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Post by leonski on Jan 29, 2021 17:34:23 GMT -5
Starting this Friday off in a tough way. Confirmed that somehow while running Dirac on my RMC-1L, I have blown out two of my Axiom QS-8 speakers (all other speakers are fine including 2 more of the 4 QS-8βs I have). All speakers had test tones during the level set process but, stopped in the sweep process due to clipping and were dead afterwards Itβs odd that all the drivers in both units are dead and reached out to Axiom to see if they are fused internally Probably ARE fused internally. MIght be called a Voice Coil...... |
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Post by leonski on Jan 29, 2021 17:35:35 GMT -5
Why do people run subs up to the point where they can be localized bby EAR?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 17:48:39 GMT -5
Why do people run subs up to the point where they can be localized bby EAR? Because such subs are desirably located near enough another loud speaker which extends higher? For example LFE sub(s) located near center channel should provide frequencies the center isn't capable while being located near enough that those frequencies are not perceived as detached. Remember, what may sound good in high fidelity audio as in instrumental replication may not be enough for cinema. For example, a Hifi audio system may replicate realistic volumes instrumental percussions such as drums outstandingly but be lacking when it comes to an action film where heavy artillery - a howitzer firing, 120mm round from an AC-130 Spectre "Spooky" gunship overhead in ground pounding support, or a simple lobbed grenade detonating nearby into a foxhole during lifelike cinema experience to put you there in the middle of the scene. When that technical mounted uptop a vehicle w/ sternum punching .50 cal pulls up behind you and starts laying down cover fire there's a harmonious crossfire of low to mid bass frequency that can't be captured unless all those LFE subs around the listener are capable of producing the lifelike volumes and frequency a .50 cal is capable. Be back, gotta run towards the chopper in Black Hawk Down where 8hz is felt from the whirling blades above. Or what's dat one scene in BHD when one guys asks the other is that M249 SAW loud? When it goes off he lost his hearing!!! Some systems can replicate the chest pounding blitz........ while others replicate in small scale. Just as real percussion and stringed instruments are the standard bearer for replication so are other non musical instruments in cinema: www.avosound.com/en/sound-effects/search/gun/gun-machine-gun-m249/ |
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Post by leonski on Jan 29, 2021 19:29:55 GMT -5
Why do people run subs up to the point where they can be localized bby EAR? Because such subs are desirably located near enough another loud speaker which extends higher? For example LFE sub(s) located near center channel should provide frequencies the center isn't capable while being located near enough that those frequencies are not perceived as detached. Remember, what may sound good in high fidelity audio as in instrumental replication may not be enough for cinema. For example, a Hifi audio system may replicate realistic volumes instrumental percussions such as drums outstandingly but be lacking when it comes to an action film where heavy artillery - a howitzer firing, 120mm round from an AC-130 Spectre "Spooky" gunship overhead in ground pounding support, or a simple lobbed grenade detonating nearby into a foxhole during lifelike cinema experience to put you there in the middle of the scene. When that technical mounted uptop a vehicle w/ sternum punching .50 cal pulls up behind you and starts laying down cover fire there's a harmonious crossfire of low to mid bass frequency that can't be captured unless all those LFE subs around the listener are capable of producing the lifelike volumes and frequency a .50 cal is capable. Be back, gotta run towards the chopper in Black Hawk Down where 8hz is felt from the whirling blades above. Or what's dat one scene in BHD when one guys asks the other is that M249 SAW loud? When it goes off he lost his hearing!!! Some systems can replicate the chest pounding blitz........ Just as real percussion and stringed instruments are the standard bearer for replication so are other non musical instruments in cinema: www.avosound.com/en/sound-effects/search/gun/gun-machine-gun-m249/Even though nobody actually knows how that stuff sounds? My sub will cause stuff on the walls to rattle. The Dino walking in first Jurassic Park can be felt. And you can feel the low pedal tone from SaintSaens Symphony #3 'With Organ'.....But not at a high enough amplitude to cause structural problems with my house! That is the musical exception. The other sort-of exception is the TELARC recording of Malcom Prager playing Chopin using a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand. Chest Thumping with the additional octave provided by 97 keys....not 88..... You are perhaps talking OVERTONES of fundamental frequencies. That's why I think image and stage is better With a Sub. My sub with 24db / octave high cut filter is DONE at about 80hz to 90hz. My mains use a 12db / octave slope set at around 50hz so still have a little output at what amounts to the lowest extension of the speaker. 12db down at 25hz PLUS the natural roll-off of the driver? I wonder about 'overlap' between the sub running high and the mains running low. I know in my system that this causes image / stage problems. when I low cut the mains at about 50hz and HIGH cut the sub even lower, no such problems. Depending on the space, it is not necesssarily true that the best place for the sub is near a certain speaker. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 19:47:49 GMT -5
