ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 18, 2021 17:49:16 GMT -5
Center, Left and Right are "names" but they have no correlation to channels. It's all mono. So that's the first thing to remember. You have two basic choices with three subwoofers: - You can make them Mono and Dual Mono which sends all the LFE and small speaker bass to all three subs equally as I described. If you do it this way, then you should position your subs for optimal combined response in your room. I recommend information from the Harman paper on multiple subwoofers to determine the best location. www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf
- A second option is to configure the Center Subwoofer as LFE and the other two subwoofers as Dual Mono. If you do it this way, the Center Sub would get ONLY the LFE/.1 content from surround sources. The other two subs would get ONLY the bass from small speakers below their configured crossover points.
Again, the thing to remember is that in either choice the sound is mono, not stereo.
Thanks for the advice. I think I should try option 1. Option 1 is certainly the most expedient. Let me toss something into the ring but first, a question. Do your subs offer a way of daisy chaining? Inputs and outputs so you can connect from one to another? If so, you may want to connect all three to the Center Sub Output as Mono. You stand a better "chance" of getting a good result this way from Dirac seeing all three as a single sub vs each sub being calibrated individually and because Dirac doesn't know how each one will interact with the other two there can be unwanted peaks and dips. If I took 3 identical subs, each connected to a different output on the processor, place them in 3 random locations in the room, calibrate each individually with Dirac, then play a mono signal and measure with REW; Next, combine all 3 subs by connecting to the Center Sub output and calibrate that with Dirac and then measure with REW; Then compare both REW measurements, I'd wager that the 3 subs calibrated together will play a summed mono signal better than when each are calibrated individually. Except for the "random" part, I've done what I just stated above. That's why for me it's a sure thing, not to be confused with the John Cusack movie "The Sure Thing". |
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Post by krauley on Feb 18, 2021 17:55:59 GMT -5
So i havent done any calibrations on my system in months, lots of months until today. I had dirac software just close as it was sending the info over to my xmc-2 twice and never could get the preset i was working with updated. Up until trying to update my processors presets everything went smooth and dirac didnt give me any problems. i sent the levels and did 13 test points with out issue. I dont believe ive used the 3.0.13 version of dirac. Has there been issues with it? ive read backward in this thread but i really just want to know if i should hold off on doing any more calibrations until a newer version is released. Ive had no issues with my xmc-2 and/or dirac up to this point with the exception of my processor freezing up after getting a preset send over from the pc. But upon restarting the unit my preset(s) were updated as they should have been. Ive been waiting on a new firmware and the newest dirac software before i felt the need or desire to do any more calibrations. This was a brand new start from scratch calibration attempt. I have not run Dirac with this Firmware 2.2 yet. But, I gave Dirac 3.0.13 a lot of chances with previous FW and almost every time it crashed upon loading the filters. I'm sticking with Dirac 3.0.11. Late tonight will be my first opportunity with the new FW. Your bad news is actually good news to me. Thanks. Is 3.0.11 the good to dirac version at this point? Looks like i have 3.0.8, 3.0.9, 3.0.11 and of course 3.0.13 saved on my storage drive. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 18, 2021 17:59:23 GMT -5
Is 3.0.11 the good to dirac version at this point? Yes. |
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Post by marcl on Feb 18, 2021 18:20:32 GMT -5
I have not run Dirac with this Firmware 2.2 yet. But, I gave Dirac 3.0.13 a lot of chances with previous FW and almost every time it crashed upon loading the filters. I'm sticking with Dirac 3.0.11. Late tonight will be my first opportunity with the new FW. Your bad news is actually good news to me. Thanks. Is 3.0.11 the good to dirac version at this point? Looks like i have 3.0.8, 3.0.9, 3.0.11 and of course 3.0.13 saved on my storage drive. 3.0.11 is not likely to crash. 3.0.13 is likely to crash some of the time. Based on the release notes of 3.0.13 we would not have a reason to use it ... But, we know that NOBODY puts all the bug fixes in the release notes. So, no harm in using 3.0.11. I'm using 3.0.13 but I check each time and about 50% of the time it crashes on the filter download and I have to do it again. |
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Post by dkaudio on Feb 18, 2021 18:41:16 GMT -5
For some reason, LFE was not working in my setup. I had P1 set to center sub LFE and P2 set to center sub mono. I tried multiple sources that had a .1 channel and they never worked on P1 but P2 the subs were active. I just updated firmware and can see if it is now working (maybe something was hungup). At any rate, if I set P1 fronts to large and subs mono, the subs will still get .1 content, right? Really there is no difference between Large speakers and mono and Large and LFE, right?
