff......?? My mains are set to large so they run full range. They respond down to 40Hz. I split the outputs of the L/R and combine one set to mono and feed the miniDSP Input 2 (Center Sub output goes to Input 1). In the miniDSP I take the mono L/R and low pass 48db/octave at 35Hz. This gives me a smooth transition from the mains to the subs. So LFE only goes right to the subs for their full range. Bass management goes to the L/R which in turn go to subs only below 35Hz |
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Post by dhiru79 on Jan 29, 2021 14:54:37 GMT -5
Hi looking some help. i just ran dirac. I am not to technical, so just a basic setup after running dirac, how do I set correct crossovers, i have set crossover slope to 12db and using 6db Harman curve.
Set up:
Kef R7
Kef:R600C
Kef:R300
SVS:SB4000
SVS:SB3000
Velydon Optimum 10
Emotiva XMC2
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Post by jjkessler on Jan 29, 2021 15:11:40 GMT -5
Well, luck is looking up. Even though my Axiom QS-8’s are 5-Years old, they will repair both as a warranty repair.
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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 15:15:26 GMT -5
Hi looking some help. i just ran dirac. I am not to technical, so just a basic setup after running dirac, how do I set correct crossovers, i have set crossover slope to 12db and using 6db Harman curve. Set up: Kef R7 Kef:R600C Kef:R300 SVS:SB4000 SVS:SB3000 Velydon Optimum 10 Emotiva XMC2 Take a look at the Dirac measurement for each small speaker. That gives you a good look at the actual low end rolloff in your room. Set the crossover 10-20 Hz higher than that. If you can run REW to measure the actual response after you load the Dirac filters, you can try different crossovers until you get the smoothest transition, and also try 12 vs 24 db/octave. |
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Post by dhiru79 on Jan 29, 2021 15:34:18 GMT -5
i am not not familiar on how to use REW. still learning  . Is this correct you multiply by 2 around around 47hz or set the crossover at around 60hz.
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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 15:51:24 GMT -5
i am not not familiar on how to use REW. still learning . Is this correct you multiply by 2 around around 47hz or set the crossover at around 60hz.
First, you have to check the box under Measured-Spectrum. That will show you the measured response. Here's an example of my Left Top Front speaker. The uneven blue line is the measured response and as you can see it drops off around 100Hz. So I set my crossover at 110Hz.  In this example I have my target curve set to flat response. The predicted response is hard to see but it's the squiggly blue line under the orange target. Actual response measured in REW would be close to that but not exact. |
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Post by dhiru79 on Jan 29, 2021 17:04:02 GMT -5
 so what crossover would be setting for this, so just so knowledge. thanks |
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Post by marcl on Jan 29, 2021 17:12:01 GMT -5
View Attachment so what crossover would be setting for this, so just so knowledge. thanks Your fronts go down pretty low and you have a big room resonance at 60Hz which Dirac will have no trouble flattening out.. 40Hz is as low as you can go. If your sub goes down to 20Hz then you can cross the fronts at 40Hz. Otherwise just set them as large. |
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Post by dhiru79 on Jan 29, 2021 17:26:21 GMT -5
This is subs curve  |
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