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Post by leonski on Dec 25, 2021 14:15:30 GMT -5
Except for the 'publicity value', DIRAC can do a phone conference with those who 'bailed out' of CES and get 'em the information that way....and have people standing by to
answer a few questions.....
No or little publiciity that way.
Some written material could be sent over by the same means.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 25, 2021 23:06:36 GMT -5
I couldn’t care less what Dirac comes out with until my XMC2 gets DLBC.
No interest in their next big release. Unless this next big release supersedes DLBC and Emotiva is skipping DLBC.
Still waiting for an ETA on DLBC for my XMC2 - maybe 2022? This is so absurd…
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Post by leonski on Dec 25, 2021 23:25:39 GMT -5
100%
Doesnt' mean much or anything to the EMO owner unless it applies. If it's 'Unobtanium', than who cares unless you are going to jump ship and
paddle over to the Titanic....??
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 26, 2021 14:17:12 GMT -5
It’s very tricky when the amp that powers the Atmos speakers are substantially weaker than the 7 channel amp that power the base speakers. I can’t get the Dirac calibration to NOT lower the volume significantly. Is there a trick to this? +1 to what marcl said. ^^^^ If you think it's directly related to the ATMOS speakers, then try a Dirac run without those speakers and see if any change in volume occurs. My bet is what Marc said about bass. But it's really easy to take out the ATMOS speakers in the Menu to test. So with turning off the rear ceiling, I was able to get a good Dirac run with normal volume levels. Now unfortunately the rear ceiling is not corrected. This seems like a functional gap in the Dirac process and maybe something they can address in the future but it’s good for now. Hopefully I won’t have to run Dirac again for a LONG time. Thanks guys for your suggestions!!! |
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Post by hsamwel on Dec 27, 2021 20:48:36 GMT -5
+1 to what marcl said. ^^^^ If you think it's directly related to the ATMOS speakers, then try a Dirac run without those speakers and see if any change in volume occurs. My bet is what Marc said about bass. But it's really easy to take out the ATMOS speakers in the Menu to test. So with turning off the rear ceiling, I was able to get a good Dirac run with normal volume levels. Now unfortunately the rear ceiling is not corrected. This seems like a functional gap in the Dirac process and maybe something they can address in the future but it’s good for now. Hopefully I won’t have to run Dirac again for a LONG time. Thanks guys for your suggestions!!! I use rear ceiling speakers and don’t have any volume issues.. Are you sure there aren’t other things in motion rather than faults with Dirac? All my ceiling speakers have a slight angle towards the MLP. I have not got a high ceiling, 2.4m (just above 7.8 ft). So they need this angle. If the speakers have narrow dispersion and are downfiring Dirac may have issues when doing measurements. Like having horn speakers on the ceiling. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Dec 27, 2021 21:41:15 GMT -5
So with turning off the rear ceiling, I was able to get a good Dirac run with normal volume levels. Now unfortunately the rear ceiling is not corrected. This seems like a functional gap in the Dirac process and maybe something they can address in the future but it’s good for now. Hopefully I won’t have to run Dirac again for a LONG time. Thanks guys for your suggestions!!! I use rear ceiling speakers and don’t have any volume issues.. Are you sure there aren’t other things in motion rather than faults with Dirac? All my ceiling speakers have a slight angle towards the MLP. I have not got a high ceiling, 2.4m (just above 7.8 ft). So they need this angle. If the speakers have narrow dispersion and are downfiring Dirac may have issues when doing measurements. Like having horn speakers on the ceiling. Good point about dispersion! Same as the mic not "seeing" the speaker. Will result in Dirac thinking the speaker has a low output. If the mic cannot "hear" the full range of a speaker, Dirac will attempt to compensate for the lack of frequency response which most likely will result in lowering the overall volume. So, just like we would expect of a pair of stereo speakers, all speakers in the system should "point" to the MLP whether physically or being well within the dispersion limits of the speaker. This is why I'm a big fan of the folded ribbon tweeters so popular these days, which offer wide dispersion. My ceiling speakers are surface mounted, I've got no choice with this, but this gives me an easy opportunity to get them all aimed directly at the MLP and, as such, they are always very close in level to each other. The Surround speakers are in-wall mounted, but are well within the dispersion limits at each location. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 28, 2021 0:12:52 GMT -5
