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Post by leonski on Feb 20, 2021 14:54:51 GMT -5
If at all possible, even if only to try just to check, move the Front Subwoofer to behind the Front Left speaker. Once the sub is moved this makes the 10" sub on the right ok. As shown in the diagram, it would "feel" to me that the bass is coming from the right. I actually tried the reverse of your plan and that's how it felt and sounded to me. marcl has it right. Following his suggestion testing each sub, both 12" subs together, then all three, is exactly what I would do. My thought is to move the 10" View Attachmentsubwoofer according to the sketch, which may give the bass sound more" balance "in the room Experiment with sub location, for sure. What is the Height of the room? Good primary dimensions of L / W to start, though. Question? Is anything below about 80hz NOT mono? The LFE channel is mono? I know in music, everything is mixed to mono below a certain frequency. |
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Post by marcl on Feb 20, 2021 15:58:22 GMT -5
My thought is to move the 10" View Attachmentsubwoofer according to the sketch, which may give the bass sound more" balance "in the room Experiment with sub location, for sure. What is the Height of the room? Good primary dimensions of L / W to start, though. Question? Is anything below about 80hz NOT mono? The LFE channel is mono? I know in music, everything is mixed to mono below a certain frequency. LFE can have content up to 120Hz and LFE is always mono. In music, it's not necessarily true that bass is mixed to mono. There's no technical reason to do this for digital recordings. But for vinyl it absolutely had to happen, and still does for new vinyl pressings (even those, ironically enough, that are made from digital master recordings). Specs on how to prep a recording for mastering to vinyl include rolling off frequencies below 30Hz, summing bass to mono below 200Hz, limiting left/right separation overall, and rolling off high frequencies above 16KHz. Below 80Hz, it is said, our brains don't distinguish direction of the source. But placing one or more subs asymmetrically in a room, having LFE content that could be higher than 120Hz, and possibly crossing to small center and surrounds above 80Hz - Atmos tops as high as 200Hz sometimes - we sure could notice at least a "heaviness" coming from the direction of the subs. But once again ... in the digital world there is no technical reason why bass would necessarily be mixed to mono. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 20, 2021 16:07:33 GMT -5
One bad thing for me with v2.2 firmware update is now ARC is acting flaky. Now I Have change inputs a couple of times to get it to sync to get audio. Previously v2.1 ARC synced immediately. Perhaps in future releases Emotiva can provide some sort of selection of ways to sync with ARC. I don't know about Vizio, but with Sony tv's there's a menu option for setting up as if it's the first time so getting ARC working is pretty easy and it shows what settings need attention to do so. On my XMC-2 the only item checked is HDMI CEC Enable. All else is unchecked. In the past if there was any problem getting ARC to work the first time, I would get a stream going on the tv and then I would switch to the ARC input on the XMC-2. |
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 20, 2021 18:39:45 GMT -5
Just did a new Dirac run and firmware flash, sounds incredible! So, is there a way to have fronts large and subs active with analog input? P1 set as fronts large and subs center mono they are not active. Would this require enhanced bass? Yes this requires Enhanced bass to be on. The problem with Enhaced bass is the simple HF crossover Emotiva has. It simply uses your crossover settings from the front small settings. At the lowest 40hz, in increments of 10hz. Probably not low enough and too big steps to get it to play perfectly with your fronts. If Emotiva could have improved the crossover settings Enhanced bass could be a really good feature. It’s like a digital low level ”REL high level” setting of sort.. |
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Post by marcl on Feb 24, 2021 9:41:29 GMT -5
Check your Impulse Response. Dirac uses the MLP measurement to fix the Impulse Response and align timing. If you have some (relatively rare) strange reflections the Impulse Response can get confused. I have associated this with subsequent soundstage and imaging issues. This is not a good Impulse Response. Note the very messy peaks initially, and that big reflection at around 8ms after the first peak. Dirac seems to just make it all worse. I had times when Dirac ignored the proper peak and aligned on the earlier ringing, causing alignment to be off by as much as 2ms.  This is a good Impulse Response. I found the source of the 8ms reflection and everything else calmed down too.  Finally, check all the speaker groups and see that they all align to the same value. With Dirac latency it's usually around 17-19ms. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 24, 2021 13:58:34 GMT -5
Isn't 2ms beneath the human threshold for discerning an impulse as 'different'?
