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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 10:52:16 GMT -5
PEQ/Dirac for LFE/Bass Management with all subs=None and Fronts=Large I just confirmed by resetting all Filters and re-measuring LCR and LFE with all subs set to None. Bass management sends the low frequencies from the small center to the large left/right fronts. I created full range PEQ filters for the center and loaded just that one channel's filters. No PEQ is applied below the crossover frequency (which I would expect). Then, I created full range PEQ filters for the left and right channels and loaded those. When I measure the left and right, their PEQ filters are applied. But when I re-measure the center, once again there is no PEQ applied below the crossover. So then I measured the LFE. Recall that all subs are set to None, so LFE should go only to the large left/right fronts. No PEQ was applied to the LFE. This is a serious problem for anyone who wants to use PEQ but does not have a sub, or chooses to not use a sub sometimes (i.e. for music). And I suspect this issue will be the case with Dirac also. Potentially ..... if you don't use a sub, you get no PEQ or Dirac correction below the crossover for small speakers or for LFE? seems like another good use case for virtual channel routing. Seems like we could decouple the logic from the hardware in some cases to retain working behavior over time. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 25, 2020 11:16:24 GMT -5
PEQ/Dirac for LFE/Bass Management with all subs=None and Fronts=Large I just confirmed by resetting all Filters and re-measuring LCR and LFE with all subs set to None. Bass management sends the low frequencies from the small center to the large left/right fronts. I created full range PEQ filters for the center and loaded just that one channel's filters. No PEQ is applied below the crossover frequency (which I would expect). Then, I created full range PEQ filters for the left and right channels and loaded those. When I measure the left and right, their PEQ filters are applied. But when I re-measure the center, once again there is no PEQ applied below the crossover. So then I measured the LFE. Recall that all subs are set to None, so LFE should go only to the large left/right fronts. No PEQ was applied to the LFE. This is a serious problem for anyone who wants to use PEQ but does not have a sub, or chooses to not use a sub sometimes (i.e. for music). And I suspect this issue will be the case with Dirac also. Potentially ..... if you don't use a sub, you get no PEQ or Dirac correction below the crossover for small speakers or for LFE? seems like another good use case for virtual channel routing. Seems like we could decouple the logic from the hardware in some cases to retain working behavior over time. I actually think something is broken in how PEQ is applied to bass management and LFE (remember, that was broken prior to 1.10, fixed in 1.10 but you had to switch presets to load the filters). I just created filters for center sub and they have no effect. Then I disabled center sub, moved the cable to left sub, enabled left sub mono, copied the same filter to left sub, and it works. But the real focus of my post is what happens when you have no subs configured. The signal from the small speaker should be passed to the large speaker and its PEQ filters should apply. That is most definitely not happening ... nor are filters applied when the .1/LFE is routed to the large fronts. And testing is even more frustrating because sometimes something doesn't work and you do a cold reboot and it works. I'm not going to do a cold reboot after each testing scenario. Megash0n I looked back at our FB exchange from a couple weeks ago and I do believe PEQ with bass management with no subs worked in 1.10. We were discussing my scenario of only using the sub for movie LFE and doing BM in the large fronts for music. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 25, 2020 11:36:31 GMT -5
First time caller, longtime listener. Received my EDNIB earlier this week only a few days after registering my RMC-1 MAC address on 7/20. For those who are interested, I was initially on the RMC-1 pre-release list in November 2018, but ended up canceling the order because of all of the reported issues with the initial firmware (probably a good decision in retrospect). I ended up reordering in July 2019 and went through the various firmware trials (1.7 was the first decent upgrade for me, 1.8 (or was it 1.9?) was awful and I went back to 1.7. Firmware v1.10 was a huge improvement and now 2.0 is a bit of a step backwards (volume input lagging and a couple of first time freezes), but usable so far). Anyway, I immediately installed the EDNIB to an already existing 8 port switch to which the RMC-1 is also attached, downloaded the software and registered a Dirac account. To make a long story short, the Dirac app will not see your RMC-1 if you have not gone into speaker presets and activated Dirac. Also, I was trying to use my laptop over wifi, but the Dirac app could not find my RMC-1 maybe because of the Orbi mesh network. I eventually found my thunderbolt to ethernet adapter and plugged into the same 8 port switch. Despite there being a license section in the Dirac account, no separate license is needed since your registration is locked to your unit's MAC address. All is showing up in the Dirac app and ready to go, except for finding time to run through the sweeps in a quiet house. Good luck to all! Welcome to the mic! π Looks like youβre one of the first with the kit installed! I first used a wired connection with my MacBook Pro, but later did measurements with WiFi and it worked, so wired recommended, but depending on the circumstances not essential. I outlined my recommendations here: emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1040376/thread |
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Post by tngiloy on Jul 25, 2020 12:29:28 GMT -5
AudioHTIT This is something I am apparently not understanding about DL. In your recommendations you state: "* Speakers configured correctly for location, size and crossover" I understand that the number of speakers you wish to test must be properly configured and for location, but I don't understand why the crossover and size needs to be input. Does the x-over assigned to my fronts affect the DL reading and/or calibration? I was under the assumption that when Dirac runs its sweeps of each speaker it does so in the full range for all speakers. Does it measure or calculate differently if I set the x-over at 40 hz or 80 ? Does it do different sweeps if a speaker pair is listed as 'small' or 'large' ?
