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Post by jeffrey40sw on Oct 8, 2021 9:15:28 GMT -5
I would like to try those Storm Audio dirac theater curves for movies but it looks like only their customers can download them. Does anyone know where they can be downloaded or does somebody else have similar curves? I think it’s kinda selfish for an audio company to keep that kind of stuff only for their customers. Not a good business model in my opinion. We are all in this stuff together regardless of what brands we own. I’ve never kept audio knowledge from someone based on what brands they owned. I’ve built systems, subs and speakers for all types of budgets and always shared what I have learned in my 40+ years of this hobby.
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Post by ElectricKoolAid on Oct 12, 2021 15:48:32 GMT -5
I would like to try those Storm Audio dirac theater curves for movies but it looks like only their customers can download them. Does anyone know where they can be downloaded or does somebody else have similar curves? I think it’s kinda selfish for an audio company to keep that kind of stuff only for their customers. Not a good business model in my opinion. We are all in this stuff together regardless of what brands we own. I’ve never kept audio knowledge from someone based on what brands they owned. I’ve built systems, subs and speakers for all types of budgets and always shared what I have learned in my 40+ years of this hobby. Have you tried the Harman curves? I don't know what the difference is between those and the Storm ones but figured I'd mention them: mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2/ |
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Post by leonski on Oct 12, 2021 17:04:26 GMT -5
I would like to try those Storm Audio dirac theater curves for movies but it looks like only their customers can download them. Does anyone know where they can be downloaded or does somebody else have similar curves? I think it’s kinda selfish for an audio company to keep that kind of stuff only for their customers. Not a good business model in my opinion. We are all in this stuff together regardless of what brands we own. I’ve never kept audio knowledge from someone based on what brands they owned. I’ve built systems, subs and speakers for all types of budgets and always shared what I have learned in my 40+ years of this hobby. What do those curves buy you? At least what they add that a GOOD run of DIRAC won't do for you? I don't know from storm, but movie houses? Not the best sound.......Loud, for sure...Great crashes / explosions, but for something like music? Not so much. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Oct 12, 2021 17:31:17 GMT -5
I would like to try those Storm Audio dirac theater curves for movies but it looks like only their customers can download them. Does anyone know where they can be downloaded or does somebody else have similar curves? I think it’s kinda selfish for an audio company to keep that kind of stuff only for their customers. Not a good business model in my opinion. We are all in this stuff together regardless of what brands we own. I’ve never kept audio knowledge from someone based on what brands they owned. I’ve built systems, subs and speakers for all types of budgets and always shared what I have learned in my 40+ years of this hobby. What do those curves buy you? At least what they add that a GOOD run of DIRAC won't do for you? I don't know from storm, but movie houses? Not the best sound.......Loud, for sure...Great crashes / explosions, but for something like music? Not so much. What's your point? He mentioned specifically wanting to use them for movies. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 12, 2021 22:32:41 GMT -5
My point is those curves were developed in a certain enviroment UNLIKELY to match the listening space of the user.......The room OR speakers......
The only thing is that with movie sound? Nobody knows what any of the effects actually sound like, so your interpretation is as good as any other....
For music? Hopefully, you have some idea of what live music....from rock band to string quartet to orchastra and chorus.....actually DO sound like
I'd suspect a GOOD clean run of DIRAC made by a good operator under repeatable conditions will give a VERY good result.....
I see STORM supports some HUGE number of channels......I'd love to see that in a real rom that MOST persons have......But 24 channels in a huge room?
Sure. And at an average cost of even a very mosdest 300$ per speaker? That's ove 7000$ worth of speaker alone....add subs and 'better for certiain channels.
Above all? Have FUN!