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,117
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Post by ttocs on Feb 18, 2021 19:13:56 GMT -5
For some reason, LFE was not working in my setup. I had P1 set to center sub LFE and P2 set to center sub mono. I tried multiple sources that had a .1 channel and they never worked on P1 but P2 the subs were active. I just updated firmware and can see if it is now working (maybe something was hungup). At any rate, if I set P1 fronts to large and subs mono, the subs will still get .1 content, right? Really there is no difference between Large speakers and mono and Large and LFE, right? The Mono subs will get the .1 when the Center Sub is not setup as LFE. And it won't matter in this case if the Fronts are Large or Small. |
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Post by dkaudio on Feb 18, 2021 19:51:50 GMT -5
For some reason, LFE was not working in my setup. I had P1 set to center sub LFE and P2 set to center sub mono. I tried multiple sources that had a .1 channel and they never worked on P1 but P2 the subs were active. I just updated firmware and can see if it is now working (maybe something was hungup). At any rate, if I set P1 fronts to large and subs mono, the subs will still get .1 content, right? Really there is no difference between Large speakers and mono and Large and LFE, right? The Mono subs will get the .1 when the Center Sub is not setup as LFE. And it won't matter in this case if the Fronts are Large or Small. Thanks, I will just set both presets to mono then and not worry about it. P1 Large Mono P2 Small Mono With music I often like fronts large, with movies I often have fronts as small. |
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Post by dkaudio on Feb 18, 2021 20:35:43 GMT -5
Just did a new Dirac run and firmware flash, sounds incredible!
So, is there a way to have fronts large and subs active with analog input? P1 set as fronts large and subs center mono they are not active. Would this require enhanced bass?
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Post by JKCashin on Feb 18, 2021 21:34:32 GMT -5
Your bad news is actually good news to me. Thanks. Is 3.0.11 the good to dirac version at this point? Looks like i have 3.0.8, 3.0.9, 3.0.11 and of course 3.0.13 saved on my storage drive. 3.0.11 is not likely to crash. 3.0.13 is likely to crash some of the time. Based on the release notes of 3.0.13 we would not have a reason to use it ... But, we know that NOBODY puts all the bug fixes in the release notes. So, no harm in using 3.0.11. I'm using 3.0.13 but I check each time and about 50% of the time it crashes on the filter download and I have to do it again. I assume you're talking about Windows? Unfortunately, the Dirac download page for older versions has the link for 3.0.11 linked to 3.0.9 for OS X (Mac) I tweeted to Dirac to fix it... they don't seem to have an email contact! |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,117
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Post by ttocs on Feb 18, 2021 22:15:47 GMT -5
So, is there a way to have fronts large and subs active with analog input? P1 set as fronts large and subs center mono they are not active. Would this require enhanced bass? You "could" use Enhanced Bass, that's up to you. But two channel music, 2.0, that has no LFE (Low-Frequency Effects) content, then Large speakers without Enhanced Bass will not get extra assistance from a subwoofer channel. A ".1" channel would need to be present for LFE to work at all. Setting a subwoofer for Mono only makes that subwoofer a destination for Bass Management to send bass content that is for any speaker designated as Small. |
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Post by hanse1 on Feb 19, 2021 3:17:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice. I think I should try option 1. Option 1 is certainly the most expedient. Let me toss something into the ring but first, a question. Do your subs offer a way of daisy chaining? Inputs and outputs so you can connect from one to another? If so, you may want to connect all three to the Center Sub Output as Mono. You stand a better "chance" of getting a good result this way from Dirac seeing all three as a single sub vs each sub being calibrated individually and because Dirac doesn't know how each one will interact with the other two there can be unwanted peaks and dips. If I took 3 identical subs, each connected to a different output on the processor, place them in 3 random locations in the room, calibrate each individually with Dirac, then play a mono signal and measure with REW; Next, combine all 3 subs by connecting to the Center Sub output and calibrate that with Dirac and then measure with REW; Then compare both REW measurements, I'd wager that the 3 subs calibrated together will play a summed mono signal better than when each are calibrated individually. Except for the "random" part, I've done what I just stated above. That's why for me it's a sure thing, not to be confused with the John Cusack movie "The Sure Thing". The subwoofer connected as the center sub is an Audio Pro B 1.39 (10 "speaker) the other two subwoofers left and right are XTZ 99 W12 (12" speaker) |