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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 12:35:00 GMT -5
seems like another good use case for virtual channel routing. Seems like we could decouple the logic from the hardware in some cases to retain working behavior over time. I actually think something is broken in how PEQ is applied to bass management and LFE (remember, that was broken prior to 1.10, fixed in 1.10 but you had to switch presets to load the filters).Β Β I just created filters for center sub and they have no effect.Β Β Then I disabled center sub, moved the cable to left sub, enabled left sub mono, copied the same filter to left sub,Β and it works. But the real focus of my post is what happens when you have no subs configured.Β Β The signal from the small speaker should be passed to the large speaker and its PEQ filters should apply.Β That is most definitely not happening ... nor are filters applied when the .1/LFE is routed to the large fronts. And testing is even more frustrating because sometimes something doesn't work and you do a cold reboot and it works.Β I'm not going to do a cold reboot after each testing scenario.Β Megash0n I looked back at our FB exchange from a couple weeks ago and I do believe PEQ with bass management with no subs worked in 1.10.Β We were discussing my scenario of only using the sub for movie LFE and doing BM in the large fronts for music. I agree. I don't recall exactly what we discussed in regards to the PEQ part, but the BM part was definitely sending data as you expected. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 12:46:24 GMT -5
AudioHTIT This is something I am apparently not understanding about DL. In your recommendations you state: "* Speakers configured correctly for location, size and crossover" I understand that the number of speakers you wish to test must be properly configured and for location, but I don't understand why the crossover and size needs to be input. Does the x-over assigned to my fronts affect the DL reading and/or calibration? I was under the assumption that when Dirac runs its sweeps of each speaker it does so in the full range for all speakers. Does it measure or calculate differently if I set the x-over at 40 hz or 80 ? Does it do different sweeps if a speaker pair is listed as 'small' or 'large' ? It has been stated that Dirac measurements ignore these settings. I believe the general recommendation was to zero everything out. My EDNIB was just delivered, so I'll be configuring mine later today. I plan to just do a factory reset to zero everything out. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 25, 2020 15:59:57 GMT -5
AudioHTIT This is something I am apparently not understanding about DL. In your recommendations you state: "* Speakers configured correctly for location, size and crossover" I understand that the number of speakers you wish to test must be properly configured and for location, but I don't understand why the crossover and size needs to be input. Does the x-over assigned to my fronts affect the DL reading and/or calibration? I was under the assumption that when Dirac runs its sweeps of each speaker it does so in the full range for all speakers. Does it measure or calculate differently if I set the x-over at 40 hz or 80 ? Does it do different sweeps if a speaker pair is listed as 'small' or 'large' ? What I mean is that all the channels you want tested need to be configured, Fronts, Center, Side, Rear, Heights/Tops/Dolby Enabled, etc. Whether how heights are set makes a difference might be an interesting discussion, I think not -- meaning you could have separate Dolby and DTS settings in the same preset -- but maybe someone has an idea why that wouldn't work. It's true that levels, distance, size and crossover are irrelevant to the measurements, but as soon as it's done size and crossover will make a difference, whereas levels and distance won't (and I always leave levels at 0). Thanks, I could probably word that better, I'll ponder it. π€ |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2020 16:19:49 GMT -5
It's true that levels, distance, size and crossover are irrelevant to the measurements, but as soon as it's done size and crossover will make a difference, whereas levels and distance won't (and I always leave levels at 0). Levels can be changed after Dirac is finished, so if you want some speakers louder or softer than the others, then do it. Distance is not active in a Dirac filter, doesn't show up in Menu. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 25, 2020 16:28:19 GMT -5