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Post by drabbs on Oct 12, 2021 23:18:53 GMT -5
Not a good business model in my opinion. It's a perfectly understandable business model in my opinion. Storm Audio develop custom curves to be overlaid on a Dirac calibration for THEIR CUSTOMERS, why would they give them to others who have not paid for their products?  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 13, 2021 13:15:38 GMT -5
I would like to try those Storm Audio dirac theater curves for movies but it looks like only their customers can download them. Does anyone know where they can be downloaded or does somebody else have similar curves? I think it’s kinda selfish for an audio company to keep that kind of stuff only for their customers. Not a good business model in my opinion. We are all in this stuff together regardless of what brands we own. I’ve never kept audio knowledge from someone based on what brands they owned. I’ve built systems, subs and speakers for all types of budgets and always shared what I have learned in my 40+ years of this hobby. What do those curves buy you? At least what they add that a GOOD run of DIRAC won't do for you? I don't know from storm, but movie houses? Not the best sound.......Loud, for sure...Great crashes / explosions, but for something like music? Not so much. I was lucky enough to hear Giles Martin’s Atmos mix of “Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” at the AMC Dolby Theatre in Santa Monica. It played for one performance at selected theatres around the country on the 50th anniversary of its release. It sounded amazing. So I think movie houses can sound good for music, but that’s not their forte. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 14, 2021 23:29:46 GMT -5
What do those curves buy you? At least what they add that a GOOD run of DIRAC won't do for you? I don't know from storm, but movie houses? Not the best sound.......Loud, for sure...Great crashes / explosions, but for something like music? Not so much. I was lucky enough to hear Giles Martin’s Atmos mix of “Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” at the AMC Dolby Theatre in Santa Monica. It played for one performance at selected theatres around the country on the 50th anniversary of its release. It sounded amazing. So I think movie houses can sound good for music, but that’s not their forte. Is the curve applied BEFORE running dirac? Or after? It would seem a properly done theater would have all the gear installed THAN run a sound check.....similar to DIRAC to do the final speaker curves / setup..... I don't understand how applying a curve generated by someone else helps YOU in YOUR room.....Virtually everything is different! HT May, in the long run, be good for movie houses. More people might have a better idea of good sound.....I'll bet the AMC /Santa Monica has good sound. Down here in SD County? I wouldn't know where to go. for BEST sound...... |
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Post by geebo on Oct 14, 2021 23:35:13 GMT -5
I was lucky enough to hear Giles Martin’s Atmos mix of “Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” at the AMC Dolby Theatre in Santa Monica. It played for one performance at selected theatres around the country on the 50th anniversary of its release. It sounded amazing. So I think movie houses can sound good for music, but that’s not their forte. Is the curve applied BEFORE running dirac? Or after? It would seem a properly done theater would have all the gear installed THAN run a sound check.....similar to DIRAC to do the final speaker curves / setup..... I don't understand how applying a curve generated by someone else helps YOU in YOUR room.....Virtually everything is different! HT May, in the long run, be good for movie houses. More people might have a better idea of good sound.....I'll bet the AMC /Santa Monica has good sound. Down here in SD County? I wouldn't know where to go. for BEST sound...... It's a "house" curve that is applied during the Dirac filter creation. It's nothing more than a preference to a flat response. Something like a 4dB boost in the bass below 100Hz for example. A gentle roll off of 3dB above 15kHz if that's your preference. A totally flat response usually doesn't sound very good in my experience. They're called target curves. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 15, 2021 0:27:33 GMT -5
Terrific Answer....and thanks.
Same goes with VIDEO? Anywhere here ever SEE a monitor calibrated to ISF standards and BY a real ISF guy? Might cost a couple hundred or more for ths 'housecall'.
I've know a couple persons with such cals, at least ONE of which later discarded it for his own setup.
Me? At least on my computer, I was always more concerned with getting PRINTER output (CMYK) to match the Monitor.....(RGB) which is quite a trick.
I got absolutely LUCKY and for the longest time, using an Epson printer with Gutenprint drivers, had a near-perfect match. When I would use the 'Profille' from the local
printer? That match extended to whatever prints I had THEM do for me.......
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Post by jbrunwa on Oct 17, 2021 18:25:03 GMT -5
After saving a Dirac filter, I used REW to measure the frequency response of the speakers. I was surprised when the center channel played 2 tones simultaneously. It sounded almost like descending frequency sweep played simultaneously with the normal sweep or maybe a self oscillating filter. This occurred only with the center channel. Restarting the computer did not clear up the issue. Cycling the power on the XMC-2 cleared the issue, so I assume it was caused by the XMC-2. Unfortunately I did not have the presence of mind to record the issue.