Because such subs are desirably located near enough another loud speaker which extends higher? For example LFE sub(s) located near center channel should provide frequencies the center isn't capable while being located near enough that those frequencies are not perceived as detached. Remember, what may sound good in high fidelity audio as in instrumental replication may not be enough for cinema. For example, a Hifi audio system may replicate realistic volumes instrumental percussions such as drums outstandingly but be lacking when it comes to an action film where heavy artillery - a howitzer firing, 120mm round from an AC-130 Spectre "Spooky" gunship overhead in ground pounding support, or a simple lobbed grenade detonating nearby into a foxhole during lifelike cinema experience to put you there in the middle of the scene. When that technical mounted uptop a vehicle w/ sternum punching .50 cal pulls up behind you and starts laying down cover fire there's a harmonious crossfire of low to mid bass frequency that can't be captured unless all those LFE subs around the listener are capable of producing the lifelike volumes and frequency a .50 cal is capable. Be back, gotta run towards the chopper in Black Hawk Down where 8hz is felt from the whirling blades above. Or what's dat one scene in BHD when one guys asks the other is that M249 SAW loud? When it goes off he lost his hearing!!! Some systems can replicate the chest pounding blitz........ Just as real percussion and stringed instruments are the standard bearer for replication so are other non musical instruments in cinema: www.avosound.com/en/sound-effects/search/gun/gun-machine-gun-m249/My sub will cause stuff on the walls to rattle. The Dino walking in first Jurassic Park can be felt. And you can feel the low pedal tone from SaintSaens Symphony #3 'With Organ'.....But not at a high enough amplitude to cause structural problems with my house! That is the musical exception. The other sort-of exception is the TELARC recording of Malcom Prager playing Chopin using a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand. Chest Thumping with the additional octave provided by 97 keys....not 88..... You are perhaps talking OVERTONES of fundamental frequencies. That's why I think image and stage is better With a Sub. My sub with 24db / octave high cut filter is DONE at about 80hz to 90hz. My mains use a 12db / octave slope set at around 50hz so still have a little output at what amounts to the lowest extension of the speaker. 12db down at 25hz PLUS the natural roll-off of the driver? I wonder about 'overlap' between the sub running high and the mains running low. I know in my system that this causes image / stage problems. when I low cut the mains at about 50hz and HIGH cut the sub even lower, no such problems. Depending on the space, it is not necesssarily true that the best place for the sub is near a certain speaker. "Even though nobody actually knows how that stuff sounds?" Brother, you began w/ a false premise  I believe and feel free to correct me if wrong but you're emphasizing the accuracy of scaled down replication. And appears you're "likening" effects rather than exact replication? Does an IMAX seat shaker provide the same overall experience as actual sources at such frequency that resonates through you? I have no problem w/ what you stated. Just saying, some like true to life replication which often includes realistic volumes. Perhaps, hifi isn't a term that properly describes real to life cinema? I mean I could listen to a mini system on a mini viewer and think that machine gun fire sounds cute with tits and tats. Where you stated imaginative cinema like Jurassic Park is left to anyone's source of imagination. That is, the source at that point is left to the sound engineers. Lest they hire Hans Zimmerman to orchestrate the sounds of a Dinosaur walking then we now know there're instruments replicating or sound synthesizers the dinosaurs motion etc. Such are how a Dinosaur sounds while walking, but not really However, just a few weeks ago on January 6th and the following Monday the 11th I stood from a balcony overlooking stringed instruments surrounded by marble in halls at my Capitol. Truly an experience to hear. While above on the balcony the sound I heard is the reference for my system to replicate when the event was recorded. Not someone else like an engineer or other speaker manufactures. Couldn't care less what they tell me. slap mah' phro? Bombastic Attachments:
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Post by leonski on Jan 29, 2021 22:03:18 GMT -5
Been around Jets.....Take off of an F4 simply CAN'T be replicated in a house. Or a real pipe organ, for that matter.
