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Post by tngiloy on Jul 23, 2020 5:45:03 GMT -5
Can you tell me if speaker x-overs are input into and adjusted inside of D3, or are they still independently loaded into the speaker setup ?
Over the past few years I have used ARC(Anthem). In ARC the x-overs could be changed after the reading and the solution would change, albeit slightly, when the x-overs were changed in the ARC program. It makes no sense to have an adjustment that affects the sound outside of the RC system, and not plugged into the calculations.
Also Keith - the x-overs were more adjustable (60/65/70/75/80/85 etc..) in Anthem's and many other processors. Why doesn't Emo offer more x-over choices?? It really makes no sense to limit your x-overs in your premium processors. One of my few complaints with my XMC-1 and now RMC-1L.
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Post by geebo on Jul 23, 2020 6:40:38 GMT -5
Can you tell me if speaker x-overs are input into and adjusted inside of D3, or are they still independently loaded into the speaker setup ? Over the past few years I have used ARC(Anthem). In ARC the x-overs could be changed after the reading and the solution would change, albeit slightly, when the x-overs were changed in the ARC program. It makes no sense to have an adjustment that affects the sound outside of the RC system, and not plugged into the calculations. Also Keith - the x-overs were more adjustable (60/65/70/75/80/85 etc..) in Anthem's and many other processors. Why doesn't Emo offer more x-over choices?? It really makes no sense to limit your x-overs in your premium processors. One of my few complaints with my XMC-1 and now RMC-1L. The crossovers are handled outside of Dirac. That is, the user must set them for each preset and can be changed at any time. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 7:09:34 GMT -5
I would also recommend leaving them at 0, then when Dirac is done, you can use the levels to ‘tweak’ the settings from everything being level at 0. If you’ve already set them, you might want to record the levels for future use, then set them to 0. I was wondering the same thing, but videos that Emotiva shares say otherwise. In Dirac Guide, Nick says here youtu.be/pLJYPuwKRmg?t=129 to do a basic setup of the processor, which includes levels and distances, also speaker sizes: youtu.be/bw72eXiDnMM?t=182So I'm still unsure, also about whether or not crossover settings will impact Dirac measurement... I've watched other video guides (admittedly, for Arcam) that say to set all speakers to Large for the duration of Dirac setup, so that they're measured full-range. Emotiva, it may be a good idea to clear it up in the Dirac Manual PDF, please  Many/most of us started by setting our levels and distances as we’d done in the past, crossovers too. But the Dirac measurement process won’t use any of it, so at the end of the day, most of us felt it was better to have your ‘level’ settings be at 0, but it’s totally up to you. You can also use the Dirac curves to help you choose a crossover point (article in 2nd post), but they don’t affect your measurements (and even if the speakers are set to small they’re measured full range). |
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lokyc
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Post by lokyc on Jul 23, 2020 8:30:19 GMT -5
I was wondering the same thing, but videos that Emotiva shares say otherwise. In Dirac Guide, Nick says here youtu.be/pLJYPuwKRmg?t=129 to do a basic setup of the processor, which includes levels and distances, also speaker sizes: youtu.be/bw72eXiDnMM?t=182So I'm still unsure, also about whether or not crossover settings will impact Dirac measurement... I've watched other video guides (admittedly, for Arcam) that say to set all speakers to Large for the duration of Dirac setup, so that they're measured full-range. Emotiva, it may be a good idea to clear it up in the Dirac Manual PDF, please Most of us started by setting our levels and distances as we’d done in the past, crossovers too. But the Dirac measurement process won’t use any of it, so at the end of the day, most of us felt it was better to have your ‘level’ settings be at 0, but it’s totally up to you. You can also use the Dirac curves to help you choose a crossover point (article in 2nd post), but they don’t affect your measurements (and even if the speakers are set to small they’re measured full range). Hmm, getting confused now. Are we setting crossovers on the GP3s or not? Dirac will just figure out phase rotations etc for each speaker? |