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Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2021 8:28:12 GMT -5
Option 1 is certainly the most expedient. Let me toss something into the ring but first, a question. Do your subs offer a way of daisy chaining? Inputs and outputs so you can connect from one to another? If so, you may want to connect all three to the Center Sub Output as Mono. You stand a better "chance" of getting a good result this way from Dirac seeing all three as a single sub vs each sub being calibrated individually and because Dirac doesn't know how each one will interact with the other two there can be unwanted peaks and dips. If I took 3 identical subs, each connected to a different output on the processor, place them in 3 random locations in the room, calibrate each individually with Dirac, then play a mono signal and measure with REW; Next, combine all 3 subs by connecting to the Center Sub output and calibrate that with Dirac and then measure with REW; Then compare both REW measurements, I'd wager that the 3 subs calibrated together will play a summed mono signal better than when each are calibrated individually. Except for the "random" part, I've done what I just stated above. That's why for me it's a sure thing, not to be confused with the John Cusack movie "The Sure Thing". The subwoofer connected as the center sub is an Audio Pro B 1.39 (10 "speaker) the other two subwoofers left and right are XTZ 99 W12 (12" speaker) Positioning will be a big factor in the joined performance of multiple mono subs. And that will depend a lot on your room and seating positions. It might be best to start with just the two 12" subs and place them front and rear of the room center of the walls, or center of the left/right walls, whichever is most convenient. But to get the benefit of the two working together to cancel resonance modes they have to be optimized together with Dirac. A simple way to do this is connect them with a Y cable to the Center Sub output, and configure it Mono. Then Dirac will see the two subs as one, and correct their combined response. This is a quick and simple way to do it. There are other ways. The third sub could be used to even out dips in the response, but this would take a little more complex connection and the ability to measure results. So maybe try the two-sub connection and measure with REW. If there's a problem to be solved we can look at options. ttocs has done a lot of experimenting with multiple subs and different sizes and types. |
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Post by JKCashin on Feb 19, 2021 16:53:03 GMT -5
3.0.11 is not likely to crash. 3.0.13 is likely to crash some of the time. Based on the release notes of 3.0.13 we would not have a reason to use it ... But, we know that NOBODY puts all the bug fixes in the release notes. So, no harm in using 3.0.11. I'm using 3.0.13 but I check each time and about 50% of the time it crashes on the filter download and I have to do it again. I assume you're talking about Windows? Unfortunately, the Dirac download page for older versions has the link for 3.0.11 linked to 3.0.9 for OS X (Mac) I tweeted to Dirac to fix it... they don't seem to have an email contact! Beuller? |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,117
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Post by ttocs on Feb 19, 2021 17:38:46 GMT -5
I assume you're talking about Windows? Unfortunately, the Dirac download page for older versions has the link for 3.0.11 linked to 3.0.9 for OS X (Mac) I tweeted to Dirac to fix it... they don't seem to have an email contact! Beuller? You need to login to www.dirac.com and submit a Support Ticket to get a response from them. |
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Post by hanse1 on Feb 20, 2021 5:44:49 GMT -5
The subwoofer connected as the center sub is an Audio Pro B 1.39 (10 "speaker) the other two subwoofers left and right are XTZ 99 W12 (12" speaker) Positioning will be a big factor in the joined performance of multiple mono subs. And that will depend a lot on your room and seating positions. It might be best to start with just the two 12" subs and place them front and rear of the room center of the walls, or center of the left/right walls, whichever is most convenient. But to get the benefit of the two working together to cancel resonance modes they have to be optimized together with Dirac. A simple way to do this is connect them with a Y cable to the Center Sub output, and configure it Mono. Then Dirac will see the two subs as one, and correct their combined response. This is a quick and simple way to do it. There are other ways. The third sub could be used to even out dips in the response, but this would take a little more complex connection and the ability to measure results. So maybe try the two-sub connection and measure with REW. If there's a problem to be solved we can look at options. ttocs has done a lot of experimenting with multiple subs and different sizes and types.  Unfortunately, it is very difficult to move around the three subwoofers because you have to take into account other furniture (as well as the wife), wiring and electrical outlets |
