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Post by leonski on Jan 31, 2021 2:53:54 GMT -5
Isn't the goal to get the sub / main speakers to sum FLAT (or close) thru the passband? So as the sub is decreasing, the mains are Increasing. To that end, I don't think I'd cross the mains to the sub at the same frequency. Hi Cut the sub at a lower frequency and the the mains are are Hi Passed at a higher frequeny.
And as a general rule, I'd try to avoid running the mains as low as they are capable of. Cut out as much as 1 octave of their response, and let the sub do it.....
How much information below....say 200hz do any of the setups allow to speaker which are NOT front L/R or Center...?
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Post by marcl on Jan 31, 2021 5:13:09 GMT -5
Isn't the goal to get the sub / main speakers to sum FLAT (or close) thru the passband? So as the sub is decreasing, the mains are Increasing. To that end, I don't think I'd cross the mains to the sub at the same frequency. Hi Cut the sub at a lower frequency and the the mains are are Hi Passed at a higher frequeny. And as a general rule, I'd try to avoid running the mains as low as they are capable of. Cut out as much as 1 octave of their response, and let the sub do it..... How much information below....say 200hz do any of the setups allow to speaker which are NOT front L/R or Center...? A couple things .... Behavior of the filters at the crossover point depends on the type of filter used. There are interactions at the overlap that, for the right combination of filters, result in flat response at the crossover point. And, our processors don't give us the option to low pass the sub at one frequency and high pass the mains at another frequency, nor do they let us select different slopes for each speaker. Note in my response that you have to evaluate the useable low limit of your speakers with respect to amplitude response and dynamics. A cone speaker might be fine for banging metal music down to its limit, but a planar dipole probably won't. But the planar dipole might be better for classical low strings and piano down to its limit, than the cone speaker. It depends. That's why I say start at 40Hz for a large speaker and dink it up 10Hz at a time and listen. My Magnepans sound fine crossed at 40 or 50, but at 60 or 80 they sound bloated and lack clarity in the low end ... for what I listen to. And, they are not good for LFE due to high dynamic range, even though they can reproduce the frequencies down to 40Hz. As for content below 200Hz ..... remember middle C on a piano is 261; low C on a cello is 60; low E on a bass is 40. The Dolby spec for surrounds and tops goes down to 40Hz. |
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Post by motogp34 on Jan 31, 2021 11:00:56 GMT -5
IT guy at emotiva said to get a floor noise of -35 by adjusting the mic volume to get to that point without any speaker sound or noise in the room. Then adjust the master volume to get the lowest speaker in the room to -23. Then run all speaker checks to -23 using the sliders. feedback ? "match the "natural" response of your woofer with the target curve. and add +2 or 4dB in the manual "levels" menu." "addendum... target "floor noise" (Mic Gain) -35" Attachments:
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Post by marcl on Jan 31, 2021 11:28:06 GMT -5
IT guy at emotiva said to get a floor noise of -35 by adjusting the mic volume to get to that point without any speaker sound or noise in the room. Then adjust the master volume to get the lowest speaker in the room to -23. Then run all speaker checks to -23 using the sliders. feedback ? "match the "natural" response of your woofer with the target curve. and add +2 or 4dB in the manual "levels" menu." "addendum... target "floor noise" (Mic Gain) -35" Forgive me, but that makes absolutely no sense. #1 you don't know the "natural response" of the woofer because you haven't measured it in an anechoic chamber. #2 Dirac is digital room correction software whose purpose is to correct resonances in the room, which is what you are seeing in those measured peaks and dips. But that said .... if you ignore that and imagine a flat starting point ... if you like the sound +2 or +4, then that's the goal, to enjoy the music the way you like it.  |
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Post by marcl on Feb 1, 2021 11:19:16 GMT -5
Dirac support says they're working on a fix for the 3.0.13 crashes that we've been seeing. Hang in there!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 1, 2021 13:52:50 GMT -5
Dirac support says they're working on a fix for the 3.0.13 crashes that we've been seeing. Hang in there! I am more than happy to wait for the fix. I'm sticking on 11 for now, and I plan to re-run Dirac sometime this week now that my sub is back. I don't need to be messing with crashes, though. Mark |
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Post by rhale64 on Feb 1, 2021 14:49:42 GMT -5
Good! I was beginning to wonder if this was just us G3 users? Or if everyone was having these same problems?