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Post by tngiloy on Jul 23, 2020 8:33:12 GMT -5
Can you tell me if speaker x-overs are input into and adjusted inside of D3, or are they still independently loaded into the speaker setup ? Over the past few years I have used ARC(Anthem). In ARC the x-overs could be changed after the reading and the solution would change, albeit slightly, when the x-overs were changed in the ARC program. It makes no sense to have an adjustment that affects the sound outside of the RC system, and not plugged into the calculations. Also Keith - the x-overs were more adjustable (60/65/70/75/80/85 etc..) in Anthem's and many other processors. Why doesn't Emo offer more x-over choices?? It really makes no sense to limit your x-overs in your premium processors. One of my few complaints with my XMC-1 and now RMC-1L. The crossovers are handled outside of Dirac. That is, the user must set them for each preset and can be changed at any time. So can I 'kind of' adjust x-overs in Dirac by using the curtains ? And again to Keith- is there a way to add more choices for x-overs in the setup menu? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 23, 2020 8:49:21 GMT -5
Most of us started by setting our levels and distances as we’d done in the past, crossovers too. But the Dirac measurement process won’t use any of it, so at the end of the day, most of us felt it was better to have your ‘level’ settings be at 0, but it’s totally up to you. You can also use the Dirac curves to help you choose a crossover point (article in 2nd post), but they don’t affect your measurements (and even if the speakers are set to small they’re measured full range). Hmm, getting confused now. Are we setting crossovers on the GP3s or not? Dirac will just figure out phase rotations etc for each speaker? The only speaker setting Dirac cares about is which speakers are active so it knows which speakers will be measured and calibrated. Dirac ignores Speaker Crossover settings during measurements. Dirac will measure each speaker full range. Set the crossover settings to what you want after Dirac is finished. Dirac ignores Speaker Distance during measurements. Distance doesn't show up after a Dirac filter is active. So Distance doesn't matter for Dirac. Dirac ignores Speaker Levels during measurements. Dirac will measure the same no matter what the levels are in the D3P Menu. Set the levels to what you want after Dirac is finished. You will find that a setting at or near zero will be the final setting. No D3P Menu setting other than which speakers are active matter for Dirac measurements. Only settings within the Dirac app will affect the how the Filter is created. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 23, 2020 9:13:09 GMT -5
Hmm, getting confused now. Are we setting crossovers on the GP3s or not? Dirac will just figure out phase rotations etc for each speaker? The only speaker setting Dirac cares about is which speakers are active so it knows which speakers will be measured and calibrated. Dirac ignores Speaker Crossover settings during measurements. Dirac will measure each speaker full range. Set the crossover settings to what you want after Dirac is finished. Dirac ignores Speaker Distance during measurements. Distance doesn't show up after a Dirac filter is active. So Distance doesn't matter for Dirac. Dirac ignores Speaker Levels during measurements. Dirac will measure the same no matter what the levels are in the D3P Menu. Set the levels to what you want after Dirac is finished. You will find that a setting at or near zero will be the final setting. No D3P Menu setting other than which speakers are active matter for Dirac measurements. Only settings within the Dirac app will affect the how the Filter is created. And I believe with Dirac 1.0, after calibration the level settings that we can adjust were all set back to 0. I recall always having to go back and (seeing them reset to 0) tweak them a little for my taste and overall room response. Likely the same with 3.x. Since Dirac measures each speaker without regard to bass management (i.e. the subwoofers are measured separately from each other and separately from the other speakers) changing the crossovers before or after calibration will have no bearing on the filter parameters themselves. It will have a bearing on the combined response with bass management. So sometimes you might go back and alter the target curve to compensate for the measured (or perceived) response with bass management. Dirac recommends a target curve for each speaker based on its full range measurement, and