ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 24, 2020 10:37:38 GMT -5
marcl Then I'll definitely give it a go! Good info. It'll be interesting to try with mixing the subs to see what's going on with the "mixed phase".
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Post by megash0n on Jul 24, 2020 14:00:18 GMT -5
I just attempted using MSO to get my pair of subs better before Dirac hits me tomorrow. While the process seems pretty straight forward, the measurements are far worse now than before. I have a couple 20 db swings. However, it does seem to sound better. That may be due to having my gains and trims too high prior. I may start all over tomorrow and see what I get.
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 24, 2020 14:07:17 GMT -5
In a processor where you can control the crossover and have Dirac do the calibration I really don’t see the need for REL’s high level connection. Actually it’s like having the fronts set to large and having enhanced bass activated with the selected HP filter (crossover point in RMC). Without the cable hassle, a little more control and possible PEQ and/or calibration. IMO REL’s high pass connection is only suitable when connected to a 2ch preamp without a separate subwoofer output. The Neutrik connection (High Speaker Level) from the Rel is used to help fill-in up to the point where a speaker is limited. In the case of my previous speakers that point was 43Hz. I tried bass management with them over the years and kept going back to setting them to Large and using the subs to fill-in the bottom end while connected using the Neutrik cable. When setup correctly you don't "hear" the subs, you just hear lower bass. The issue with Enhanced Bass is that it takes away the true multi-purpose aspect of having multiple connections and controls. I tried that once, just once. (Johnny Dangerously, Danny Vermin (Joe Piscopo)) The crossover in the D3P doesn't go low enough for me to be interested in its usage with my Main speakers. My current Main speakers measure down to 20Hz in my room so adding subs is just to smooth the peaks/nulls by locating the subs next to the opposing speaker - Left speaker connected to sub that is next to Right speaker, and using the Neutrik connection. I haven't yet delved into using miniDSP for this but plan to in the near future. I have had the subs connected using the Neutrik cable and there is a benefit to doing this, but the minimum crossover in the subs is still too high at 30Hz. After playing with Dirac for a while I'll get the miniDSP into action and figure out some stuff. I'm also interested in DLBC, but miniDSP might just do the trick. I used to hate using my subs for music. But after doing measurements and using the PEQ to almost getting a flat response from 18-120hz I love them. I had a HUGE bump in 20-25hz and a couple of ”smaller” ones at 40-45hz and around 75hz. The integration now is sooo nice.. With most music I don’t even hear the ”subs” only deeper bass. The rumbling is gone and so is the shaking of everything in the house. Even though it feels deeper and harder than ever before. But with control! My SVS Ultra Towers are speced at 28hz. I use them as large with enhanced bass on. I have fiddled around with different HP crossovers from 40-60hz.. I find that 50hz sounds best. It fills the bottom end which sometimes feels a little thin. SVS actually recommends running them as small with 50-60hz crossover in a multi channel setup. I have tried this as well. Sounds good also but some music, older rock, hard rock sounds really thin in the bottom end. The double bass round 35-60hz really helps.. At the moment I can’t use Reference Stereo because of a bug in RMC-1. There’s no sound coming from front wide bi-amp mode. It works fine in any other sound mode. It has been reported to Emotiva. In movies I run everything as small, at the moment with 90hz crossover all around. That’s about to change with Dirac I guess.  |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 24, 2020 14:17:41 GMT -5
At the moment I can’t use Reference Stereo because of a bug in RMC-1. There’s no sound coming from front wide bi-amp mode. It works fine in any other sound mode. It has been reported to Emotiva. I will find out about this one tomorrow. I'm getting some old speakers back in the game to use as Wides and I plan to use the Bi Amp mode for one of the setups, but as an either/or pair of speakers rather than top/bottom of the same speaker. |
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Post by bluescale on Jul 24, 2020 14:48:54 GMT -5
I just attempted using MSO to get my pair of subs better before Dirac hits me tomorrow. While the process seems pretty straight forward, the measurements are far worse now than before. I have a couple 20 db swings. However, it does seem to sound better. That may be due to having my gains and trims too high prior. I may start all over tomorrow and see what I get. I could never get MSO to work correctly. It always measured worse, and didn't sound quite right in my room. I didn't spend too much time with it, since my measurements without it were pretty damn good anyway. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 24, 2020 15:07:42 GMT -5