So with turning off the rear ceiling, I was able to get a good Dirac run with normal volume levels. Now unfortunately the rear ceiling is not corrected. This seems like a functional gap in the Dirac process and maybe something they can address in the future but it’s good for now. Hopefully I won’t have to run Dirac again for a LONG time. Thanks guys for your suggestions!!! I use rear ceiling speakers and don’t have any volume issues.. Are you sure there aren’t other things in motion rather than faults with Dirac? All my ceiling speakers have a slight angle towards the MLP. I have not got a high ceiling, 2.4m (just above 7.8 ft). So they need this angle. If the speakers have narrow dispersion and are downfiring Dirac may have issues when doing measurements. Like having horn speakers on the ceiling. The issue is that I have a crappy 6 channel amp by Elac or Elan or something like that my buddy gave me. It’s 60 watts per channel but you can bridge it to 140 watts per channel. When it’s run at 60 watts it’s just too weak compared to the 200 watt Sherbourn amp that powers the 7 base channels. Therefore I’m forced to reduce the levels on the other channels and this causes the overall volume to be reduced. When I disabled the top rears, I bridged the other channels for the top front which was powerful enough for a good Dirac run. The fix is for me to buy another 4 or 5 channel amp for the rec room but that’s not a priority for me right now. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2021 15:07:17 GMT -5
I use rear ceiling speakers and don’t have any volume issues.. Are you sure there aren’t other things in motion rather than faults with Dirac? All my ceiling speakers have a slight angle towards the MLP. I have not got a high ceiling, 2.4m (just above 7.8 ft). So they need this angle. If the speakers have narrow dispersion and are downfiring Dirac may have issues when doing measurements. Like having horn speakers on the ceiling. The issue is that I have a crappy 6 channel amp by Elac or Elan or something like that my buddy gave me. It’s 60 watts per channel but you can bridge it to 140 watts per channel. When it’s run at 60 watts it’s just too weak compared to the 200 watt Sherbourn amp that powers the 7 base channels. Therefore I’m forced to reduce the levels on the other channels and this causes the overall volume to be reduced. When I disabled the top rears, I bridged the other channels for the top front which was powerful enough for a good Dirac run. The fix is for me to buy another 4 or 5 channel amp for the rec room but that’s not a priority for me right now. What is the speaker sensitivity that the 'weak' amp is supposed to drive? The difference between 200 watts and 60 watts is just over 5db......So if your ceiling speakers are HIGHER in sensitivity than the main? Subtract the difference from 5 to get the power difference IN DB. You probably don't need 'same power' all channels (esp rear ceiling), anyway..... And as you are up-amping, make certain you have sufficient HOUSE POWER for all those amps. A new 20 amp circuit or more, might be on the table....... |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 29, 2021 16:09:32 GMT -5
The issue is that I have a crappy 6 channel amp by Elac or Elan or something like that my buddy gave me. It’s 60 watts per channel but you can bridge it to 140 watts per channel. When it’s run at 60 watts it’s just too weak compared to the 200 watt Sherbourn amp that powers the 7 base channels. Therefore I’m forced to reduce the levels on the other channels and this causes the overall volume to be reduced. When I disabled the top rears, I bridged the other channels for the top front which was powerful enough for a good Dirac run. The fix is for me to buy another 4 or 5 channel amp for the rec room but that’s not a priority for me right now. What is the speaker sensitivity that the 'weak' amp is supposed to drive? The difference between 200 watts and 60 watts is just over 5db......So if your ceiling speakers are HIGHER in sensitivity than the main? Subtract the difference from 5 to get the power difference IN DB. You probably don't need 'same power' all channels (esp rear ceiling), anyway..... And as you are up-amping, make certain you have sufficient HOUSE POWER for all those amps. A new 20 amp circuit or more, might be on the table....... I had to increase the rear ceiling by 5.5 dB post Dirac so you are right on point. For normal use it’s fine, the only issue is when I’m running Dirac. I think the way I have it close enough for now. I hate running Dirac so it’ll be like this until we get DLBC and there is a need for me to remeasure. And yes, I should probably get a couple of 20 amp lines run…one for the family room and another for this rec room. |
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Post by marcl on Dec 29, 2021 16:31:41 GMT -5
What is the speaker sensitivity that the 'weak' amp is supposed to drive? The difference between 200 watts and 60 watts is just over 5db......So if your ceiling speakers are HIGHER in sensitivity than the main? Subtract the difference from 5 to get the power difference IN DB. You probably don't need 'same power' all channels (esp rear ceiling), anyway..... And as you are up-amping, make certain you have sufficient HOUSE POWER for all those amps. A new 20 amp circuit or more, might be on the table....... I had to increase the rear ceiling by 5.5 dB post Dirac so you are right on point. For normal use it’s fine, the only issue is when I’m running Dirac. I think the way I have it close enough for now. I hate running Dirac so it’ll be like this until we get DLBC and there is a need for me to remeasure. And yes, I should probably get a couple of 20 amp lines run…one for the family room and another for this rec room. My top rears have the least power of all my speakers ... 120W vs 300 and 700 for all the others. But the top rear speakers are so efficient I had to back off the level trims on those amps in order to get the speakers in the range in Dirac. So yes, efficiency is more the issue than power. But as long as you can get all the speakers within the 12db range in Dirac, it will work fine. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2021 18:00:04 GMT -5
Others should know your MAIN speakers are Magnepan.....of Notoriously LOW sensitivity. And if you are a 'stickler' for specs? The folks at White Bear Lake even rate them 'funny'.....