this can help inform the choice of crossover for each speaker. For example, my surrounds roll off at about 80Hz and the Dirac recommended target curve followed that natural rolloff. Based on what I saw, I would experiment with crossover points 80-90-100 and measure the result. Someone mentioned in an earlier post about using Dirac's target curve as a crossover to explicitly roll off a speaker's response. Yes, you can do this. The Curtain defines the area that Dirac does not correct. It leaves it as it is. But the Target Curve can have points added to explicitly create a rolloff. For example, you could cut your subwoofer response sharply below 20Hz .... or sharply above 80Hz ... if either suits your taste or the helps mitigate limitations of your subwoofer. There's no other way to do this in the processor. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 23, 2020 9:43:53 GMT -5
1, And I believe with Dirac 1.0, after calibration the level settings that we can adjust were all set back to 0. I recall always having to go back and (seeing them reset to 0) tweak them a little for my taste and overall room response. Likely the same with 3.x.2. Since Dirac measures each speaker without regard to bass management (i.e. the subwoofers are measured separately from each other and separately from the other speakers) changing the crossovers before or after calibration will have no bearing on the filter parameters themselves. It will have a bearing on the combined response with bass management. So sometimes you might go back and alter the target curve to compensate for the measured (or perceived) response with bass management. 3. Dirac recommends a target curve for each speaker based on its full range measurement, and this can help inform the choice of crossover for each speaker. For example, my surrounds roll off at about 80Hz and the Dirac recommended target curve followed that natural rolloff. Based on what I saw, I would experiment with crossover points 80-90-100 and measure the result. 1. After running 3.0 a few speakers were a little too strong, so a couple speakers are now at -1.5dB and a few at -1dB. The range is pretty tight. 2. I'm hoping to play with the combined subs via miniDSP/REW next week. You've talked about this a lot and I'm looking forward to learning about how this will work in practice. 3. This hadn't occurred to me. This is a great recommendation! I simply chose a crossover that is higher than the speakers are rated at, but your suggestion is very scientific and straightforward. I'm very surprised how low my little surrounds measure, and very happy that my big speakers actually measure better than spec! This is with the EMM-1 mic. I'll be comparing how the EMM-1 works vs the UMIK-1 mic I just got, probably over the weekend. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 10:06:15 GMT -5
3. Dirac recommends a target curve for each speaker based on its full range measurement, and this can help inform the choice of crossover for each speaker. For example, my surrounds roll off at about 80Hz and the Dirac recommended target curve followed that natural rolloff. Based on what I saw, I would experiment with crossover points 80-90-100 and measure the result. 3. This hadn't occurred to me. This is a great recommendation! I simply chose a crossover that is higher than the speakers are rated at, but your suggestion is very scientific and straightforward. This is what I’ve been mentioning the following article talks about. I’ve been tweaking my crossovers based on the measured curves. (I just changed the 2nd post link name to make it more evident) mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-avr-crossover/ |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 10:15:00 GMT -5
Most of us started by setting our levels and distances as we’d done in the past, crossovers too. But the Dirac measurement process won’t use any of it, so at the end of the day, most of us felt it was better to have your ‘level’ settings be at 0, but it’s totally up to you. You can also use the Dirac curves to help you choose a crossover point (article in 2nd post), but they don’t affect your measurements (and even if the speakers are set to small they’re measured full range). Hmm, getting confused now. Are we setting crossovers on the GP3s or not? Dirac will just figure out phase rotations etc for each speaker? The crossovers are still used before and after Dirac, just not while the speakers are being measured, so yes, you need to set them. |
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errtu
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Post by errtu on Jul 23, 2020 12:02:05 GMT -5