I just attempted using MSO to get my pair of subs better before Dirac hits me tomorrow. While the process seems pretty straight forward, the measurements are far worse now than before. I have a couple 20 db swings. However, it does seem to sound better. That may be due to having my gains and trims too high prior. I may start all over tomorrow and see what I get. I could never get MSO to work correctly. It always measured worse, and didn't sound quite right in my room. I didn't spend too much time with it, since my measurements without it were pretty damn good anyway. I may try again with only using the subs instead of using Mains also. And then use rew alignment tool to align the subs to the mains. Or, I may say the hell with it and use rew to get all the subs aligned and adjusted as one virtual sub, then use the alignment tool to align with the mains. I'm still not sure if I need to adjust my 70hz crossover. I need to look at that as well. My mains are T1s. My issue is that my LCR are sitting closer to the middle of my room while the subs are closer to the front wall. Given the LCR placement, I don't get the best low end response below 60-80 hz. Or, a better way to put it is that I activate different room modes in that location, so I need to subs to take over a bit sooner rather than later. At least I think. 😂😂😂 |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2020 17:27:32 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree.... Things get very complicated when you have multiple connections and multiple devices trying to share the bass management responsibilities.
REL makes really nice subwoofers... And that high-level option is handy if you're using a stereo setup that doesn't have a dedicated subwoofer output... But I am not at all convinced that it's justified if your system DOES have a real subwoofer output and real bass management...
(I just can;t see how it could work better than real bass management.)
I would definitely just go with a single line level subwoofer connection...
Being a Rel and Sumiko subs owner I've had mine connected each way/both ways/all ways. The LFE will take care of itself because Dirac will see the sub via the channel which supplies LFE and Bass Management duties if that's how you set it up. The High Level Neutrik connection requires more thought. Right now the I don't have the Neutrik cable connected. But when I do have it connected I choose to not have the sub active when calibrating the Main Left/Right speakers. This gets into timing issues that is better left to something like REW, which I've wandered into starting to use (wandering slowly). Now that Dirac is here I'm going to delve into it with more enthusiasm in the coming weeks. You can always see what happens and test the Main Left/Right speakers with the subs attached and see which you like better. No harm, no foul in doing so. I know I'll be doing that along the way. Bottom line, keep the LFE connected so the subs get some attention from Dirac. Disconnect the Neutrik cable so the Main Left/Right speakers are calibrated without the subs attached. In a processor where you can control the crossover and have Dirac do the calibration I really don’t see the need for REL’s high level connection. Actually it’s like having the fronts set to large and having enhanced bass activated with the selected HP filter (crossover point in RMC). Without the cable hassle, a little more control and possible PEQ and/or calibration. IMO REL’s high pass connection is only suitable when connected to a 2ch preamp without a separate subwoofer output. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2020 17:32:06 GMT -5
A lot of it just depends on what you like and what you're used to.
The way I learned it was that a subwoofer should enable the music to sound solid... but should NOT be specifically audible.
"If it's set correctly you shouldn't even be able to tell that you have a sub..." "But, if you turn the sub off, you should notice that something's missing".
Most people will be surprised at how much lower frequency boost they will prefer when dialing in their house curve. I know I sure was - to the tune of about 12db under 200Hz. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2020 17:58:00 GMT -5
There's two ways of looking at that - and I'm not taking a stand on either. You can actually align multiple subs pretty well by using the phase controls on the subs and a test tone at the crossover frequency.
And, while DLBC may be able to do it a bit better, there may be a question of how much better. And nothing is going to enable you to get them all perfectly in phase at more than one spot in the room anyway. (You still have X number of point sources... and all you can do is to delay each by a precisely calculated amount at each frequency.)