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Post by marcl on Feb 1, 2021 14:50:46 GMT -5
Pull the Curtains in from the left and right. Dirac will not apply correction left of the left curtain, or right of the right curtain. View AttachmentI like the idea of a limited LF window. People can't SEE LF 'waves' and may have trouble visualizing just how LONG a 30hz wave actually IS. Cerainly over 30feet.......with lower frequencies even longer. It is easy to put your mic in a peak or null and 'tilt' the measure. Or worse yet? Get a peak from a bounce where a room dimension, height width OR length is an even multiple of such wavelength..... Than it gets weird. www.mcsquared.com/modecalc.htmThis is a decent room mode calculator and VISUAL. It also has graphics explaining the different 'modes' of bounce. I DO NOT want to discourage anyone. Modern electronics and such have made DIRAC and other systems viable. But you have to take into account a few other things when going for the lowest extension. The low E on a bass is about 40Hz with a 28ft wavelength. If you move your head or a mic a foot or two it will make little difference. But middle C on a piano is 261 Hz with a 4ft 4in wavelength. Move your head a foot and it is a big deal. Dirac takes all of this into consideration with the multiple measurements to determine what to correct and what not to correct. And here's another interesting thing. I happen to have some drums, so I hit them in my room and recorded the peaks. My room has a measured huge peak resonance at 40Hz and a deep dip at 60Hz. The two bass drum hits reflect these room resonances very clearly.  |
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Post by p4t on Feb 2, 2021 4:39:00 GMT -5
Hi. I have a questions. I use 4db harman curve for dirac. And then add another 4db manually on subwoofer volume level. Or I should use 8Db harman curve and just leave it like that without adding any subwoofer volume level. I did try both of these and I feel using 4db harman curve and add another 4db on subwoofer volume level is sound better than just using 8db harman curve. Just wondering if what I did is correct. Thanks.
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Post by marcl on Feb 2, 2021 8:54:31 GMT -5
Hi. I have a questions. I use 4db harman curve for dirac. And then add another 4db manually on subwoofer volume level. Or I should use 8Db harman curve and just leave it like that without adding any subwoofer volume level. I did try both of these and I feel using 4db harman curve and add another 4db on subwoofer volume level is sound better than just using 8db harman curve. Just wondering if what I did is correct. Thanks. Whatever makes you happy But keep in mind what 8db of bass boost will do when it gets into your amp and speakers. Can you hear the distortion? Will you cook your woofer? Maybe, maybe not. You decide. But really it depends on your room's response as measured in Dirac. If Dirac shows a booming peak in the bass and you choose not to correct all of it, then that's what you'll hear and no actual boost will be applied. But if the response is flatter, or you have a deep dip in the bass, Dirac will try to lift the response and it may be a problem. Depending on what you see, doing the curve in Dirac may be the better answer. |
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Post by Lsc on Feb 2, 2021 9:58:15 GMT -5
Hi. I have a questions. I use 4db harman curve for dirac. And then add another 4db manually on subwoofer volume level. Or I should use 8Db harman curve and just leave it like that without adding any subwoofer volume level. I did try both of these and I feel using 4db harman curve and add another 4db on subwoofer volume level is sound better than just using 8db harman curve. Just wondering if what I did is correct. Thanks. Whatever makes you happy But keep in mind what 8db of bass boost will do when it gets into your amp and speakers. Can you hear the distortion? Will you cook your woofer? Maybe, maybe not. You decide. But really it depends on your room's response as measured in Dirac. If Dirac shows a booming peak in the bass and you choose not to correct all of it, then that's what you'll hear and no actual boost will be applied. But if the response is flatter, or you have a deep dip in the bass, Dirac will try to lift the response and it may be a problem. Depending on what you see, doing the curve in Dirac may be the better answer. This is a great point. Dirac shows that I have a 8-10 dB boost at 25 Hz for my main speakers that’s rated -3 dB @ 44 Hz. I did not want to take this away so I did the Harmon 8 dB curve for my main speakers. I did a 4 dB curve for my sub for the same reason. This worked well for me. |
