lokyc
Minor Hero
Posts: 71
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Post by lokyc on Jul 23, 2020 14:56:47 GMT -5
I'm not saying the product isn't good. But we paid for a dam licence with the processor! I paid similar amount for Acourate that do all that! Ok its a pain to setup but very advanced. Dirac should at least have crossover settings by default an phase alignment. Time alignment is everything. Charge for multiple subs. But single should be included or at least saybaround 99usd I agree itβs expensive and many will want the $449 DLBCMS, but Iβm guessing Emotiva gets a good price on the bulk license for all their processors to use the base DL, and thatβs what we pay for. For that βgood priceβ Dirac hopes theyβll be able to upsell some percentage of the users to DLBC, and I think their right, though at that price many will decide that just DL is good enough. Yes I understood your post about using the measurements to work out the ideal crossover point. It was another poster later who suggested using the target curves to shape an LPF or HPF. Problem with that of course, is also there is no bass redirection. The thing is room correction goes a long way in bringing out the best in a preprocessor. Dirac is always a bit of a ripoff. I chose Acourate over Dirac PC as it was half the price. Also they had a buggy version which didn't work and then refused to extend the trial period when they finally sent me the right version. I was quite sold up till that point but their poor customer service put me off. Alas they are the only mass market alternative. Although i was close to going back to Anthem, but the AVM60 didn't have balanced analog inputs. Overall, Emo is tremendous good value. Who i really feel for are the Arcam users. They have to shell out that amount for DLBC after forking that much for the Arcam. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 23, 2020 15:21:06 GMT -5
I'm not saying the product isn't good. But we paid for a dam licence with the processor! I paid similar amount for Acourate that do all that! Ok its a pain to setup but very advanced. Dirac should at least have crossover settings by default an phase alignment. Time alignment is everything. Charge for multiple subs. But single should be included or at least saybaround 99usd I agree itβs expensive and many will want the $449 DLBCMS, but Iβm guessing Emotiva gets a good price on the bulk license for all their processors to use the base DL, and thatβs what we pay for. For that βgood priceβ Dirac hopes theyβll be able to upsell some percentage of the users to DLBC, and I think their right, though at that price many will decide that just DL is good enough. I would argue that DBC is a far better improvement that Dirac Live Base version. Of course... It needs to work. But, if you understand what it's purpose is, you'll see it may be the most impactful thing we've seen in a long time. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 15:30:03 GMT -5
I agree itβs expensive and many will want the $449 DLBCMS, but Iβm guessing Emotiva gets a good price on the bulk license for all their processors to use the base DL, and thatβs what we pay for. For that βgood priceβ Dirac hopes theyβll be able to upsell some percentage of the users to DLBC, and I think their right, though at that price many will decide that just DL is good enough. I would argue that DBC is a far better improvement that Dirac Live Base version. Of course... It needs to work. But, if you understand what it's purpose is, you'll see it may be the most impactful thing we've seen in a long time. Well I canβt argue that because we donβt have it, and I havenβt spent much time talking about the sound of DL yet, but ... I really like it. So, while for bass heads (especially those with more than one sub), and for those wanting to eek the very most out of their systems, you may be right, donβt sell plain olβ vanilla DL too short until youβve used it. |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,168
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Post by ttocs on Jul 23, 2020 15:45:59 GMT -5
^^^^^^ What AudioHTIT said. It'll be a week or two before I'll be able to learn-up myself on REW to check the Dirac results, but I'm happier with DL3.0 than I was with the Dirac Live 1.0 and with the LE version. It behooves everyone to look at the resources at the beginning of the thread, myself included btw. Watch the long videos, especially the one titled: Diracβs Jakob Agren Interviewed at Hi-Fi Summit. This has some excellent explanation about things to not stress about. Put the mic where you want it. Put it where it works. Pay attention to the most important mic position - The First Mic Spot. You don't have to do it one rigid way. Heck, for testing purposes I've done single point measurement sessions to get to learn the software a little, and I stress - a little. There's a lot to learn, but the initial results are really good. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 23, 2020 15:53:44 GMT -5
When set up I plan on running a REW sweep on the left speaker using reference stereo, the house curve, +4 Harmon, and +10 Harmon. Will be nice to see the results.π