There's also a bit of math that seems to be escaping people... and it concerns "aligning things to each other". If you cut two pieces of wood to each be exactly one foot long you don't need to compare them to each other to know that they're the same length. Likewise, if you align two speakers very accurately separately, you don't need to go back and align them "to each other". (You can simply mathematically add the results of their individual measurements.)
And, yes, this will miss some rather complex interactions with the room and such...
But, by taking a few more sets of measurements with them as a pair, you're still only moving one degree closer to a complete and accurate approximation... (You're adding a few more data points to your model... which should hopefully serve to make it better... but you are not magically making it perfect.)
There's no such thing as magic...
Just seen how much DLBC costs. US$349 for single sub! Daylight robbery! I don't expect this to happen, but I think Dirac would do well to offer a 30 day trial for DLBC. There's a lot more to it than what it does specifically to the one sub. There are crossover settings and the fact that they also align phase between pairs of other speakers. This is significant ... align phase between your left/right fronts, left/right surrounds, etc. And this (presumably positively) affects how the other speakers integrate with the subs and each other at the crossover points. I think it's pretty hard to judge without trying whether it's worth it for a single sub. It could be the single sub gets you the most bang for the buck ... or that it's not worth doing unless you have at least two subs. We'll probably have to rely on reviews and forums from the other devices that have it now, then make a call if/when it becomes an option for Emotiva. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 24, 2020 19:11:09 GMT -5
There's two ways of looking at that - and I'm not taking a stand on either. You can actually align multiple subs pretty well by using the phase controls on the subs and a test tone at the crossover frequency.
And, while DLBC may be able to do it a bit better, there may be a question of how much better. And nothing is going to enable you to get them all perfectly in phase at more than one spot in the room anyway. (You still have X number of point sources... and all you can do is to delay each by a precisely calculated amount at each frequency.)
There's also a bit of math that seems to be escaping people... and it concerns "aligning things to each other". If you cut two pieces of wood to each be exactly one foot long you don't need to compare them to each other to know that they're the same length. Likewise, if you align two speakers very accurately separately, you don't need to go back and align them "to each other". (You can simply mathematically add the results of their individual measurements.)
And, yes, this will miss some rather complex interactions with the room and such...
But, by taking a few more sets of measurements with them as a pair, you're still only moving one degree closer to a complete and accurate approximation... (You're adding a few more data points to your model... which should hopefully serve to make it better... but you are not magically making it perfect.)
There's no such thing as magic...
I don't expect this to happen, but I think Dirac would do well to offer a 30 day trial for DLBC. There's a lot more to it than what it does specifically to the one sub. There are crossover settings and the fact that they also align phase between pairs of other speakers. This is significant ... align phase between your left/right fronts, left/right surrounds, etc. And this (presumably positively) affects how the other speakers integrate with the subs and each other at the crossover points. I think it's pretty hard to judge without trying whether it's worth it for a single sub. It could be the single sub gets you the most bang for the buck ... or that it's not worth doing unless you have at least two subs. We'll probably have to rely on reviews and forums from the other devices that have it now, then make a call if/when it becomes an option for Emotiva. I want to make sure I understand your assertion correctly. We are comparing the average Joe using his ears at the crossover point, with multiple subs in question, by adjusting a phase dial on a sub to an industry leading automated process purpose built for this. What happens when Joe picks a crossover point that happens to hit a room mode? That was pretty much rhetorical. I'm just not sure we've all read the same information on this product, or any other product designed to accomplish this goal with data instead of an ear. It's kinda like saying DTS Neural:X is working properly just because your DSP design happens to sound better than anything most have heard before. It doesn't mean it is working properly. You just think it sounds good. Which, is fine. I like a little more fact that faith in my diet. |
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hi
Minor Hero