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Post by megash0n on Feb 24, 2021 14:40:21 GMT -5
Isn't 2ms beneath the human threshold for discerning an impulse as 'different'? slow down.. I can't hear you. |
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 24, 2021 16:20:53 GMT -5
Should be self explanatory. But if not, this is to show graphically that the 3 Subwoofer outputs all provide the same Mono Signal when set as Mono or Dual Mono.  View AttachmentThere are so many things wrong with names, displayed stuff and whatever were do one begin? Too bad they don’t seem willing to change for the better either. Have reported a few myself. Why is it called Left/Right Back Surround (almost correct name) on the backside and Rears in the setup? Whoever came up with that btw? No other manufacturer call them Rears. The native/straight sound mode Surround. What kind name is that for a no upmixing multi channel sound mode? It could be anything really. Confusing also as Dolby Surround exists. The new feature DTS Direct. This actually the default DTS decoding sound mode for all DTS sources except DTS:X on other prepro’s and AVR’s. Then why is this an option in Preferences? Also why is upmixing the default sound modes? Native sound should always be first choice. When you play analog sources Emotiva status says 48khz 24bit.. Why not just Analog? There are also some strange places for some settings.. And some hidden ones which it seems you should simply know about?! Totally unlogical, like Enhanced bass. To set the crossover/HF setting for Enhanced bass you need to first set the fronts to small and choose a crossover. Then this crossover will be used by EB when you set the fronts to large and turn on Enhanced bass. Logical eh? These are just a few from the top of my head. Could probably go on quite a while if I really searched for stuff. Emotiva does it their way and many times very different from the others. |
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Post by marcl on Feb 24, 2021 16:51:48 GMT -5
Isn't 2ms beneath the human threshold for discerning an impulse as 'different'? It's not about your ear hearing one wave distinct and separate, delayed with respect to another. That takes 30-40ms ... ish. It's about two waves reaching your ear and your brain mixing them together with the result being ambiguity of direction and distance and also interference patterns at many frequencies related to the difference in distance relative to wavelength. I have one of my subs delayed 1ms vs the other, and I can measure the difference in the combined response. |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
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Post by ttocs on Feb 24, 2021 17:03:53 GMT -5
It's not about your ear hearing one wave distinct and separate, delayed with respect to another. It's about two waves reaching your ear and your brain mixing them together with the result being ambiguity of direction and distance and also interference patterns at many frequencies related to the difference in distance relative to wavelength.  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 24, 2021 17:23:54 GMT -5
The main problem with Enhanced Bass is that it is simply not proper bass management. While you can certainly do enhanced bass in several different ways...
It will never be a good feature nor have a place in proper bass management...
The way bass management was envisioned to begin with was that full range speakers operate full range... Satellite speakers, which are designed to operate above a crossover frequency, are assigned a crossover... Information from the LFE channel is routed to the sub... And, for channels whose speakers are considered to be small satellites, information below the crossover frequency is also routed to the sub...
The idea was simply that, for upper frequencies, where our brains are good at localization, the location of the speakers is critical to sound stage and imaging. And, for low frequencies, which our brains cannot localize, the optimum speaker locations are going to be determined by things like room geometry. (And these almost never work out to being the same locations that are optimal for the speakers that deliver the frequencies that control sound stage.)
As originally envisioned the crossover was supposed to be fixed at either 80 Hz or 100 Hz. Since many modern speakers are capable of going reasonably low the crossover was made adjustable.
We provide the Enhanced Bass option because many of our customers ask for it. However, for the best possible sound quality, we always recommend not enabling it. (Which is the main reason we aren't likely to expend much effort trying to make it better... )
REL is entitled to their opinions about how bass management should be done... (REL makes very nice subs... so feel free to purchase one or two... and connect them any way you prefer.)