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ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Oct 17, 2021 22:07:46 GMT -5
After saving a Dirac filter, I used REW to measure the frequency response of the speakers. I was surprised when the center channel played 2 tones simultaneously. It sounded almost like descending frequency sweep played simultaneously with the normal sweep or maybe a self oscillating filter. This occurred only with the center channel. Restarting the computer did not clear up the issue. Cycling the power on the XMC-2 cleared the issue, so I assume it was caused by the XMC-2. Unfortunately I did not have the presence of mind to record the issue. This has happened to me and others. Usually, rebooting the Mac is what clears it for me. This happens mostly when running Dirac and leaving REW open and it gets "stale". Rarely will rebooting the Mac not fix this and requires a reboot of the processor as well. The weird thing is that it will just affect one or two channels and the others are ok. This has not happened yet with Dirac 13.1.2, but has with most of the previous Dirac versions and all versions of REW I've used since about a year ago. |
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Post by jbrunwa on Oct 18, 2021 0:26:21 GMT -5
After saving a Dirac filter, I used REW to measure the frequency response of the speakers. I was surprised when the center channel played 2 tones simultaneously. It sounded almost like descending frequency sweep played simultaneously with the normal sweep or maybe a self oscillating filter. This occurred only with the center channel. Restarting the computer did not clear up the issue. Cycling the power on the XMC-2 cleared the issue, so I assume it was caused by the XMC-2. Unfortunately I did not have the presence of mind to record the issue. This has happened to me and others. Usually, rebooting the Mac is what clears it for me. This happens mostly when running Dirac and leaving REW open and it gets "stale". Rarely will rebooting the Mac won't fix this and requires a reboot of the processor as well. The weird thing is that it will just affect one or two channels and the others are ok. This has not happened yet with Dirac 13.1.2, but has with most of the previous versions and all versions of REW I've used since about a year ago. Thanks, that explains it |
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Post by hsamwel on Oct 23, 2021 15:14:07 GMT -5
Terrific Answer....and thanks. Same goes with VIDEO? Anywhere here ever SEE a monitor calibrated to ISF standards and BY a real ISF guy? Might cost a couple hundred or more for ths 'housecall'. I've know a couple persons with such cals, at least ONE of which later discarded it for his own setup. Me? At least on my computer, I was always more concerned with getting PRINTER output (CMYK) to match the Monitor.....(RGB) which is quite a trick. I got absolutely LUCKY and for the longest time, using an Epson printer with Gutenprint drivers, had a near-perfect match. When I would use the 'Profille' from the local printer? That match extended to whatever prints I had THEM do for me....... Video and sound is not the same.. People actually do have different ears and have different sound preferences because of this. People that discard a ISF calibrated setup for their ”own” prefered setup either have very bad eyes or doesn’t want the REAL world colors.. The thing is that the calibration doesn’t only fix the colors but also the luminance of the colors. There’s no such thing as a ”prefered” video setting really. Either it’s correct or it’s not. Sound on the other hand is processed by the brain in a different way. That’s why you hear differently depending on the mood you’re in. That’s why most people prefer a higher cost/better brand/better looking audio gear. Not because they actually sound better but because the pleasure center in the brain tells you it sounds better.. The same goes for all the cables. That’s why NO ONE can tell the difference between any cable in a blind test. Hardware on the otherhand can have differences, sometimes so small that they need a very trained ear to hear. Still most would fail a real blind test. Speakers and the room does most for the sound. That’s one of the reasons Diracs house curve can make a huge difference for the better, and for worse in some cases. What Dirac does with <200hz with only software is pure magic really IMO. Several days work of placing the sub(s) correctly, fixing the correct delay, setting the phase, setting the levels and doing a frequency PEQ Dirac mostly fixes in one calibration. Edit: The human hearing is also worse in the lower and higher frequencies. That’s why a boost of 4-6db in the bass region and a small drop of 2-3db in the upper mids upto 20k is prefered by most. This makes the frequencies sound the same volume. This of course depends on the sound level you listen to. The higher you listen the better a flatter curve sounds. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 24, 2021 0:28:57 GMT -5