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Post by hi on Jul 24, 2020 20:00:15 GMT -5
I think I have spent 2 - 3 evenings measuring and testing until I have achieved a really good result with MSO. Currently there are 3 double 15" W dipoles in use. So it is possible that my experience may differ. Anyway, I never managed to get the delay and phase to match the other speakers (with MSO). Maybe because of the run time of the dsp. I got the best results by rotating the phase of the (aligned) subs by 180° and adjusting the delay to get the maximum cancellation at the transition frequency. Then reset the phase of the subs and make fine adjustments. I could never get MSO to work correctly. It always measured worse, and didn't sound quite right in my room. I didn't spend too much time with it, since my measurements without it were pretty damn good anyway. I may try again with only using the subs instead of using Mains also. And then use rew alignment tool to align the subs to the mains. Or, I may say the hell with it and use rew to get all the subs aligned and adjusted as one virtual sub, then use the alignment tool to align with the mains. I'm still not sure if I need to adjust my 70hz crossover. I need to look at that as well. My mains are T1s. My issue is that my LCR are sitting closer to the middle of my room while the subs are closer to the front wall. Given the LCR placement, I don't get the best low end response below 60-80 hz. Or, a better way to put it is that I activate different room modes in that location, so I need to subs to take over a bit sooner rather than later. At least I think. 😂😂😂 |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 24, 2020 20:06:54 GMT -5
I think I have spent 2 - 3 evenings measuring and testing until I have achieved a really good result with MSO. Currently there are 3 double 15" H dipoles in use. So it is possible that my experience may differ. Anyway, I never managed to get the delay and phase to match the other speakers (with MSO). Maybe because of the run time of the dsp. I got the best results by rotating the phase of the (aligned) subs by 180° and adjusting the delay to get the maximum cancellation at the transition frequency. Then reset the phase of the subs and make fine adjustments. I may try again with only using the subs instead of using Mains also. And then use rew alignment tool to align the subs to the mains. Or, I may say the hell with it and use rew to get all the subs aligned and adjusted as one virtual sub, then use the alignment tool to align with the mains. I'm still not sure if I need to adjust my 70hz crossover. I need to look at that as well. My mains are T1s. My issue is that my LCR are sitting closer to the middle of my room while the subs are closer to the front wall. Given the LCR placement, I don't get the best low end response below 60-80 hz. Or, a better way to put it is that I activate different room modes in that location, so I need to subs to take over a bit sooner rather than later. At least I think. 😂😂😂 I just read a much shorter set of instructions that seem more clear. Their tutorial is just too lengthy. There's a good walk through on MiniDSPs website I will try tomorrow. I can already see where I made a couple of mistakes. Thank you for your message. |
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Post by thezone on Jul 24, 2020 20:29:46 GMT -5
I think we just overcomplicate things sometimes - less is more imo.
Anyway while were on the "Sub"ject : )
Now that the XMC-2/RMC has the ability to route only the LFE track to a particular sub I have a quick question.
If you have your speakers set to small with the x-over in the XMC-2 set to say 90hz, this x-over only redirects bass from any speaker set to small to the other mono subs and not the LFE, so what happens to the frequencies of the LFE track above that x-over point and below the 120hz LFE cut off? According to the manual they are still only directed to the LFE sub so I can only assume this means that you can not override the industry standard 120hz x-over for subs and redirect that to the mains?
Therefore, for the sub connected to LFE channel, if you set the physical LPF on that sub to 90hz, you just miss out on anything above that in the LFE track as it wont get redirected to the bass management subs by the XMC-2. Does this sound correct?
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jul 24, 2020 21:04:19 GMT -5
But I am not at all convinced that it's justified if your system DOES have a real subwoofer output and real bass management...
(I just can;t see how it could work better than real bass management.)
I would definitely just go with a single line level subwoofer connection... I would agree with you if that bass management would allow for a crossover point as low as I want to go. 40Hz is too high for my speaker's woofers that have built-in management. |
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Post by Mikomill on Jul 24, 2020 21:24:46 GMT -5
There's two ways of looking at that - and I'm not taking a stand on either.