3. Dirac recommends a target curve for each speaker based on its full range measurement, and this can help inform the choice of crossover for each speaker. For example, my surrounds roll off at about 80Hz and the Dirac recommended target curve followed that natural rolloff. Based on what I saw, I would experiment with crossover points 80-90-100 and measure the result. 3. This hadn't occurred to me. This is a great recommendation! I simply chose a crossover that is higher than the speakers are rated at, but your suggestion is very scientific and straightforward. This is what I’ve been mentioning the following article talks about. I’ve been tweaking my crossovers based on the measured curves. (I just changed the 2nd post link name to make it more evident) mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-avr-crossover/Agreed, although it's worth stressing that 1 octave above/below the crossover point applies only in case of 6 dB/octave slope. On the topic of slopes, it's a bit of a shame that Dirac (in current version) won't compensate for phase distortion introduced by the crossover. For that, we'll need DLBC. |
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Post by bblv on Jul 23, 2020 12:32:11 GMT -5
Most people will be surprised at how much lower frequency boost they will prefer when dialing in their house curve. I know I sure was - to the tune of about 12db under 200Hz. If I jacked it up 12db below 200hz in my room the walls would collapse 😂 Oh it definitely sounds/feels like the walls and ceiling are going to collapse, but why have dual 15" LCR mains and dual 24" subs if you want to keep the house in one piece?  And that's a very good point by AudioHTIT that it's very room and "ear" dependent (and obviously the target house curve doesn't directly translate to the resulting measured response curve). I guess my point was don't aim for a flat curve - you will likely have to redo Dirac several times to get a result that "sounds good" to you based on your initial target house curve and you'll likely be surprised how non-flat that target house curve is. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 12:45:37 GMT -5
If I jacked it up 12db below 200hz in my room the walls would collapse 😂 Oh it definitely sounds/feels like the walls and ceiling are going to collapse, but why have dual 15" LCR mains and dual 24" subs if you want to keep the house in one piece? And that's a very good point by AudioHTIT that it's very room and "ear" dependent (and obviously the target house curve doesn't directly translate to the resulting measured response curve). I guess my point was don't aim for a flat curve - you will likely have to redo Dirac several times to get a result that "sounds good" to you based on your initial target house curve and you'll likely be surprised how non-flat that target house curve is. The good thing is, if you take good measurements, and save your project so it can be recalled, it’s easy to choose a different target and build new filters. |
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lokyc
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Post by lokyc on Jul 23, 2020 13:15:44 GMT -5
This is what I’ve been mentioning the following article talks about. I’ve been tweaking my crossovers based on the measured curves. (I just changed the 2nd post link name to make it more evident) mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-avr-crossover/Agreed, although it's worth stressing that 1 octave above/below the crossover point applies only in case of 6 dB/octave slope. On the topic of slopes, it's a bit of a shame that Dirac (in current version) won't compensate for phase distortion introduced by the crossover. For that, we'll need DLBC. Yes, phase distortion from crossover is what I was thinking about. I remember setting it on AnthemRoom Correction. I though that was the whole point in DSP to have advanced crossover algorithms applied like Neville-Thiele. At least I can select a 12db or 24db slope on the processor. Also why I think using target curves to manage crossover may not be a good idea. I have been using Acourate to generate crossovers and have huge flexibility on slope and crossover types to choose from. Now I get all the excitement on DLBC. Is that an addon option we can purchase? Sure that has been discussed before. |
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lokyc
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Post by lokyc on Jul 23, 2020 13:29:46 GMT -5
Just seen how much DLBC costs. US$349 for single sub! Daylight robbery!