Go to an airshow sometime. Bring hearing protection. Tell me your system can do THAT.
It's not a 'fa;se premise'. A series of 'good systems' will vary in reporoduction of these effects. A lot or a little, doesnt' matter much.
These effects are engineered for effect, contain overtones and sub harmonics for that 'feel'.
But I will agree....Hi Fi is not the term to describe modern effects laden cinema. But will differ since it has little to do with 'real to life'.....
Listening to a mini system....or say a nice pair of bookshelf monitors? And Enjoying? Not a problem. I think most of the cinema 'effects' guys are
in a different category than people who watch the movie. I'm not expressing it well, but you have 2 major divisions here.
Those who buy media and movies and listen to the gear
Those who buy gear to listen to the music or movie.......
It is to your credit that you take time to listen to real music in a real space. The live experience is nearly impossible to duplicate.
Sure....people THINK they like 'true to life replication' but few have any idea what that actually Sounds like. A good system should produce the
effect desired by the sound people.
Here's one to try.....When I was a kid, the family drove up to I think it was Titusville....Across from Cape Canaveral. We spent the nite on the sand (awful) than witnessed the launch of a Saturn V / early Apollo.
This was the most visceral experience ever. The atmosphere was incapable of transmitting the energy. It came to you across miles of water as a series of loud pops and the ground shook. I was either a freshman
or sophmore in HS at the time.
If you ever get the chance? Go watch a large rocket take off.
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Post by megash0n on Jan 29, 2021 22:47:55 GMT -5
Starting this Friday off in a tough way. Confirmed that somehow while running Dirac on my RMC-1L, I have blown out two of my Axiom QS-8 speakers (all other speakers are fine including 2 more of the 4 QS-8βs I have). All speakers had test tones during the level set process but, stopped in the sweep process due to clipping and were dead afterwards Itβs odd that all the drivers in both units are dead and reached out to Axiom to see if they are fused internally Probably ARE fused internally. Β MIght be called a Voice Coil...... Or, few people listen to the fact the the sweeps play way louder than the volume calibration screen... So.. Things happen. |
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Post by jagman on Jan 29, 2021 22:59:34 GMT -5
marcl bump. BTW, the bass definitely sounds neutered. It's cleaner and the midrange and imaging is significantly improved but movies lose their impact and it's quite noticeable. Wow! How on earth did you get your sub to measure 15-20db (and more) higher than the rest of the speakers? If you are customed to the huge bass with this setup I can imagine you think correct leveled bass sound neutered. Acouple of things, why do you use different curves for your speakers? Itβs really not recommended. Also you will miss the crossover point this way. If you like bass, set your Dirac curve with Harman 10db, for all your speakers. Then cross them so your sub deals with most of the <80hz sound. Your sub seems to measure high or leveled up to about 130-150hz, then drops at 200hz and goes up again. Use Harman 10db and steer the drop after about 130-140hz. This my recommendation. I agree with Marcl that it seems to drop too early. But it can be the quite the drop you have at 200hz. I have four 18" drivers in an IB alignment. I also have a 12" driver behind each of the second row seats (the center seat is the MLP). I also have two 12" drivers under each of the theater seats in a HoverBOSS alignment. All of the subs are powered by SpeakerPower amps (they are a well regarded sub amp manufacturer). Since all of the subs are in sealed enclosures and are powered with good amps that don't overpower them, the lower frequencies have very low distortion. Thst makes it very easy to turn them up without it feeling bloated or boomy... and that's before DIRAC. My HT is in an open loft, so there is very little room gain and no pressurization in the room (hence the overkill on subs). On a side note, I set up the target curve as a house curve so the bass gets progressively hotter as the frequency gets lower. Your point on the having all speakers pegged to the same Harmon curve is well taken. I'll try that out. That makes a lot of sense! I attached a couple pics for reference. In the first pic you can see the IB subs at the front as well as the nearfield 12" subs. The second photo shows how the HT is in an open loft. The third shows the two 12" drivers under one of the theater seats (they are great for the tactile response that doesn't build in the room).    Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 0:19:08 GMT -5