I want to make sure I understand your assertion correctly. We are comparing the average Joe using his ears at the crossover point, with multiple subs in question, by adjusting a phase dial on a sub to an industry leading automated process purpose built for this. What happens when Joe picks a crossover point that happens to hit a room mode? That was pretty much rhetorical. I'm just not sure we've all read the same information on this product, or any other product designed to accomplish this goal with data instead of an ear. It's kinda like saying DTS Neural:X is working properly just because your DSP design happens to sound better than anything most have heard before. It doesn't mean it is working properly. You just think it sounds good. Which, is fine...... |
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Post by kahodges1721 on Jul 24, 2020 22:03:06 GMT -5
There seems to be a lot of interest and questions surrounding multiple sub alignment in REW as well as the integration between mains and LFE. If you have a minidsp I will be happy to help walk anyone through this as this is something I’m very familiar with and can help you integrate properly. The biggest thing that I see that most people are missing is not to change the filter on the sub in Dirac but instead adjust the cumulative delay in the minidsp to smooth the crossover.
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Post by marcl on Jul 25, 2020 3:10:09 GMT -5
I think we just overcomplicate things sometimes - less is more imo. Anyway while were on the "Sub"ject : ) Now that the XMC-2/RMC has the ability to route only the LFE track to a particular sub I have a quick question. If you have your speakers set to small with the x-over in the XMC-2 set to say 90hz, this x-over only redirects bass from any speaker set to small to the other mono subs and not the LFE, so what happens to the frequencies of the LFE track above that x-over point and below the 120hz LFE cut off? According to the manual they are still only directed to the LFE sub so I can only assume this means that you can not override the industry standard 120hz x-over for subs and redirect that to the mains? Therefore, for the sub connected to LFE channel, if you set the physical LPF on that sub to 90hz, you just miss out on anything above that in the LFE track as it wont get redirected to the bass management subs by the XMC-2. Does this sound correct? To your specific question about setting the physical LPF on a sub ... that will never affect any redirection of signal in the processor. Once you set that LPF on the sub, anything above that frequency is rolled off. See some additional info in my next post. I think it has a bearing on what you're trying to do. I've been working on finding a configuration where LFE is handled completely separately from bass management with the intent that it would be better to have large speakers handle the bulk of bass management and only cross to subs at a relatively low frequency ... like 40-50Hz or lower. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 25, 2020 3:18:11 GMT -5
Specific scenarios using the center sub=LFE configuration. I did a lot of testing in this area with 1.10. I'm not done testing 2.0, but based on 1.10 .... :
- All speakers set to small with a crossover configured
- Center sub set to LFE, it will respond up to 100Hz followed by the typical rolloff which I believe is 12db/octave above 100Hz. No bass management (low frequencies from small speakers) goes to the center sub, and their crossovers have no effect on the center sub. This assumes center sub physical crossover on the sub is set to max (or none, if available)
- If you have lef/right subs configured (two subs set to Dual Mono, or one sub connected to the left sub only and set to Mono), then left/right sub(s) will only get bass management and no LFE. Assuming the crossover knob on your sub(s) is set to max/none, the response of left/right sub output will go up to whatever the sub can output. I have tested that output up as high as 200Hz. It does not roll off above 100Hz like the LFE output does.
- Everything below the crossovers set for your small speakers ONLY goes to the left/right subs .... the center sub does not get the bass management output, nor does the left/right sub(s) get LFE. They are independent.
- If you adjust the physical crossover knob on any of your subs, that will determine the upper response limit of that sub ... irrespective of any settings on the processor.
Variations on this scenario with center sub as LFE, and at least one left/right sub .....
- If front speakers are set to large, they get no LFE and no bass management from other speakers and none of the left/right front signal goes to any sub
- If front speakers are set to large and Enhanced Bass is selected, they run full range AND low frequencies below the crossover point chosen in their small setting go to the left/right sub(s) only (not to center sub)
Variation on this scenario if you have center sub as LFE, and left/right subs set to None ....