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richb
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Post by richb on Feb 2, 2021 9:58:18 GMT -5
But if the response is flatter, or you have a deep dip in the bass, Dirac will try to lift the response and it may be a problem. Depending on what you see, doing the curve in Dirac may be the better answer. It is possible to address a dip with changes in phase, so it may not require that much boost. Unfortunately, Dirac does not report the boosts for users to make informed decisions. - Rich |
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Post by Priapulus on Feb 2, 2021 10:23:36 GMT -5
The low E on a bass is about 40Hz with a 28ft wavelength. If you move your head or a mic a foot or two it will make little difference. But middle C on a piano is 261 Hz with a 4ft 4in wavelength. Move your head a foot and it is a big deal. I help tonally finish new pipe organs (make individual pipes louder/softer so they match). 16' bass pedal pipes (+30 hz) are very sensitive to listener location, and sliding from one end of the console bench to the other end can made a dramatic difference in loudness. It is standard practice for the tonal finisher to walk around the sanctuary and average the loudness in his head, before making bass loudness decisions. But 8' pipes (+60 Hz) and smaller (higher pitch) are seldom location sensitive. Sometimes, while listening at the console, the seated finisher will sway side to side or wave their head around, to sample the sound. You sometimes see blind people swaying their heads around, trying to gain spatial aural information of their environs. Bear in mind that with bass pedal pipes, they are mostly fundamental, but 8' and higher are usually brighter toned with more harmonics. Also, a church is a much larger space than a living room. You never do tonal finishing listening in the organ chamber (room with the pipes, about the size of a living room), because the standing waves make nonsense of what you hear. Sincerely /b |
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Post by p4t on Feb 2, 2021 12:06:00 GMT -5
Hi. I have a questions. I use 4db harman curve for dirac. And then add another 4db manually on subwoofer volume level. Or I should use 8Db harman curve and just leave it like that without adding any subwoofer volume level. I did try both of these and I feel using 4db harman curve and add another 4db on subwoofer volume level is sound better than just using 8db harman curve. Just wondering if what I did is correct. Thanks. Whatever makes you happy But keep in mind what 8db of bass boost will do when it gets into your amp and speakers. Can you hear the distortion? Will you cook your woofer? Maybe, maybe not. You decide. But really it depends on your room's response as measured in Dirac. If Dirac shows a booming peak in the bass and you choose not to correct all of it, then that's what you'll hear and no actual boost will be applied. But if the response is flatter, or you have a deep dip in the bass, Dirac will try to lift the response and it may be a problem. Depending on what you see, doing the curve in Dirac may be the better answer. I am curious. If I have 4db harman curve for all my speakers included my subwoofer. And Dirac corrected the freq res up to 500hz. after that add another 4db using subwoofer volume level on xmc-2, does the shape of the curve for my subwoofer still the same as dirac corrected (just 4db louder)? Or the curve will be different ( will have peak and dips)? Thanks. |
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Post by marcl on Feb 2, 2021 12:46:08 GMT -5