Just did a new Dirac run and firmware flash, sounds incredible! So, is there a way to have fronts large and subs active with analog input? P1 set as fronts large and subs center mono they are not active. Would this require enhanced bass? Yes this requires Enhanced bass to be on. The problem with Enhaced bass is the simple HF crossover Emotiva has. It simply uses your crossover settings from the front small settings. At the lowest 40hz, in increments of 10hz. Probably not low enough and too big steps to get it to play perfectly with your fronts. If Emotiva could have improved the crossover settings Enhanced bass could be a really good feature. It’s like a digital low level ”REL high level” setting of sort.. |
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Post by marcl on Feb 24, 2021 18:20:55 GMT -5
The main problem with Enhanced Bass is that it is simply not proper bass management. While you can certainly do enhanced bass in several different ways...
It will never be a good feature nor have a place in proper bass management...
The way bass management was envisioned to begin with was that full range speakers operate full range... Satellite speakers, which are designed to operate above a crossover frequency, are assigned a crossover... Information from the LFE channel is routed to the sub... And, for channels whose speakers are considered to be small satellites, information below the crossover frequency is also routed to the sub...
The idea was simply that, for upper frequencies, where our brains are good at localization, the location of the speakers is critical to sound stage and imaging. And, for low frequencies, which our brains cannot localize, the optimum speaker locations are going to be determined by things like room geometry. (And these almost never work out to being the same locations that are optimal for the speakers that deliver the frequencies that control sound stage.)
As originally envisioned the crossover was supposed to be fixed at either 80 Hz or 100 Hz. Since many modern speakers are capable of going reasonably low the crossover was made adjustable.
We provide the Enhanced Bass option because many of our customers ask for it. However, for the best possible sound quality, we always recommend not enabling it. (Which is the main reason we aren't likely to expend much effort trying to make it better... )
REL is entitled to their opinions about how bass management should be done... (REL makes very nice subs... so feel free to purchase one or two... and connect them any way you prefer.)
Yes this requires Enhanced bass to be on. The problem with Enhaced bass is the simple HF crossover Emotiva has. It simply uses your crossover settings from the front small settings. At the lowest 40hz, in increments of 10hz. Probably not low enough and too big steps to get it to play perfectly with your fronts. If Emotiva could have improved the crossover settings Enhanced bass could be a really good feature. It’s like a digital low level ”REL high level” setting of sort.. I like what you're saying, Keith, but there is a scenario that doesn't quite fit. For speakers that go down to 30-40Hz, you could say just to make them Small and cross them at 40Hz to get that extra octave or so if you need it. I would do that. No problem. But given that we have this very cool feature to separate LFE from Bass Management - which are indeed two completely separate and distinct things - then we have other choices. I think the best choice is to use subwoofers for LFE primarily, and use front speakers for Bass Management. That will give you the best LFE. And it will give you the best bass for ALL your speakers down to the limit of the front speakers. And if that limit were to be 20-30Hz, maybe we'd be done. But if the lower limit of the front speakers is 40Hz, and some music and non-LFE surround can go down to 30Hz, then we need a way to route bass below 40Hz to the subs. Okay, Enhanced Bass is not a good solution for that. The best solution would be to be able to use the LFE option for Center Sub, and then to have some check box for where to route Bass Management. The simplest answer would be to not default Bass Management to L/R subs first, and large speakers second. The simplest answer would be a check box .... send Bass Management to L/R Subs, OR send Bass Management to L/R Fronts (irrespective of whether they are configured large or small!). That's simple, and it lets you decide where to send Bass Management irrespective of whether the fronts are large or small, so you always have the option of making the fronts small and crossing them at 40Hz. Eliminate the Enhanced Bass feature completely. And BTW, in this solution as with the current, it's important that Bass Management be attenuated 3db for every speaker in excess of 1, including if it's sent to the fronts. If Bass Management goes to three subs, attenuate 6db; if Bass Management goes to two subs or two fronts, attenuate 3db. |
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 24, 2021 18:39:51 GMT -5
The main problem with Enhanced Bass is that it is simply not proper bass management. While you can certainly do enhanced bass in several different ways...
It will never be a good feature nor have a place in proper bass management...
The way bass management was envisioned to begin with was that full range speakers operate full range... Satellite speakers, which are designed to operate above a crossover frequency, are assigned a crossover... Information from the LFE channel is routed to the sub... And, for channels whose speakers are considered to be small satellites, information below the crossover frequency is also routed to the sub...