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Post by marcl on Jul 23, 2020 16:11:39 GMT -5
For those who wonder what Dirac does vs room treatment, etc. Here's an example from my system with Dirac Full and XMC-1. Now, people can say what they want about trusting your ears vs measurements, etc. Here's a real 27x13x8 room, left channel Magnepan 3.7 .... Green - untreated room with one 10" subwoofer center of front wall Pink - added 20+ DIY fiberglass bass traps + 12" subwoofer (12"front, 10"back) Blue - Dirac Live with a flat target curve. Crossover to subs 40Hz. Subs fed from one output with Y cable. Shown with Variable Smoothing; 180Hz null due to dipole cancellation, not corrected by Dirac. In the time domain, resonances at the previous peak locations greatly reduced. Impulse responses time aligned.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 23, 2020 16:38:53 GMT -5
For those who wonder what Dirac does vs room treatment, etc. Here's an example from my system with Dirac Full and XMC-1. Now, people can say what they want about trusting your ears vs measurements, etc. Here's a real 27x13x8 room, left channel Magnepan 3.7 .... Green - untreated room with one 10" subwoofer center of front wall Pink - added 20+ DIY fiberglass bass traps + 12" subwoofer (12"front, 10"back) Blue - Dirac Live with a flat target curve. Crossover to subs 40Hz. Subs fed from one output with Y cable. Shown with Variable Smoothing; 180Hz null due to dipole cancellation, not corrected by Dirac. In the time domain, resonances at the previous peak locations greatly reduced. Impulse responses time aligned. So you got the additional bass energy below 40Hz with the bass traps? And then smoothed it nicely. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 23, 2020 17:56:43 GMT -5
For those who wonder what Dirac does vs room treatment, etc. Here's an example from my system with Dirac Full and XMC-1. Now, people can say what they want about trusting your ears vs measurements, etc. Here's a real 27x13x8 room, left channel Magnepan 3.7 .... Green - untreated room with one 10" subwoofer center of front wall Pink - added 20+ DIY fiberglass bass traps + 12" subwoofer (12"front, 10"back) Blue - Dirac Live with a flat target curve. Crossover to subs 40Hz. Subs fed from one output with Y cable. Shown with Variable Smoothing; 180Hz null due to dipole cancellation, not corrected by Dirac. In the time domain, resonances at the previous peak locations greatly reduced. Impulse responses time aligned. So you got the additional bass energy below 40Hz with the bass traps? And then smoothed it nicely. Sorry, no ... the 12" sub extended the response down to 17Hz. The traps sucked up some of the peaks and nulls but not all of them. Dirac flattened it all out and tightened the time domain. The big issue as you can see is the 27ft length of my room plus some other resonance modes results in a massive peak right around 40Hz which is pretty much impossible to remove with room treatment. And, it lands right where the crossover point wants to be and Dirac corrects the subs and main speakers separately. I had to fiddle with the curves a bit to get a smooth transition. |
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Post by Talley on Jul 23, 2020 18:30:07 GMT -5
So you got the additional bass energy below 40Hz with the bass traps? And then smoothed it nicely. Sorry, no ... the 12" sub extended the response down to 17Hz. The traps sucked up some of the peaks and nulls but not all of them. Dirac flattened it all out and tightened the time domain. The big issue as you can see is the 27ft length of my room plus some other resonance modes results in a massive peak right around 40Hz which is pretty much impossible to remove with room treatment. And, it lands right where the crossover point wants to be and Dirac corrects the subs and main speakers separately. I had to fiddle with the curves a bit to get a smooth transition. Actually you can. My uncles room is similar in size and he had to build this large absorption tube. He is an audiophile nut but has several friends who work in the recording studio business and this was designed by one of his friends. They built this back in 2002. The big white boxes are also to address a specific frequency as well. They found the loudest point to where the room was resonating at that frequency and built the tube to the matching frequency and it's filled with fiberglass to absorb that resonance.   |
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Post by Talley on Jul 23, 2020 19:52:18 GMT -5
Actually you can. My uncles room is similar in size and he had to build this large absorption tube. He is an audiophile nut but has several friends who work in the recording studio business and this was designed by one of his friends. They built this back in 2002. The big white boxes are also to address a specific frequency as well. They found the loudest point to where the room was resonating at that frequency and built the tube to the matching frequency and it's filled with fiberglass to absorb that resonance. Carver Amazing Loudspeaker...my unattainable dream speaker in college. Got a pair of JBL 4312s instead. Sorry... these are the Apogee duetta signature speakers from the 80s that have been fully rebuilt back in 04'. For music I have heard of nothing better. His room has over 200k in it... yes he is a nut. Info on the apogee: www.reality-audio.com/duetta_sig.html |