The low E on a bass is about 40Hz with a 28ft wavelength. If you move your head or a mic a foot or two it will make little difference. But middle C on a piano is 261 Hz with a 4ft 4in wavelength. Move your head a foot and it is a big deal. I help tonally finish new pipe organs (make individual pipes louder/softer so they match). 16' bass pedal pipes (+30 hz) are very sensitive to listener location, and sliding from one end of the console bench to the other end can made a dramatic difference in loudness. It is standard practice for the tonal finisher to walk around the sanctuary and average the loudness in his head, before making bass loudness decisions. But 8' pipes (+60 Hz) and smaller (higher pitch) are seldom location sensitive. Sometimes, while listening at the console, the seated finisher will sway side to side or wave their head around, to sample the sound. You sometimes see blind people swaying their heads around, trying to gain spatial aural information of their environs. Bear in mind that with bass pedal pipes, they are mostly fundamental, but 8' and higher are usually brighter toned with more harmonics. Also, a church is a much larger space than a living room. You never do tonal finishing listening in the organ chamber (room with the pipes, about the size of a living room), because the standing waves make nonsense of what you hear. Sincerely /b Very interesting! Great information. But yeah the acoustic environments are so different. You measure reverberation times in a church with a calendar But even with the 70ft wavelength of the 32' pedal the church will have dimensions so much bigger than that, modal resonances will not be the same as in a typical listening room with dimensions <30ft. In my 13x27ft room I see some variations across 3-4 feet. The key thing is, Dirac looks to correct the common issues across the most measurements ... and it tries to ignore the one-off peaks and dips that happen in a couple measurements but not others. Our brains are pretty good - in the mid to higher frequencies - at smoothing those out. |
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Post by rovinggecko on Feb 2, 2021 16:36:24 GMT -5
The dirac live application is not very intuitive. How do I move the curve down as a whole? I don;t like Dirac doing any amplification, so want to move the curve down a bit so there are no amplification areas, but can only seem to do that by moving all the points one by one. Hints?
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Post by marcl on Feb 2, 2021 17:08:43 GMT -5
The dirac live application is not very intuitive. How do I move the curve down as a whole? I don;t like Dirac doing any amplification, so want to move the curve down a bit so there are no amplification areas, but can only seem to do that by moving all the points one by one. Hints? Add a few control points by right clicking and Add Point. Then drag the curve down while watching the display for the frequency and level. If you have a 3db dip in response, you could pull all the points down to -3db, for example. But keep in mind that unless you pull down the curves for all the speakers, you may have to compensate with adjusting Levels in the preset for a given speaker. I've done this. Works fine. Be sure to save your target curves for each speaker so you don't have to recreate them each time. UI does have some annoying deficiencies, like ... why can't I click a button and say "make all these Groups, Target Curves and Curtain positions the Default" .... no, instead I have to drag my rear tops and rear surrounds to their own Groups, load 7 separate Target Curves, and drag 14 Curtains ... EVERY TIME I do a calibration. |
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Post by p4t on Feb 3, 2021 3:52:56 GMT -5
I am thinking to get 2 more subwoofer. Currently I am using 2 subwoofer. Mostly for movies. Right now I have 2 options. I am using mini dsp. Just for example input 1 is sub 1 and 2 and input 2 is for subwoofer 3 and 4. And all 4 subwoofers already sync together using minidsp. My question is:
Option 1. If I connected center sub to minidsp input 1 and set as LFE and right sub mono to input 2 minidsp, does the bass will still sync, because LFE is no bass management.
Option 2 is: directly (without minidsp) connected using hi level input sub 3 to front left and sub 4 to front right, the idea is make my front speaker full range and set the front speaker as large, and center sub connected to input 1 minidsp and set as LFE. Is this ok? Cause I read many forums saying that if you set your front speakers as large it will messed up the low freq.
Any idea which one is better? Thank you.