Wow! How on earth did you get your sub to measure 15-20db (and more) higher than the rest of the speakers? If you are customed to the huge bass with this setup I can imagine you think correct leveled bass sound neutered. Acouple of things, why do you use different curves for your speakers? Itβs really not recommended. Also you will miss the crossover point this way. If you like bass, set your Dirac curve with Harman 10db, for all your speakers. Then cross them so your sub deals with most of the <80hz sound. Your sub seems to measure high or leveled up to about 130-150hz, then drops at 200hz and goes up again. Use Harman 10db and steer the drop after about 130-140hz. This my recommendation. I agree with Marcl that it seems to drop too early. But it can be the quite the drop you have at 200hz. I have four 18" drivers in an IB alignment. I also have a 12" driver behind each of the second row seats (the center seat is the MLP). I also have two 12" drivers under each of the theater seats in a HoverBOSS alignment. All of the subs are powered by SpeakerPower amps (they are a well regarded sub amp manufacturer). Since all of the subs are in sealed enclosures and are powered with good amps that don't overpower them, the lower frequencies have very low distortion. Thst makes it very easy to turn them up without it feeling bloated or boomy... and that's before DIRAC. My HT is in an open loft, so there is very little room gain and no pressurization in the room (hence the overkill on subs). On a side note, I set up the target curve as a house curve so the bass gets progressively hotter as the frequency gets lower. Your point on the having all speakers pegged to the same Harmon curve is well taken. I'll try that out. That makes a lot of sense! I attached a couple pics for reference. In the first pic you can see the IB subs at the front as well as the nearfield 12" subs. The second photo shows how the HT is in an open loft. The third shows the two 12" drivers under one of the theater seats (they are great for the tactile response that doesn't build in the room). About the nicest personal cinema I've seen pictures of on this board! |
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Post by leonski on Jan 30, 2021 1:49:38 GMT -5
How large is the space? Is the screen supposed to be transparent to sound? How many individual circuits feed your setup? What kind of projector? I Like the modern looking ceiling fan. I've got a Hunter fan in my LR which is also a modern style and I just rebuilt the remote. Neat looking room. One MINOR point. People talk about 'room pressurization' as if it were real. Amount of air in room doesnt' change, so you dont' have any pressure changes. BUT you certainly DO feel the sound waves. If you DO want to actually pressureize your room AND get response to 4hz or 5hz? Experiment with a ROTARY Subwofer. Check out the link. You'lll mount it between rooms so you actually CAN pressurize a room. And I suspect cause epileptic siezures in those so prone. www.youtube.com/watch?v=poo6zCFXtKMI don't know if this device is at all musical, but may provide the Last Word in LF augmentation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 2:13:25 GMT -5
How large is the space? Is the screen supposed to be transparent to sound? How many individual circuits feed your setup? What kind of projector? I Like the modern looking ceiling fan. I've got a Hunter fan in my LR which is also a modern style and I just rebuilt the remote. Neat looking room. One MINOR point. People talk about 'room pressurization' as if it were real. Amount of air in room doesnt' change, so you dont' have any pressure changes. BUT you certainly DO feel the sound waves. If you DO want to actually pressureize your room AND get response to 4hz or 5hz? Experiment with a ROTARY Subwofer. Check out the link. You'lll mount it between rooms so you actually CAN pressurize a room. And I suspect cause epileptic siezures in those so prone. www.youtube.com/watch?v=poo6zCFXtKMI don't know if this device is at all musical, but may provide the Last Word in LF augmentation. SPL, what does that stand for? Define room pressurization? Tell me there's no pressurization in a room as such as an example and I'll prove any claims were hyperbole w/ an SPL meter in hand! |
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Post by motogp34 on Jan 30, 2021 10:18:08 GMT -5
I've always heard set your speakers to small, reasons why you would set to large ?