The idea was simply that, for upper frequencies, where our brains are good at localization, the location of the speakers is critical to sound stage and imaging. And, for low frequencies, which our brains cannot localize, the optimum speaker locations are going to be determined by things like room geometry. (And these almost never work out to being the same locations that are optimal for the speakers that deliver the frequencies that control sound stage.)
As originally envisioned the crossover was supposed to be fixed at either 80 Hz or 100 Hz. Since many modern speakers are capable of going reasonably low the crossover was made adjustable.
We provide the Enhanced Bass option because many of our customers ask for it. However, for the best possible sound quality, we always recommend not enabling it. (Which is the main reason we aren't likely to expend much effort trying to make it better... )
REL is entitled to their opinions about how bass management should be done... (REL makes very nice subs... so feel free to purchase one or two... and connect them any way you prefer.)
Yes this requires Enhanced bass to be on. The problem with Enhaced bass is the simple HF crossover Emotiva has. It simply uses your crossover settings from the front small settings. At the lowest 40hz, in increments of 10hz. Probably not low enough and too big steps to get it to play perfectly with your fronts. If Emotiva could have improved the crossover settings Enhanced bass could be a really good feature. It’s like a digital low level ”REL high level” setting of sort.. Yes Keith, I agree! But as you can configure the slope, 12 or 24db, set the cross point you have actually almost a better standing point than REL with their subs. The problem is, we need more slope settings and lower crossovers with lower increments. I have talked to Damon about this a while back. He said some of this was on your LONG todo list already.  If we had deeper settings Enhanced bass could be a great feature. Just measure were your fronts fall off, then use Enhanced bass to kick in just at the right frequency to get a flat response. Some just have to use their floor standing front speakers all the way or they think it’s a waste of speaker. Or they simply don’t want a crossover in their setup for some reason. Most REL users use their ears to set this cross but IMO you’ll never get it completely correct. You’ll have to measure if you’re going to use this feature IMO. Btw I’m not using it myself.. I was just answering a question by another user.. I’m actually somewhat negative towards REL and their high level connection. |
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Post by idea53 on Feb 25, 2021 7:02:51 GMT -5
Sounds like this is what Dirac Live Bass Management does since it wants to take control over the whole bass management, cross-over frequencies etc. Works great on my Arcam AVR20 that I use in my TV and HiFi-system. My RMC-1 is used in my Home Theater 7.3.4 Atmos system were I eagerly awaits Emotiva to get DLBM up and running (or else I will sell of the RMC-1 and get something that has DLBM working).
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Post by marcl on Feb 25, 2021 10:01:39 GMT -5
Sounds like this is what Dirac Live Bass Management does since it wants to take control over the whole bass management, cross-over frequencies etc. Works great on my Arcam AVR20 that I use in my TV and HiFi-system. My RMC-1 is used in my Home Theater 7.3.4 Atmos system were I eagerly awaits Emotiva to get DLBM up and running (or else I will sell of the RMC-1 and get something that has DLBM working). Yes but it is a long way off, to say the least. A couple short term feature tweaks would go a long way. There is one legitimate bug which causes bass management to play +3db (or more) too loud when sent only to large speakers, and there is no workaround for this. That should be fixed. But allowing bass management to go to the fronts while leaving them small would be an excellent option and worth trading away Enhanced Bass. As for multiple subs, we do have the relatively inexpensive option of using a miniDSP which - while not as sophisticated a solution as DLBC - gets you very nearly there. BTW, to me the most appealing aspect of DLBC is the phase correction between pairs of ALL speakers (not just subs) to improve response at the crossover frequency. This is a benefit even with one sub, apparently. |
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uwe
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RMC-1
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Post by uwe on Feb 25, 2021 11:54:15 GMT -5
The main problem with Enhanced Bass is that it is simply not proper bass management. While you can certainly do enhanced bass in several different ways...
It will never be a good feature nor have a place in proper bass management...
The way bass management was envisioned to begin with was that full range speakers operate full range... Satellite speakers, which are designed to operate above a crossover frequency, are assigned a crossover... Information from the LFE channel is routed to the sub... And, for channels whose speakers are considered to be small satellites, information below the crossover frequency is also routed to the sub...