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Post by marcl on Jul 23, 2020 20:01:27 GMT -5
Sorry, no ... the 12" sub extended the response down to 17Hz. The traps sucked up some of the peaks and nulls but not all of them. Dirac flattened it all out and tightened the time domain. The big issue as you can see is the 27ft length of my room plus some other resonance modes results in a massive peak right around 40Hz which is pretty much impossible to remove with room treatment. And, it lands right where the crossover point wants to be and Dirac corrects the subs and main speakers separately. I had to fiddle with the curves a bit to get a smooth transition. Actually you can. My uncles room is similar in size and he had to build this large absorption tube. He is an audiophile nut but has several friends who work in the recording studio business and this was designed by one of his friends. They built this back in 2002. The big white boxes are also to address a specific frequency as well. They found the loudest point to where the room was resonating at that frequency and built the tube to the matching frequency and it's filled with fiberglass to absorb that resonance. Okay yes you can do Helmholz resonators and tuned membrane traps. The thing is they're really expensive and you can't know how many it will take until you do it and measure. DRC is much more cost effective, but it's still worth doing resistive traps for the resonances from Schroeder frequency down to 100Hz or a bit below. BTW ... love the diffusion :-)  |
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Post by bluescale on Jul 23, 2020 20:17:40 GMT -5
Q: Are there any known issues with the current Firmware and Dirac? A : The following notes are highlighted in the FW2.0 release document.
- Special Update Note, only for XMC-2 owners
- Due to the way this update interacts with the hardware on the XMC-2 there is a special note for running Dirac Live.
- When you enable the connection to Dirac Live in the Speaker Preset, your amplifiers will be triggered off.
- Therefor - before running Dirac Live on an XMC-2 with this Firmware release installed ...temporarily disconnect the trigger connections on your amplifiers and turn your amplifiers on manually.
- (This is only necessary while the connection between your XMC-2, the Dirac Live Network Interface box, and your computer, is enabled.)
- Alternately, with Emotiva and some other amplifiers, you can turn the amp on manually after they trigger off.
So I just went back to read the first post, and I came across this item. I'm wondering if anyone can explain what makes the XMC-2 different that causes this behavior. Obviously, it's not a huge deal, but it does make me curious. I was under the impression the only difference between the XMC-2 and the RMC-1L was the DAC configuration, and the dual LCD screens. Again, not a problem, but a curiosity. |
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Jason
Minor Hero
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Post by Jason on Jul 23, 2020 21:16:57 GMT -5
Now that things are starting to get real, I was reading through the forum posts about best practices and came up with a question that I probably should already know the answer to. I have a REL T/9i sub that's connected using the high-level input connected to my power amp as well as the RCA LFE connected to my XMC-2. This is REL's recommended configuration, and I have no complaints. When I go to run Dirac (specifically on front left and right channels), should I leave the REL's high-level input connected? Or should I disconnect it???
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jul 23, 2020 21:32:34 GMT -5
Being a Rel and Sumiko subs owner I've had mine connected each way/both ways/all ways.
The LFE will take care of itself because Dirac will see the sub via the channel which supplies LFE and Bass Management duties if that's how you set it up.
The High Level Neutrik connection requires more thought. Right now the I don't have the Neutrik cable connected. But when I do have it connected I choose to not have the sub active when calibrating the Main Left/Right speakers. This gets into timing issues that is better left to something like REW, which I've wandered into starting to use (wandering slowly). Now that Dirac is here I'm going to delve into it with more enthusiasm in the coming weeks.
You can always see what happens and test the Main Left/Right speakers with the subs attached and see which you like better. No harm, no foul in doing so. I know I'll be doing that along the way.
Bottom line, keep the LFE connected so the subs get some attention from Dirac. Disconnect the Neutrik cable so the Main Left/Right speakers are calibrated without the subs attached.