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Post by motogp34 on Jan 30, 2021 13:28:44 GMT -5
Response from Dirac:
Setting fronts to Large is a possibility if their low-frequency response is good, but they will be corrected by themselves so that their interaction with the subwoofer is unpredictable... it's for you to judge.
As far as choosing among Harman curves is concerned, that depends on your listening volume... and, why not, your preferences.
Again, it's for you to judge
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Post by marcl on Jan 30, 2021 16:56:19 GMT -5
Response from Dirac: Setting fronts to Large is a possibility if their low-frequency response is good, but they will be corrected by themselves so that their interaction with the subwoofer is unpredictable... it's for you to judge. As far as choosing among Harman curves is concerned, that depends on your listening volume... and, why not, your preferences. Again, it's for you to judge Interesting. What they're saying is always true of speakers set to small and irrelevant to speakers set to large. Dirac always corrects speakers individually without respect to how they interact. This is even true with multiple subwoofers. Interaction with subs is always unpredictable, as is interaction among multiple subs (unless you have Dirac Live Bass Control ... we should live so long!). So here's a comprehensive opinion from one old guy ... First, I start with the premise that the quality of bass from a large speaker will generally be better than that of a sub in the same frequency range. So I always try to use all of the range of a speaker. Many disagree with this. Second, do your large speakers go down to at least 30Hz and can they reproduce the dynamics you need for the music and movies you listen to at that frequency? If the answer is yes you could make an argument to leave them set to large. If they only go down to 40 or 50Hz, and/or can't reproduce the dynamics you need for what you listen to, then set them to small and cross over to subwoofer(s). My opinion is to cross speakers as low as possible to get the frequency range and dynamics that you need. So in some cases you might set your fronts to cross at 40Hz, and your center and surrounds to cross at 80Hz. |
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Post by motogp34 on Jan 30, 2021 17:09:06 GMT -5
Response from Dirac: Setting fronts to Large is a possibility if their low-frequency response is good, but they will be corrected by themselves so that their interaction with the subwoofer is unpredictable... it's for you to judge. As far as choosing among Harman curves is concerned, that depends on your listening volume... and, why not, your preferences. Again, it's for you to judge Interesting. What they're saying is always true of speakers set to small and irrelevant to speakers set to large. Dirac always corrects speakers individually without respect to how they interact. This is even true with multiple subwoofers. Interaction with subs is always unpredictable, as is interaction among multiple subs (unless you have Dirac Live Bass Control ... we should live so long!). So here's a comprehensive opinion from one old guy ... First, I start with the premise that the quality of bass from a large speaker will generally be better than that of a sub in the same frequency range. So I always try to use all of the range of a speaker. Many disagree with this. Second, do your large speakers go down to at least 30Hz and can they reproduce the dynamics you need for the music and movies you listen to at that frequency? If the answer is yes you could make an argument to leave them set to large. If they only go down to 40 or 50Hz, and/or can't reproduce the dynamics you need for what you listen to, then set them to small and cross over to subwoofer(s). My opinion is to cross speakers as low as possible to get the frequency range and dynamics that you need. So in some cases you might set your fronts to cross at 40Hz, and your center and surrounds to cross at 80Hz. Focal Aria 936 Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 39Hz - 28kHz Low frequency point - 6 dB 32Hz Sensitivity (2.83V / 1m) 92dB Nominal impedance 8Ξ© Minimum impedance 2.8Ξ© Recommended amplifier power 40 - 300W Crossover frequency 260Hz / 3100Hz My fronts, i'm assuming set to small ? |