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Post by marcl on Jul 23, 2020 14:00:11 GMT -5
Just seen how much DLBC costs. US$349 for single sub! Daylight robbery! I don't expect this to happen, but I think Dirac would do well to offer a 30 day trial for DLBC. There's a lot more to it than what it does specifically to the one sub. There are crossover settings and the fact that they also align phase between pairs of other speakers. This is significant ... align phase between your left/right fronts, left/right surrounds, etc. And this (presumably positively) affects how the other speakers integrate with the subs and each other at the crossover points. I think it's pretty hard to judge without trying whether it's worth it for a single sub. It could be the single sub gets you the most bang for the buck ... or that it's not worth doing unless you have at least two subs. We'll probably have to rely on reviews and forums from the other devices that have it now, then make a call if/when it becomes an option for Emotiva. |
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lokyc
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Post by lokyc on Jul 23, 2020 14:04:39 GMT -5
Just seen how much DLBC costs. US$349 for single sub! Daylight robbery! I don't expect this to happen, but I think Dirac would do well to offer a 30 day trial for DLBC. There's a lot more to it than what it does specifically to the one sub. There are crossover settings and the fact that they also align phase between pairs of other speakers. This is significant ... align phase between your left/right fronts, left/right surrounds, etc. And this (presumably positively) affects how the other speakers integrate with the subs and each other at the crossover points. I think it's pretty hard to judge without trying whether it's worth it for a single sub. It could be the single sub gets you the most bang for the buck ... or that it's not worth doing unless you have at least two subs. We'll probably have to rely on reviews and forums from the other devices that have it now, then make a call if/when it becomes an option for Emotiva. I'm not saying the product isn't good. But we paid for a dam licence with the processor! I paid similar amount for Acourate that do all that! Ok its a pain to setup but very advanced. Dirac should at least have crossover settings by default an phase alignment. Time alignment is everything. Charge for multiple subs. But single should be included or at least saybaround 99usd |
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richb
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Post by richb on Jul 23, 2020 14:15:58 GMT -5
Just seen how much DLBC costs. US$349 for single sub! Daylight robbery! I don't expect this to happen, but I think Dirac would do well to offer a 30 day trial for DLBC. There's a lot more to it than what it does specifically to the one sub. There are crossover settings and the fact that they also align phase between pairs of other speakers. This is significant ... align phase between your left/right fronts, left/right surrounds, etc. And this (presumably positively) affects how the other speakers integrate with the subs and each other at the crossover points. I think it's pretty hard to judge without trying whether it's worth it for a single sub. It could be the single sub gets you the most bang for the buck ... or that it's not worth doing unless you have at least two subs. We'll probably have to rely on reviews and forums from the other devices that have it now, then make a call if/when it becomes an option for Emotiva. That would amount to 30 days to create custom DLBM curves. Once uploaded, they are going to stay. I'd still think that it would be a good idea. If it does not work well, it would be a bad idea - Rich |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 14:18:36 GMT -5
... Also why I think using target curves to manage crossover may not be a good idea. I have been using Acourate to generate crossovers and have huge flexibility on slope and crossover types to choose from. ... I’m not sure if you’re referring to the article I linked, but it doesn’t use target curves, nor does it manage crossovers, but rather just suggests using the measurements to help you pick a good crossover point for each of your speakers. But your point that Dirac makes no accommodation for anything introduced by the crossover Is well taken. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 14:25:34 GMT -5
I don't expect this to happen, but I think Dirac would do well to offer a 30 day trial for DLBC. There's a lot more to it than what it does specifically to the one sub. There are crossover settings and the fact that they also align phase between pairs of other speakers. This is significant ... align phase between your left/right fronts, left/right surrounds, etc. And this (presumably positively) affects how the other speakers integrate with the subs and each other at the crossover points. I think it's pretty hard to judge without trying whether it's worth it for a single sub. It could be the single sub gets you the most bang for the buck ... or that it's not worth doing unless you have at least two subs. We'll probably have to rely on reviews and forums from the other devices that have it now, then make a call if/when it becomes an option for Emotiva. I'm not saying the product isn't good. But we paid for a dam licence with the processor! I paid similar amount for Acourate that do all that! Ok its a pain to setup but very advanced. Dirac should at least have crossover settings by default an phase alignment. Time alignment is everything. Charge for multiple subs. But single should be included or at least saybaround 99usd I agree it’s expensive and many will want the $449 DLBCMS, but I’m guessing Emotiva gets a good price on the bulk license for all their processors to use the base DL, and that’s what we pay for. For that ‘good price’ Dirac hopes they’ll be able to upsell some percentage of the users to DLBC, and I think their right, though at that price many will decide that just DL is good enough. |
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