The idea was simply that, for upper frequencies, where our brains are good at localization, the location of the speakers is critical to sound stage and imaging. And, for low frequencies, which our brains cannot localize, the optimum speaker locations are going to be determined by things like room geometry. (And these almost never work out to being the same locations that are optimal for the speakers that deliver the frequencies that control sound stage.)
As originally envisioned the crossover was supposed to be fixed at either 80 Hz or 100 Hz. Since many modern speakers are capable of going reasonably low the crossover was made adjustable.
We provide the Enhanced Bass option because many of our customers ask for it. However, for the best possible sound quality, we always recommend not enabling it. (Which is the main reason we aren't likely to expend much effort trying to make it better... )
REL is entitled to their opinions about how bass management should be done... (REL makes very nice subs... so feel free to purchase one or two... and connect them any way you prefer.)
Yes this requires Enhanced bass to be on. The problem with Enhaced bass is the simple HF crossover Emotiva has. It simply uses your crossover settings from the front small settings. At the lowest 40hz, in increments of 10hz. Probably not low enough and too big steps to get it to play perfectly with your fronts. If Emotiva could have improved the crossover settings Enhanced bass could be a really good feature. It’s like a digital low level ”REL high level” setting of sort.. Perhaps these considerations, the pros and cons of the "Enhanced Bass" can brighten: www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mid_bass_module_1.html
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Post by marcl on Feb 25, 2021 13:29:46 GMT -5
The main problem with Enhanced Bass is that it is simply not proper bass management. While you can certainly do enhanced bass in several different ways...
It will never be a good feature nor have a place in proper bass management...
The way bass management was envisioned to begin with was that full range speakers operate full range... Satellite speakers, which are designed to operate above a crossover frequency, are assigned a crossover... Information from the LFE channel is routed to the sub... And, for channels whose speakers are considered to be small satellites, information below the crossover frequency is also routed to the sub...
The idea was simply that, for upper frequencies, where our brains are good at localization, the location of the speakers is critical to sound stage and imaging. And, for low frequencies, which our brains cannot localize, the optimum speaker locations are going to be determined by things like room geometry. (And these almost never work out to being the same locations that are optimal for the speakers that deliver the frequencies that control sound stage.)
As originally envisioned the crossover was supposed to be fixed at either 80 Hz or 100 Hz. Since many modern speakers are capable of going reasonably low the crossover was made adjustable.
We provide the Enhanced Bass option because many of our customers ask for it. However, for the best possible sound quality, we always recommend not enabling it. (Which is the main reason we aren't likely to expend much effort trying to make it better... )
REL is entitled to their opinions about how bass management should be done... (REL makes very nice subs... so feel free to purchase one or two... and connect them any way you prefer.)
Perhaps these considerations, the pros and cons of the "Enhanced Bass" can brighten: www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mid_bass_module_1.html
What I do in my system, it is ... -ish. The article makes a good case for the mid-bass driver running in parallel. But Enhanced Bass would have to cross over much higher - maybe as high as 200Hz - to accomplish this. And I'll repeat the case I've made many times ... I don't think subs are typically well-suited to playing above 100Hz. My original idea was to use a Magnepan DWM (about one square foot of a model 20's planar woofer) connected to one of the sub outputs, and subs to the others. The DWM's response is 50-200Hz. I would then use the sub's crossover at 50Hz so between them they would tag-team bass management. All the small speakers would get Maggie bass down to 50, then on to the subs. Enhanced Bass would let the large fronts play in parallel with bass sent to the DWM as high as necessary, then on to the subs below 50. I have some dips in the 100-150 range as well as one around 60, so this might have worked. The only problem with this idea was sending LFE to the DWM was a very bad idea ... it just could not take the dynamics of some LFE content. So back to the ideas above .... one problem to solve is allowing bass management to go to the fronts but still allow the fronts to cross over to subs. We can't do that today. The ability to add a mid-bass driver is a very good one. I managed to solve it and it works great! |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Feb 25, 2021 14:48:26 GMT -5
A lot of how you think about it is a matter of semantics... I don't particularly disagree with the author... but nowhere does he use the term "enhanced bass".