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Post by marcl on Jan 30, 2021 17:19:29 GMT -5
Interesting. What they're saying is always true of speakers set to small and irrelevant to speakers set to large. Dirac always corrects speakers individually without respect to how they interact. This is even true with multiple subwoofers. Interaction with subs is always unpredictable, as is interaction among multiple subs (unless you have Dirac Live Bass Control ... we should live so long!). So here's a comprehensive opinion from one old guy ... First, I start with the premise that the quality of bass from a large speaker will generally be better than that of a sub in the same frequency range. So I always try to use all of the range of a speaker. Many disagree with this. Second, do your large speakers go down to at least 30Hz and can they reproduce the dynamics you need for the music and movies you listen to at that frequency? If the answer is yes you could make an argument to leave them set to large. If they only go down to 40 or 50Hz, and/or can't reproduce the dynamics you need for what you listen to, then set them to small and cross over to subwoofer(s). My opinion is to cross speakers as low as possible to get the frequency range and dynamics that you need. So in some cases you might set your fronts to cross at 40Hz, and your center and surrounds to cross at 80Hz. Focal Aria 936 Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 39Hz - 28kHz Low frequency point - 6 dB 32Hz Sensitivity (2.83V / 1m) 92dB Nominal impedance 8Ξ© Minimum impedance 2.8Ξ© Recommended amplifier power 40 - 300W Crossover frequency 260Hz / 3100Hz My fronts, i'm assuming set to small ?Yes but .... use the Dirac measurement as a guide for all your speakers. Speaker nominal specs don't take the room into account. Look at the measured value in Dirac to decide on the useable low end of the speaker as it plays in your room. What you'll probably also see is at least two (or more) big peaks and dips in the response from 30 to 200Hz. |
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Post by motogp34 on Jan 30, 2021 17:24:31 GMT -5
Focal Aria 936 Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 39Hz - 28kHz Low frequency point - 6 dB 32Hz Sensitivity (2.83V / 1m) 92dB Nominal impedance 8Ξ© Minimum impedance 2.8Ξ© Recommended amplifier power 40 - 300W Crossover frequency 260Hz / 3100Hz My fronts, i'm assuming set to small ?Yes but .... use the Dirac measurement as a guide for all your speakers. Speaker nominal specs don't take the room into account. Look at the measured value in Dirac to decide on the useable low end of the speaker as it plays in your room. What you'll probably also see is at least two (or more) big peaks and dips in the response from 30 to 200Hz. Attachments:
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Post by marcl on Jan 30, 2021 17:34:02 GMT -5
Yes but .... use the Dirac measurement as a guide for all your speakers. Speaker nominal specs don't take the room into account. Look at the measured value in Dirac to decide on the useable low end of the speaker as it plays in your room. What you'll probably also see is at least two (or more) big peaks and dips in the response from 30 to 200Hz. I would say yes, small. And try crossover at 40 or 50Hz 24db/octave |
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Post by motogp34 on Jan 30, 2021 18:57:05 GMT -5
I would say yes, small.Β And try crossover at 40 or 50Hz 24db/octave 40/50 on fronts only, everything else 80 ? |
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Post by marcl on Jan 30, 2021 21:14:48 GMT -5
I would say yes, small. And try crossover at 40 or 50Hz 24db/octave 40/50 on fronts only, everything else 80 ? Looking at the response of the fronts I say 40-50. Take a look at the measurements of the other speakers and see where they roll off. Likely 80, but might have to be 100. You have to look at the measurements. |
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