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 24, 2020 7:39:48 GMT -5
Being a Rel and Sumiko subs owner I've had mine connected each way/both ways/all ways. The LFE will take care of itself because Dirac will see the sub via the channel which supplies LFE and Bass Management duties if that's how you set it up. The High Level Neutrik connection requires more thought. Right now the I don't have the Neutrik cable connected. But when I do have it connected I choose to not have the sub active when calibrating the Main Left/Right speakers. This gets into timing issues that is better left to something like REW, which I've wandered into starting to use (wandering slowly). Now that Dirac is here I'm going to delve into it with more enthusiasm in the coming weeks. You can always see what happens and test the Main Left/Right speakers with the subs attached and see which you like better. No harm, no foul in doing so. I know I'll be doing that along the way. Bottom line, keep the LFE connected so the subs get some attention from Dirac. Disconnect the Neutrik cable so the Main Left/Right speakers are calibrated without the subs attached. In a processor where you can control the crossover and have Dirac do the calibration I really donβt see the need for RELβs high level connection. Actually itβs like having the fronts set to large and having enhanced bass activated with the selected HP filter (crossover point in RMC). Without the cable hassle, a little more control and possible PEQ and/or calibration. IMO RELβs high pass connection is only suitable when connected to a 2ch preamp without a separate subwoofer output. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 24, 2020 8:35:05 GMT -5
Being a Rel and Sumiko subs owner I've had mine connected each way/both ways/all ways. The LFE will take care of itself because Dirac will see the sub via the channel which supplies LFE and Bass Management duties if that's how you set it up. The High Level Neutrik connection requires more thought. Right now the I don't have the Neutrik cable connected. But when I do have it connected I choose to not have the sub active when calibrating the Main Left/Right speakers. This gets into timing issues that is better left to something like REW, which I've wandered into starting to use (wandering slowly). Now that Dirac is here I'm going to delve into it with more enthusiasm in the coming weeks. You can always see what happens and test the Main Left/Right speakers with the subs attached and see which you like better. No harm, no foul in doing so. I know I'll be doing that along the way. Bottom line, keep the LFE connected so the subs get some attention from Dirac. Disconnect the Neutrik cable so the Main Left/Right speakers are calibrated without the subs attached. The new processors have an interesting feature that comes into play here, especially if you have a multichannel system. Connect the REL as recommended, with the high level connection to the Center Subwoofer output. Configure the Center Sub as LFE. Configure the Left/Right Subwoofer outputs to None and the Left/Right Fronts to Large. The processor will send .1/LFE only to the subwoofer. It will send bass management for all speakers set to Small only to the Left/Right Fronts based on their respective crossovers. With the Left/Right Fronts also connected to the REL, all of the speakers will benefit from the subwoofery for their bass management. The only thing you would want to do and probably can't do is turn the REL crossover down to the low limit of your Left/Right Fronts .... because if you did this you would be rolling off the upper end of the LFE also. For example, your Fronts might like a crossover of 40Hz but the LFE really should go up to 80Hz. There is still the benefit that your small speakers get the presumably better bass of the Fronts. As for Dirac, this configuration works well. Dirac will handle the Center Sub output just fine and align it to the other speakers. It will also do its best to give you a smooth transition from the Left/Right Fronts to the sub. There isn't really a way to separately align the sub to the Fronts as connected for bass management while still using Dirac ... other than physically moving the sub until it time-aligns ... and that might put it in an undesirable position for other reasons. |
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Post by hytram on Jul 24, 2020 8:54:10 GMT -5
Now that things are starting to get real, I was reading through the forum posts about best practices and came up with a question that I probably should already know the answer to. I have a REL T/9i sub that's connected using the high-level input connected to my power amp as well as the RCA LFE connected to my XMC-2. This is REL's recommended configuration, and I have no complaints. When I go to run Dirac (specifically on front left and right channels), should I leave the REL's high-level input connected? Or should I disconnect it??? I run 2 REL T3's, although smaller have the same inputs/setup as the T9i you almost have to think of the set up on the Rel running both inputs from separate sources as 2 separate subs, that's what makes the Rels so versatile because you can run them both at once and control the volumes and xover points separately I run from the power amp to the high-level input, but in stereo, as I have 2 then run out of the centre sub in mono mode to a y-splitter to the .1 input of both subs via an Antimode 8033 cinema DSP box (this will probably go once I get Dirac) Preset 1 is set up for all speakers as large Preset 2 is set up with all speakers as