AudioHTIT This is something I am apparently not understanding about DL. In your recommendations you state: "* Speakers configured correctly for location, size and crossover" I understand that the number of speakers you wish to test must be properly configured and for location, but I don't understand why the crossover and size needs to be input. Does the x-over assigned to my fronts affect the DL reading and/or calibration? I was under the assumption that when Dirac runs its sweeps of each speaker it does so in the full range for all speakers. Does it measure or calculate differently if I set the x-over at 40 hz or 80 ? Does it do different sweeps if a speaker pair is listed as 'small' or 'large' ? What I mean is that all the channels you want tested need to be configured, Fronts, Center, Side, Rear, Heights/Tops/Dolby Enabled, etc. Whether how heights are set makes a difference might be an interesting discussion, I think not -- meaning you could have separate Dolby and DTS settings in the same preset -- but maybe someone has an idea why that wouldn't work. It's true that levels, distance, size and crossover are irrelevant to the measurements, but as soon as it's done size and crossover will make a difference, whereas levels and distance won't (and I always leave levels at 0). Thanks, I could probably word that better, I'll ponder it. π€Thank you for persisting to try to help everyone, AudioHTIT! I bet we'd clear up a whole lot in a one hour Zoom call, compared to trying to tell our stories in forum format :-) |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 25, 2020 17:54:18 GMT -5
What I mean is that all the channels you want tested need to be configured, Fronts, Center, Side, Rear, Heights/Tops/Dolby Enabled, etc. Whether how heights are set makes a difference might be an interesting discussion, I think not -- meaning you could have separate Dolby and DTS settings in the same preset -- but maybe someone has an idea why that wouldn't work. It's true that levels, distance, size and crossover are irrelevant to the measurements, but as soon as it's done size and crossover will make a difference, whereas levels and distance won't (and I always leave levels at 0). Thanks, I could probably word that better, I'll ponder it. π€Thank you for persisting to try to help everyone, AudioHTIT! I bet we'd clear up a whole lot in a one hour Zoom call, compared to trying to tell our stories in forum format :-) Thanks and right back at ya marcl, youβve got the experience and Dirac chops that are helping us all with this. A Zoom meeting could be interesting ... can I play bass? |
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Post by marcl on Jul 25, 2020 18:02:23 GMT -5
Thank you for persisting to try to help everyone, AudioHTIT! I bet we'd clear up a whole lot in a one hour Zoom call, compared to trying to tell our stories in forum format :-) Thanks and right back at ya marcl , youβve got the experience and Dirac chops that are helping us all with this. A Zoom meeting could be interesting ... can I play bass? Attachments:
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 25, 2020 18:12:27 GMT -5
Iβve mentioned this when discussing the potential for taking Preset 1 measurements and saving them to Preset 2, but I think Iβll make a general recommendation for future flexibility. First, youβll find if you have a lot of speakers and do the βwideβ 17 point measurement, that it takes a while. So regardless of what layout you choose, right after you finish measuring, save your project in the /dirac/projects folder β not the /dirac/projects/autosave folder β where it might get overwritten. Then you have a clean set of measurements all by themselves, without targets, or other enhancements. There may be things (like the Preset hack) that youβll be able to do in the future with this. Your file name should at least include how many positions you measured, and if you have multiple speaker configs, that too. I just have two so I start mine with 2C (meaning 2.2 or now 2.1), or HT (meaning 7.1.4). So a minimal file name for me would be 2C-9PT (2 channel, 9 measurement points). You might want to add dates, or what you were wearing, Iβm sure there will be some good examples, but this is a good minimum start.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2020 19:22:12 GMT -5
This is something that is coming up so it needs to be repeated here.
Important Note: Please see the video on the first page of: The Official Dirac Live Thread : G3P called "Running Dirac Live Video".
Watch the entire video, but pay very close attention to 3:19 when the video shows what happens when Dirac Enable Checkbox is checked. After checking this box, STOP, put down the remote. The processor is now locked. Now start the Dirac app on the computer and proceed from there.