I would define their "mid-bass module" as simply a woofer (with a relatively low upper crossover point). In that particular case the woofer portion of the speaker happens to have a separate box. There are plenty of speakers where one of more drivers has a separate more-or-less isolated enclosure. And, if you add this to an existing speaker, then you are simply "redesigning the speaker"... Specifically it is now "one more way than it was originally"...
However I would NOT count any of that as "bass management"... And the author of the article seems to agree... In that situation I would either: - Set the Front speaker to LARGE and then add an actual active multi-way crossover to the system (or a hybrid crossover). - Set the front to SMALL, set the bass management crossover to the sub rather low, and use a separate crossover for the speaker itself. (Now considering the original speaker plus the new module to be "the speaker".... and using either a passive or active crossover for it.)
While it might be nice if the processor could provide all of the active filtering this might require...
And it might be an interesting option to offer...
It really goes beyond "bass management" or "enhanced bass" - and into the area of "a configurable multi-way active crossover"... As such, you can simply set the Front Main speakers to large, and leave the LFE channel routed to the Sub output... You then have all of the signals you need at those three outputs...
And you can send them to an external active crossover that you can program any way you like...
(Something like the Behringer programmable active crossover offers lots of routing and filter options.) (I believe the miniDSP even lets you create and program your own custom BiQuads...)
What I do in my system, it is ... -ish. The article makes a good case for the mid-bass driver running in parallel. But Enhanced Bass would have to cross over much higher - maybe as high as 200Hz - to accomplish this. And I'll repeat the case I've made many times ... I don't think subs are typically well-suited to playing above 100Hz. My original idea was to use a Magnepan DWM (about one square foot of a model 20's planar woofer) connected to one of the sub outputs, and subs to the others. The DWM's response is 50-200Hz. I would then use the sub's crossover at 50Hz so between them they would tag-team bass management. All the small speakers would get Maggie bass down to 50, then on to the subs. Enhanced Bass would let the large fronts play in parallel with bass sent to the DWM as high as necessary, then on to the subs below 50. I have some dips in the 100-150 range as well as one around 60, so this might have worked. The only problem with this idea was sending LFE to the DWM was a very bad idea ... it just could not take the dynamics of some LFE content. So back to the ideas above .... one problem to solve is allowing bass management to go to the fronts but still allow the fronts to cross over to subs. We can't do that today. The ability to add a mid-bass driver is a very good one. I managed to solve it and it works great! |
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Post by leonski on Feb 25, 2021 16:32:38 GMT -5
MiniDSP 2x4 has a hard limit of 0.9v output. This might not drive some amps to full power.
Better would be the 2x4HD which is 2v output.
And the 2x4HD will also do either FIR or IIR filters. You can make a filter with NO phase shift thru the passband which would be a nice addition.
It also features the (for MINI) usual selection of Parametric EQ available on each input and output. You theortetically could 'notch out' a bad room peak....
And yes, the DWM is not a woofer or 'sub'. But rather augments mid-bass which helps panels in larger rooms which tend to suck up the lower frequencies.
And is the DWM a push-pull design? If not, the 'it is related to the 20' is not quite accurate. Maggie 20 series have always been push-pull with a Pole Piece on
EITHER side of the mylar.
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Post by marcl on Feb 25, 2021 17:23:55 GMT -5
MiniDSP 2x4 has a hard limit of 0.9v output. This might not drive some amps to full power. Better would be the 2x4HD which is 2v output. And the 2x4HD will also do either FIR or IIR filters. You can make a filter with NO phase shift thru the passband which would be a nice addition. It also features the (for MINI) usual selection of Parametric EQ available on each input and output. You theortetically could 'notch out' a bad room peak.... And yes, the DWM is not a woofer or 'sub'. But rather augments mid-bass which helps panels in larger rooms which tend to suck up the lower frequencies. And is the DWM a push-pull design? If not, the 'it is related to the 20' is not quite accurate. Maggie 20 series have always been push-pull with a Pole Piece on EITHER side of the mylar. Yes, exactly. DWM is push pull. I use a miniDSP 2X4 Balanced for the subs and a miniDSP 2X4 HD for the DWM's and to send L/R <40Hz to the subs while leaving them set to Large.  |
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