small So when I play 2 ch in Preset 1, the subs work as an extension of the main speakers (Quad S5) vis the HI level, this is magic for well recorded music in Reference mode, I set the levels up using REW and a Mic, but it can be done by ear. In Ref Mode, there is no .1 output from the XMC-2 when I play 2 ch in Preset 2, all bass goes via the .1 input and I can give an extra kick in bottom end but upping the sub volume, I find I have to do this with average recorded rock music, really brings the kick drum and bass guitar to the surface, because the mains are set up as small, no signal goes to the Hi-level input. when in 5.1 mode (that's all I run ATM) different multi channel music and movies sound different and benefit from Preset 1 & 2. But in Preset 1, it's like I have 4 subs, a stereo pair for extension of the mains and then 2 .1 subs working in mono therefore, when I calibrate with Dirac, I will leave anything connected how it is (except removing the Antimode 8033 cinema DSP box) because my theory is, if you disconnect the Hi-Level inputs while testing, then you are not including that part of the sub in the calibration, its like removing 2 subs from my set up (or one in your case) but because you have 2 inputs and a whole lot of options for bass management in the XMC-2 , what actually works when doing the Dirac calibration is another thing! |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jul 24, 2020 9:52:51 GMT -5
In a processor where you can control the crossover and have Dirac do the calibration I really donβt see the need for RELβs high level connection. Actually itβs like having the fronts set to large and having enhanced bass activated with the selected HP filter (crossover point in RMC). Without the cable hassle, a little more control and possible PEQ and/or calibration. IMO RELβs high pass connection is only suitable when connected to a 2ch preamp without a separate subwoofer output. The Neutrik connection (High Speaker Level) from the Rel is used to help fill-in up to the point where a speaker is limited. In the case of my previous speakers that point was 43Hz. I tried bass management with them over the years and kept going back to setting them to Large and using the subs to fill-in the bottom end while connected using the Neutrik cable. When setup correctly you don't "hear" the subs, you just hear lower bass. The issue with Enhanced Bass is that it takes away the true multi-purpose aspect of having multiple connections and controls. I tried that once, just once. (Johnny Dangerously, Danny Vermin (Joe Piscopo)) The crossover in the D3P doesn't go low enough for me to be interested in its usage with my Main speakers. My current Main speakers measure down to 20Hz in my room so adding subs is just to smooth the peaks/nulls by locating the subs next to the opposing speaker - Left speaker connected to sub that is next to Right speaker, and using the Neutrik connection. I haven't yet delved into using miniDSP for this but plan to in the near future. I have had the subs connected using the Neutrik cable and there is a benefit to doing this, but the minimum crossover in the subs is still too high at 30Hz. After playing with Dirac for a while I'll get the miniDSP into action and figure out some stuff. I'm also interested in DLBC, but miniDSP might just do the trick. |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jul 24, 2020 10:02:55 GMT -5
therefore, when I calibrate with Dirac, I will leave anything connected how it is (except removing the Antimode 8033 cinema DSP box) because my theory is, if you disconnect the Hi-Level inputs while testing, then you are not including that part of the sub in the calibration, its like removing 2 subs from my set up (or one in your case) This is true, and it's a very good theory. You get the speaker/sub calibrated as one, which is great except it doesn't include the timing aspect of separate speaker boxes which is why I never tried it. I was concerned about messing with phasing of the Main speakers. Although I still might try this. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 24, 2020 10:31:22 GMT -5
therefore, when I calibrate with Dirac, I will leave anything connected how it is (except removing the Antimode 8033 cinema DSP box) because my theory is, if you disconnect the Hi-Level inputs while testing, then you are not including that part of the sub in the calibration, its like removing 2 subs from my set up (or one in your case) This is true, and it's a very good theory. You get the speaker/sub calibrated as one, which is great except it doesn't include the timing aspect of separate speaker boxes which is why I never tried it. I was concerned about messing with phasing of the Main speakers. Although I still might try this. Dirac has to keep their secret sauce secret. But they always have advertised that their impulse response correction aligns each speaker across the full frequency range to compensate for woofers and tweeters being misaligned or delayed. They make reference to "mixed phase" and "all pass" filters, and likely the latter is how they manipulate phase in specific frequency ranges to get the results that they get. So if you connect a sub to main speakers and the sub happens to not be collocated, it's still likely that as the Dirac processing just looks at it as one speaker it manages to do the alignment pretty well anyway. Okay, maybe Dirac gets you close, and you tweak the phase knob on the sub a little until the measured results look good from both a phase and amplitude perspective. |
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