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hi
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Post by hi on Jul 25, 2020 19:49:01 GMT -5
Yes same here, due to the correction with MSO, the max output volume is also lower but overall much more "flat". Pay attention, not to waste power by trying to fill gaps, only cut peaks. Small clarification: "I got the best results by rotating the phase of the sub GROUP (DSP) by 180Β° and adjusting the delay (DISTANCE Setting on the rmc) to get the maximum cancellation at the transition frequency. Then reset the phase of the subs (dsp) and make fine adjustments (rmc)." in my case about 10m additional to the real distance to equalize the runtime of my dsp. Maybe a 180Β° degree phase fits better, then the same procedure inverted works (0Β° first, 180Β°after) Sry not an native english speaker. And again sorry if this is to OT. I just read a much shorter set of instructions that seem more clear. Their tutorial is just too lengthy. There's a good walk through on MiniDSPs website I will try tomorrow. I can already see where I made a couple of mistakes. Thank you for your message. After following the article from minidsp, MSO did a pretty great job creating filters for my subs. They look a ton better now. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I have enough amp ATM because the sub level is roughly 10db less than everything else. I'll have to figure that out at a later date. I'm in the middle of 17 measurements right now. πππ |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 19:57:03 GMT -5
I've clearly done something very wrong. I just finished Dirac calibration and it sounds absolutely awful. I might as well be using a $50 AVR right now. It sounds completely different, weird and just bad. Oh well.. Guess I'll have to start over. It is bad in every way. No dynamics. No immersion. It's just awful.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2020 20:03:53 GMT -5
I've clearly done something very wrong. I just finished Dirac calibration and it sounds absolutely awful. I might as well be using a $50 AVR right now. It sounds completely different, weird and just bad. Oh well.. Guess I'll have to start over. It is bad in every way. No dynamics. No immersion. It's just awful. Are your Speaker Levels set to 0.0dB on all speakers? |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 20:15:55 GMT -5
I've clearly done something very wrong. I just finished Dirac calibration and it sounds absolutely awful. I might as well be using a $50 AVR right now. It sounds completely different, weird and just bad. Oh well.. Guess I'll have to start over. It is bad in every way. No dynamics. No immersion. It's just awful. Are your Speaker Levels set to 0.0dB on all speakers? I reset to defaults and then set up the basic stuff. Here's something odd.. I have about a 20 db difference between the preset with Dirac compared to the other preset that only has crossover settings. I know I messed up the levels when I started the Dirac config. The weird part... When switching from the Dirac preset back to the non-dirac preset, the volume remains very low. While I know I messed up the measurements, there is something not right here. I was at -18 prior to switching presets. After selecting the Dirac preset and back to the original, I am at 0 db and it still doesn't sound as loud and vibrant as the -18 prior to switching presets. Edit: I'm switching back and forth between each preset with zero difference in SPL. It's like the Dirac settings are stuck now. With preset 2, and 0db, my ears would be bleeding and I'd probably have some busted T1s. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2020 20:19:58 GMT -5
Are your Speaker Levels set to 0.0dB on all speakers? I reset to defaults and then set up the basic stuff. Here's something odd.. I have about a 20 db difference between the preset with Dirac compared to the other preset that only has crossover settings. I know I messed up the levels when I started the Dirac config. The weird part... When switching from the Dirac preset back to the non-dirac preset, the volume remains very low. While I know I messed up the measurements, there is something not right here. I was at -18 prior to switching presets. After selecting the Dirac preset and back to the original, I am at 0 db and it still doesn't sound as loud and vibrant as the -18 prior to switching presets. Please help me understand. Are the Speaker Levels set to zero for all speakers? FYI My actual output post Dirac are lower also. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 25, 2020 20:23:40 GMT -5
I reset to defaults and then set up the basic stuff. Here's something odd.. I have about a 20 db difference between the preset with Dirac compared to the other preset that only has crossover settings. I know I messed up the levels when I started the Dirac config. The weird part... When switching from the Dirac preset back to the non-dirac preset, the volume remains very low. While I know I messed up the measurements, there is something not right here. I was at -18 prior to switching presets. After selecting the Dirac preset and back to the original, I am at 0 db and it still doesn't sound as loud and vibrant as the -18 prior to switching presets. Please help me understand. Are the Speaker Levels set to zero for all speakers? FYI My actual output post Dirac are lower also.Β all are zero except the subs.. Those are at +5 because I have some kind of gain issue I need to work thru. I think because my subs were roughly 15 db lower, it brought everything else down. While this ideally isn't the worst, I personally feel like this really jacks with dynamics. I need to fix this sub issue so that everything is the same level and start over. The whole thing seriously sounds god awful now. I'm not blaming Emotiva on this one yet. I'm pretty certain I messed something up. The strange part is that I cannot switch back to a non Dirac preset. It sounds the same. I'm going to have to restore my settings prior to running Dirac. |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2020 20:28:15 GMT -5
Please help me understand. Are the Speaker Levels set to zero for all speakers? FYI My actual output post Dirac are lower also. all are zero except the subs.. Those are at +5 because I have some kind of gain issue I need to work thru. So if you check the levels with an SPL meter, are they all equal or close to equal? Mine are mostly at zero except a few a -1dB and -1.5dB. Also, you might want to do a little test with only 1 mic position. It's quick and is a good baseline to build on. You will see a nag question come up with "do you really want to do this?", don't recall the wording. But after answering you can finish a quick filter for testing purposes. |
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