- If front speakers are set to large, bass management goes to front speakers ... no bass management goes to center sub
- Enhanced Bass option is not available. Front speakers run full range
- In this scenario if ALL speakers are set to small, everything below the crossovers is lost. No bass management goes to any speaker, nor does it go to the center sub
NOW I HAVE A QUESTION: In all of these scenarios, where is PEQ (and presumably Dirac) applied with respect to bass management?
For example:
Preset 1 for movies - center sub=LFE; left/right sub(s)=None; front speakers=Large: .1/LFE goes only to center sub and bass management goes to front speakers. Is the PEQ of the full range front speakers applied to the bass management content of the speakers configured as small?
Preset 2 for music - center sub=None; left/right sub(s)=None; front speakers=Large: for multichannel music, .1 and bass management go to the front speakers. Is the PEQ of the full range front speakers applied to the .1 channel content and the bass management content of the speakers configured as small?
This scenario with center sub used only for movie LFE and with large front speakers always handling bass management could be one where the front channels also go to a sub with high level inputs and its own crossover, as has been discussed with the REL example in earlier posts. You would apply PEQ to the integrated output of the fronts and their directly-connected subs. And you would expect the bass managed content of small speakers playing to the fronts and their subs to reflect the PEQ of the fronts and their subs below the crossover point.
***** My initial testing indicates that with NO subwoofers and with front speakers set to Large, PEQ is not being applied to the bass-managed content of small speakers!! What appears to be happening is that PEQ is applied to the small speakers in their range, and bass management is redirected to the large front speakers ... but no PEQ is applied below the crossover point!!
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pine
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by pine on Jul 25, 2020 9:14:38 GMT -5
First time caller, longtime listener. Received my EDNIB earlier this week only a few days after registering my RMC-1 MAC address on 7/20. For those who are interested, I was initially on the RMC-1 pre-release list in November 2018, but ended up canceling the order because of all of the reported issues with the initial firmware (probably a good decision in retrospect). I ended up reordering in July 2019 and went through the various firmware trials (1.7 was the first decent upgrade for me, 1.8 (or was it 1.9?) was awful and I went back to 1.7. Firmware v1.10 was a huge improvement and now 2.0 is a bit of a step backwards (volume input lagging and a couple of first time freezes), but usable so far). Anyway, I immediately installed the EDNIB to an already existing 8 port switch to which the RMC-1 is also attached, downloaded the software and registered a Dirac account. To make a long story short, the Dirac app will not see your RMC-1 if you have not gone into speaker presets and activated Dirac. Also, I was trying to use my laptop over wifi, but the Dirac app could not find my RMC-1 maybe because of the Orbi mesh network. I eventually found my thunderbolt to ethernet adapter and plugged into the same 8 port switch. Despite there being a license section in the Dirac account, no separate license is needed since your registration is locked to your unit's MAC address. All is showing up in the Dirac app and ready to go, except for finding time to run through the sweeps in a quiet house. Good luck to all!
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Post by marcl on Jul 25, 2020 10:46:14 GMT -5
PEQ/Dirac for LFE/Bass Management with all subs=None and Fronts=Large
I just confirmed by resetting all Filters and re-measuring LCR and LFE with all subs set to None. Bass management sends the low frequencies from the small center to the large left/right fronts. I created full range PEQ filters for the center and loaded just that one channel's filters. No PEQ is applied below the crossover frequency (which I would expect). Then, I created full range PEQ filters for the left and right channels and loaded those. When I measure the left and right, their PEQ filters are applied. But when I re-measure the center, once again there is no PEQ applied below the crossover. So then I measured the LFE. Recall that all subs are set to None, so LFE should go only to the large left/right fronts. No PEQ was applied to the LFE.
This is a serious problem for anyone who wants to use PEQ but does not have a sub, or chooses to not use a sub sometimes (i.e. for music). And I suspect this issue will be the case with Dirac also.
Potentially ..... if you don't use a sub, you get no PEQ or Dirac correction below the crossover for small speakers or for LFE?
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