People' EYES vary a lot, too. 8% of european descended males have some form of color blindness in the red /green. I myself have a problem in the common green range.....though otherwise my vision is quite good and photos I color correct are well regarded. If someone doesnt' LIKE an ISF Calibration? Sure....might be a vision defect of some sort OR they simply value something else in an image. Go to the TV store and LOOK how awful most of the displays look. Over Bright? Over Saturated? Cartoonish edge sharpness? Sound is the same. People see differently. They hear differently, too. BUT flat is flat and and ISF Calibration can be taken as the same as a good run for flat response. Thought with DIRAC, the way I'm coming to understand it you add a curve of some sort to modify the response. I'm still waiting for someone to offer up a demo so I can 'hear it in action'..... Peoples sound AND vision preferences are Learned and can be 'educated'. I've known ONE recording engineer over the years and he was quite good and could hear 'into' a song and make it better.... I myself heard panel speakers 45 years ago and they STILL blow me away. Though I've been to shows and well-done homes and always find something I like to listen to..... I'm linking the WIKI article on Equal Loudness Curves.....where the Fletcher Munson data is listed down the article a little...... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contourVideo / vision VS Audio / Hearing is not a 'perfect' / 100% correlation but close enough for government work. I don't know about YOU, but good photography activeates MY brain's pleasure center, too...... I HEAR you though about the look / sound / 'feeling' connection. For example? I'm not a big fan of the Mac house sound. But OH! I love that presentation..... |
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Post by hsamwel on Oct 24, 2021 7:22:26 GMT -5
People' EYES vary a lot, too. 8% of european descended males have some form of color blindness in the red /green. I myself have a problem in the common green range.....though otherwise my vision is quite good and photos I color correct are well regarded. If someone doesnt' LIKE an ISF Calibration? Sure....might be a vision defect of some sort OR they simply value something else in an image. Go to the TV store and LOOK how awful most of the displays look. Over Bright? Over Saturated? Cartoonish edge sharpness? Sound is the same. People see differently. They hear differently, too. BUT flat is flat and and ISF Calibration can be taken as the same as a good run for flat response. Thought with DIRAC, the way I'm coming to understand it you add a curve of some sort to modify the response. I'm still waiting for someone to offer up a demo so I can 'hear it in action'..... Peoples sound AND vision preferences are Learned and can be 'educated'. I've known ONE recording engineer over the years and he was quite good and could hear 'into' a song and make it better.... I myself heard panel speakers 45 years ago and they STILL blow me away. Though I've been to shows and well-done homes and always find something I like to listen to..... I'm linking the WIKI article on Equal Loudness Curves.....where the Fletcher Munson data is listed down the article a little...... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contourVideo / vision VS Audio / Hearing is not a 'perfect' / 100% correlation but close enough for government work. I don't know about YOU, but good photography activeates MY brain's pleasure center, too...... I HEAR you though about the look / sound / 'feeling' connection. For example? I'm not a big fan of the Mac house sound. But OH! I love that presentation..... Yes, but my comment meant people with normal eyesight. If people have a some kind of defect like color blindness they OF COURSE need some special setting and are in no need for an ISF calibration in the first place. It’s exactly the Equal Loudness Curve I’m talking about. We hear differently depending on volume. We hear best in the midrange were we need it the most for speech and such. In low volumes we actually need to boost the treble as well. But when raising the volume this this can cause discomfort. Bass needs to be VERY high above the midrange to cause discomfort. This is why some use the Harman 10db curve. When there’s no big peaks or dips left the bass also sounds smoother even if you raise well above equal loudness level. But IMO the sweetspot is somewhere between 4-6db. Lower for music and higher for movies. But if I raise my music volume very high for testing purpose I often feel my Harman 4db is too much for many recent recordings. Pre ’90s music you can mostly have a Harman 6db for at any volume. Especially rock music without the bass sounding over powering. I listen to music at about -35db +/- 4db.. Seldom higher than -35db though. I have 88db sensitive speakers. 29db gain amplifier. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 24, 2021 20:54:58 GMT -5