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Post by marcl on Dec 29, 2021 18:19:10 GMT -5
Others should know your MAIN speakers are Magnepan.....of Notoriously LOW sensitivity. And if you are a 'stickler' for specs? The folks at White Bear Lake even rate them 'fummy'..... Okay yeah for the record: Fronts: Magnepan 3.7 700W Center: Magnepan CC5 + DWM 300W Surrounds: Magnepan MC1 300W Rear Surround: Emotiva B1+ 225W Front top: Magnepan MMGW 300W Rear Top: Polk OWM5 120W Most efficient are the Polks with amps dialed down, followed by the B1+ Least efficient are MC1 |
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Post by hsamwel on Dec 31, 2021 0:24:03 GMT -5
I use rear ceiling speakers and don’t have any volume issues.. Are you sure there aren’t other things in motion rather than faults with Dirac? All my ceiling speakers have a slight angle towards the MLP. I have not got a high ceiling, 2.4m (just above 7.8 ft). So they need this angle. If the speakers have narrow dispersion and are downfiring Dirac may have issues when doing measurements. Like having horn speakers on the ceiling.' The issue is that I have a crappy 6 channel amp by Elac or Elan or something like that my buddy gave me. It’s 60 watts per channel but you can bridge it to 140 watts per channel. When it’s run at 60 watts it’s just too weak compared to the 200 watt Sherbourn amp that powers the 7 base channels. Therefore I’m forced to reduce the levels on the other channels and this causes the overall volume to be reduced. When I disabled the top rears, I bridged the other channels for the top front which was powerful enough for a good Dirac run. The fix is for me to buy another 4 or 5 channel amp for the rec room but that’s not a priority for me right now. I only drive my top speakers with 65W (Emotiva XPA gen3). They have a sensitivity of 87dB. All my speakers are 87dB except my fronts which are 88dB. What also is important is that your amplifiers (if you use more than one) has the same specs. Not talking about Watt here, that is the least important spec. Input sensitivity and gain should match otherwise it doesn’t matter if you have the same Watt or speaker sensitivity. |
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Post by hsamwel on Dec 31, 2021 0:27:28 GMT -5
Others should know your MAIN speakers are Magnepan.....of Notoriously LOW sensitivity. And if you are a 'stickler' for specs? The folks at White Bear Lake even rate them 'fummy'..... Okay yeah for the record: Fronts: Magnepan 3.7 700W Center: Magnepan CC5 + DWM 300W Surrounds: Magnepan MC1 300W Rear Surround: Emotiva B1+ 225W Front top: Magnepan MMGW 300W Rear Top: Polk OWM5 120W Most efficient are the Polks with amps dialed down, followed by the B1+ Least efficient are MC1 What’s the sensitivity specs for your speakers? Below 85dB for Magnepan I guess? Maybe 82-83? |
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Post by hsamwel on Dec 31, 2021 1:31:25 GMT -5
I have speakers with about the same sensitivity all pver.. SVS speakers on all places excluding the subs. The the large fronts are @88db all the rest are @87db. I have no volume issues.. I actually don’t have much volume difference between user and Dirac either.. I use 225-300W amplification on my main 5 bed speakers. The rest are only driven by 65W each. IMO setting up volume and doing calibration is not an issue with amplifiers. What weak amplifiers do is lower the dynamic peaks.. Until you reach the limit of the amplifier it will have the same volume as a higher powered one. As long as they both have the same gain and general specs. Having speakers with different specs is a lot bigger cause of volume issues. But as marcl said, this can be worked around. 1db is not worth the trouble to worry about. And I'm thinking you're right about amps.....up to the 'limit'? Should be no problem, either.... And I'd expect that the ambitious limits of the 5 main speaker amps might NOT be so, if plugged into a common circuit. 250 (value in the middle) X5 =1250 and add for the fact that your amp is probably NO MORE than 50% or so efficient? Than you'd need to know the rating for the Power Supply or simply the big toroid if linear. At that point? You might be over the line for a 'regular' 15 amp circuit..... Still and all? 200x5 all driven is nothing to sneeze at...Which is suspect is ALSO a non-issue given real program material... I’m in europe. We have 220-230V and usually on a 10A circuit. I have never run out of power yet. I run a 9.2.4 system with a 2x225W amp, XPA gen 3 11ch (3 mono+4 stereo modules), two 700W subs, a projector.. And the usual players for source,, Playing loud! If I do, I could easily replace the circuit with a 13A (getting access to almost 3000W) without changing anything else as my wires are speced for that. If I would have used the full power that many suggest I need I would have shut my circuit many times.. Most speakers use less power than people think, even in movies were the dynamics shifts heavily. Also most people don’t watch movies in 110dB. Most amplifiers also have a power bank for those bursts of peaks. I have automatic circuit breakers and they are a lot more sensitive to overdrive than the old type was. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 31, 2021 3:06:47 GMT -5
In the US? A standard 15 amp circuit is 'only' 1800 watts and you suffer a 20% 'derate' for long time period use.....so 1440 watts 'continuous'.