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Post by marcl on Feb 3, 2021 8:41:50 GMT -5
I am thinking to get 2 more subwoofer. Currently I am using 2 subwoofer. Mostly for movies. Right now I have 2 options. I am using mini dsp. Just for example input 1 is sub 1 and 2 and input 2 is for subwoofer 3 and 4. And all 4 subwoofers already sync together using minidsp. My question is: Option 1. If I connected center sub to minidsp input 1 and set as LFE and right sub mono to input 2 minidsp, does the bass will still sync, because LFE is no bass management. Option 2 is: directly (without minidsp) connected using hi level input sub 3 to front left and sub 4 to front right, the idea is make my front speaker full range and set the front speaker as large, and center sub connected to input 1 minidsp and set as LFE. Is this ok? Cause I read many forums saying that if you set your front speakers as large it will messed up the low freq. Any idea which one is better? Thank you. First, it's best to use the miniDSP for all the subs because it allows you to do time and level alignment in the miniDSP, so that Dirac just has to align the combined virtual sub to the other speakers. As for the question of using Center Sub LFE or not, my opinion is if you are going to send small speaker bass to subs ... then use Center Sub Mono to miniDSP Input 1, align all four subs together in the miniDSP, and place them in the four corners of your room (or as close as you can). The latter bit of advice is per the Harman paper by Welti on placement of multiple subs. Now, to time align the four subs in the miniDSP you would use the Impulse Response measurement in REW. Sweep the four subs from 30-100Hz and read the timing difference from the first (usually smaller) peak in the Impulse Response. Add delay to the slower subs until they align. Also, adjust the output levels of all four subs until their levels are equal. If you go for Option #2 with the intention of sending small speaker bass to large front speakers, this can work really well because the front speaker bass will likely be a better match for your small speakers . Still connect Center Sub LFE to Input 1 on the miniDSP and all four subs to the four outputs. In order to get front speaker deep bass to the subs below their range (i.e. like <40Hz) you can put a Y cable on your L/R front outputs and then combine one side to miniDSP Input #2. In the input PEQ put a 40Hz LPF, then send that bass to the four subs in addition to the LFE.  With this arrangement you get full range fronts with the benefit of all four subs. And Dirac sees the fronts and full range and ensures smooth transition from the subs to the fronts at the crossover. You will find a lot more discussion and other options at ttocs Finding Subwoofers thread emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57730/subwoofer |
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Post by p4t on Feb 4, 2021 4:42:59 GMT -5
I am thinking to get 2 more subwoofer. Currently I am using 2 subwoofer. Mostly for movies. Right now I have 2 options. I am using mini dsp. Just for example input 1 is sub 1 and 2 and input 2 is for subwoofer 3 and 4. And all 4 subwoofers already sync together using minidsp. My question is: Option 1. If I connected center sub to minidsp input 1 and set as LFE and right sub mono to input 2 minidsp, does the bass will still sync, because LFE is no bass management. Option 2 is: directly (without minidsp) connected using hi level input sub 3 to front left and sub 4 to front right, the idea is make my front speaker full range and set the front speaker as large, and center sub connected to input 1 minidsp and set as LFE. Is this ok? Cause I read many forums saying that if you set your front speakers as large it will messed up the low freq. Any idea which one is better? Thank you. First, it's best to use the miniDSP for all the subs because it allows you to do time and level alignment in the miniDSP, so that Dirac just has to align the combined virtual sub to the other speakers. As for the question of using Center Sub LFE or not, my opinion is if you are going to send small speaker bass to subs ... then use Center Sub Mono to miniDSP Input 1, align all four subs together in the miniDSP, and place them in the four corners of your room (or as close as you can). The latter bit of advice is per the Harman paper by Welti on placement of multiple subs. Now, to time align the four subs in the miniDSP you would use the Impulse Response measurement in REW. Sweep the four subs from 30-100Hz and read the timing difference from the first (usually smaller) peak in the Impulse Response. Add delay to the slower subs until they align. Also, adjust the output levels of all four subs until their levels are equal. If you go for Option #2 with the intention of sending small speaker bass to large front speakers, this can work really well because the front speaker bass will likely be a better match for your small speakers . Still connect Center Sub LFE to Input 1 on the miniDSP and all four subs to the four outputs. In order to get front speaker deep bass to the subs below their range (i.e. like <40Hz) you can put a Y cable on your L/R front outputs and then combine one side to miniDSP Input #2. In the input PEQ put a 40Hz LPF, then send that bass to the four subs in addition to the LFE. View AttachmentWith this arrangement you get full range fronts with the benefit of all four subs. And Dirac sees the fronts and full range and ensures smooth transition from the subs to the fronts at the crossover. You will find a lot more discussion and other options at ttocs Finding Subwoofers thread emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57730/subwooferHow do you split the front left and right xlr ( balanced) output to rca (unbalanced)? The minidsp input using rca (unbalaced) connection. |
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