 It is LEARNED. I see lots of photography from 'amateurs' or just Cell Phone people that obviously needs help...... And again? HEARING and LISTENING are 2 different activities. Hearing my be straight physiology. Sound goes in 'here' and stimulates various parts of the hearing aparatus....than gets to the LISTENING part which is a function of Brain and learning.... Everyone is given roughly (with exception of some hearing OR vision problems) essentially the SAME EQUIPMENT.....So why all the discussion If you don't assume a huge component of Learning is involved. If everyone heard 'the same'......those curves would matter maybe MORE. But I know that in a VERY quiet room at maybe 0400 with nothing in the house moving......I can FACE my Magnepans at one another maybe 3 feet apart and I can LIE DOWN between 'em......with the level being too quiet to hear more than 20 feet away or thru a closed bedroom door. You DO give me an idea, though. I believe in the curves. The old-school LOUDNESS control on stereos of decades ago would bump the bass and treble. Some fixed amount. What would happen IF you added a similar bump to your setup when isting VERY late at night in a very quiet house? Than reduce the bump later....when you turn the level UP some for more normal listening...... And if your point is No Such curves for the EYES? Also true. But I do a LOT of night photography and see changes in sensitivity based on overall scene brightness. The Same was true in the OLD Days of FILM with something called reciprocity failure....where the color layers of the film would begin responding differently at VERY long exposure times......Or in some cases special film I'd use for weddings was intended for FLASH exposure only. I'm attaching a shot taken at night in VEGAS......from which I took out all the color information.....They call it 'desaturate' which is different than using B&W films which a very different spectral sensitivity........ Thanks for your help......Good Stuff..... |
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Post by jbrunwa on Oct 25, 2021 14:14:47 GMT -5
It is my understanding that for the XMC/RMC platform:
1. Emotiva has always planned to DLBC-enable the platform
2. Dirac must create and provide DLBC code to Emotiva, which Emotiva must incorporate into firmware, test and release
3. Customers must purchase DLBC as an option from Dirac
I think that customers should expect the courtesy of a time frame for DLBC, so that we can make informed decisions. I would hate to switch to a another AVR only for Emotiva to release DLBC. In the very least, I think that we should at least be informed if Emotiva has a contractual commitment with Dirac to receive DLBC, because Dirac is probably pretty busy releasing product for Pioneer/Onkyo, and if we are depending on Dirac to deliver DLBC whenever they have time, we may never see it.
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Oct 25, 2021 14:46:44 GMT -5
It is my understanding that for the XMC/RMC platform: 1. Emotiva has always planned to DLBC-enable the platform 2. Dirac must create and provide DLBC code to Emotiva, which Emotiva must incorporate into firmware, test and release 3. Customers must purchase DLBC as an option from Dirac I think that customers should expect the courtesy of a time frame for DLBC, so that we can make informed decisions. I would hate to switch to a another AVR only for Emotiva to release DLBC. In the very least, I think that we should at least be informed if Emotiva has a contractual commitment with Dirac to receive DLBC, because Dirac is probably pretty busy releasing product for Pioneer/Onkyo, and if we are depending on Dirac to deliver DLBC whenever they have time, we may never see it. So as I parse through your post, what bubbles to the top of my brain are these questions: Has Dirac already provided code to Emotiva for DLBC or is that yet to happen? Is Emotiva contractually obligated to Dirac for providing a path to DLBC? These are good questions. I also believe we should know the answers, definitively. (Also, my brain percolates quite a bit.) |
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Post by jeffrey40sw on Oct 28, 2021 14:34:29 GMT -5
I have a question about dirac and nulls. I fully understand that trying to correct severe nulls with any dsp is futile, but how does dirac actually handle them when it sees one? Does it try to boost something 10db or more down at a frequency or does it ignore it under certain conditions? I thought I read somewhere that it does ignore sharp nulls but I can’t find that info. If it does try to boost them then adding points to limit is certainly the best way. Does anyone have info on this? Thanks in advance.
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