Many people, most in fact, would rarely bring this to stress. UNTIL you have multiple amps, a TV, and all the rest. But in YOUR Favor, is the fact that
yes, for sure, music is NOT continuous. It comes and goes with a crest factor of maybe 10db.....which also works out to 10x the power. But not to forget
that from the wall outlet to the speaker you are certainly NO HIGHER than maybe 3% to 5% efficient. The Remainder is heat...... Your G3 amps with the SMPS
has a more conventional A/B output. Call that amp about 50% efficient at high power. (less as power drops) and your speakers MIGHT be 5% efficient.
You can see that the numbers are not in favor of 'high efficiency'. Even 'D' amps with SMPS are maybe 90% at full power but less efficient as output drops....
Your point is VALID, but you need to take it to the limit. People simply do not use all the power they buy. They don't NEED all the power they buy, either.
Magnepans are perfect case in point. Magnepan call's em some sensitivity at 2.83 volts AND at ONE FREQUENCY. Well, they are 4 ohm speakers AND that 2.83 volts
is 2 watts! So drop the 'sensitivity' by 3 db. Still and all? When I had MG-1 panels a LONG TIME ago, I was able to get satisfying levels using a Kenwood Integrated of 60x2 8 ohm watts.
Maybe 80 watts per channel at 4 ohms. I've STILL GOT this amp......It's 40+ years old!
All that and I still suggest multiple circuits IF POSSIBLE. If you own a very powerful amp? Why Strangle it with insufficient power?
I sometimes wish my house were ALL 220 or whatever the standard would be. I think you can get by with 14GA Wire, while for a 20 amp circuit, I need 12ga....an additional expense.
And ONE final point. Right again. Multiple speakers REALLY ADD UP when it comes to SPL. I Imagine a 7 channels system would not need more than 5 watts per speaker with 50 watt Peaks to drive you
out of the house....
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Post by marcl on Dec 31, 2021 3:51:03 GMT -5
Okay yeah for the record: Fronts: Magnepan 3.7 700W Center: Magnepan CC5 + DWM 300W Surrounds: Magnepan MC1 300W Rear Surround: Emotiva B1+ 225W Front top: Magnepan MMGW 300W Rear Top: Polk OWM5 120W Most efficient are the Polks with amps dialed down, followed by the B1+ Least efficient are MC1 What’s the sensitivity specs for your speakers? Below 85dB for Magnepan I guess? Maybe 82-83? Magnepans 86 ... Polks 91 |
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Post by leonski on Dec 31, 2021 15:37:54 GMT -5
It is even WORSE for the Maggies. THEY say 86db but that is at 2.83 volts which is 2 watts at 4 ohms.......So subtract 3db. Magnepan ALSO specifies a frequency, not a 'range' or overall.....
For 2 channel fans? IF you decide on Magnepan, you better have an amp that can bring it.....And because of the physics of it, they'll only play 'so loud'.....
But for the 3-series on UP? That Ribbon tweeter is world class......
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Post by marcl on Dec 31, 2021 15:46:40 GMT -5
It is even WORSE for the Maggies. THEY say 86db but that is at 2.83 volts which is 2 watts at 4 ohms.......So subtract 3db. Magnepan ALSO specifies a frequency, not a 'range' or overall..... For 2 channel fans? IF you decide on Magnepan, you better have an amp that can bring it.....And because of the physics of it, they'll only play 'so loud'..... But for the 3-series on UP? That Ribbon tweeter is world class...... Agreed. In general efficiency numbers are kind of useless for their lack of standardization. The B1+ says 86db 2.83V/1m and there's no way any of the Maggies are as efficient as the B1+. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 31, 2021 19:11:29 GMT -5
Magnepan has a couple 'special' aspects.
Mainly Line Source behavior.
Dipole means about 1/2 the radiation goes 'out the back'.....where it is up for grabs. Reflect? Diffuse? Absorb? Yes? No? Some of each, please?
Front / back waves CANCEL at the transition edge......You can test that on YOUR panels. Another complication.
And you may have 2 distinct 'schools' of thought on this matter.
IN ROOM would present you with the double problem of room gain AND time limits to the measure
ANACHOIC for panels means you end up in Ignorance of the backside of the speakers contribution to output.
Any way you slice it......Agreed.....a Can Of Worms.....
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