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Post by marcl on Feb 20, 2021 7:54:45 GMT -5
Positioning will be a big factor in the joined performance of multiple mono subs. And that will depend a lot on your room and seating positions. It might be best to start with just the two 12" subs and place them front and rear of the room center of the walls, or center of the left/right walls, whichever is most convenient. But to get the benefit of the two working together to cancel resonance modes they have to be optimized together with Dirac. A simple way to do this is connect them with a Y cable to the Center Sub output, and configure it Mono. Then Dirac will see the two subs as one, and correct their combined response. This is a quick and simple way to do it. There are other ways. The third sub could be used to even out dips in the response, but this would take a little more complex connection and the ability to measure results. So maybe try the two-sub connection and measure with REW. If there's a problem to be solved we can look at options. ttocs has done a lot of experimenting with multiple subs and different sizes and types. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to move around the three subwoofers because you have to take into account other furniture (as well as the wife), wiring and electrical outlets This is actually pretty good. If the subs can't be centered on the walls they are still pretty close. It would be best if you could measure the response of each separately then the combination of the two 12's and finally the two 12's plus the 10 and see how it looks ... all without Dirac initially. If you have any opportunity to optimize position slightly before Dirac that's best, then run Dirac and measure the overall response. It helps that the two 12's are nearly equidistant from the listening position. ttocs ... any ideas on the 10" sub location? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 20, 2021 9:04:25 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to move around the three subwoofers because you have to take into account other furniture (as well as the wife), wiring and electrical outlets If at all possible, even if only to try just to check, move the Front Subwoofer to behind the Front Left speaker. Once the sub is moved this makes the 10" sub on the right ok. As shown in the diagram, it would "feel" to me that the bass is coming from the right. I actually tried the reverse of your plan and that's how it felt and sounded to me. marcl has it right. Following his suggestion testing each sub, both 12" subs together, then all three, is exactly what I would do. |
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Post by hanse1 on Feb 20, 2021 9:48:28 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to move around the three subwoofers because you have to take into account other furniture (as well as the wife), wiring and electrical outlets If at all possible, even if only to try just to check, move the Front Subwoofer to behind the Front Left speaker. Once the sub is moved this makes the 10" sub on the right ok. As shown in the diagram, it would "feel" to me that the bass is coming from the right. I actually tried the reverse of your plan and that's how it felt and sounded to me. marcl has it right. Following his suggestion testing each sub, both 12" subs together, then all three, is exactly what I would do. My thought is to move the 10"  subwoofer according to the sketch, which may give the bass sound more" balance "in the room |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,117
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Post by ttocs on Feb 20, 2021 9:54:37 GMT -5
If at all possible, even if only to try just to check, move the Front Subwoofer to behind the Front Left speaker. Once the sub is moved this makes the 10" sub on the right ok. As shown in the diagram, it would "feel" to me that the bass is coming from the right. I actually tried the reverse of your plan and that's how it felt and sounded to me. marcl has it right. Following his suggestion testing each sub, both 12" subs together, then all three, is exactly what I would do. My thought is to move the 10" View Attachmentsubwoofer according to the sketch, which may give the bass sound more" balance "in the room That looks better. May I suggest something? I suggest that the general conversation as it relates to subwoofer, and since it's not directly related to Dirac, be moved to a thread that is all things subwoofer. It's called Finding Subwoofer. |
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