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Post by marcl on Jan 10, 2022 21:03:28 GMT -5
Just to confirm, are folks recommending that we upgrade to the latest version of Dirac, downloaded directly from Dirac? The latest version is 3.1.2 released Sept 22. It was mostly for those with a DLBC problem. Probably fixes some things that aren't specified. Always a good idea to use the latest version. |
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 10, 2022 21:13:04 GMT -5
Just to confirm, are folks recommending that we upgrade to the latest version of Dirac, downloaded directly from Dirac? The latest version is 3.1.2 released Sept 22. It was mostly for those with a DLBC problem. Probably fixes some things that aren't specified. Always a good idea to use the latest version. Thanks, I will double-check version this weekend. Also does anyone happen to know where Dirac saves the control point text files after you save them? |
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 11, 2022 14:39:57 GMT -5
The latest version is 3.1.2 released Sept 22. It was mostly for those with a DLBC problem. Probably fixes some things that aren't specified. Always a good idea to use the latest version. Thanks, I will double-check version this weekend. Also does anyone happen to know where Dirac saves the control point text files after you save them? Dirac responded: that's not an officially supported feature but you should be able to find the target curve files here: OS C: -> Users -> "your user" -> Dirac -> targets |
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Post by marcl on Jan 11, 2022 16:22:53 GMT -5
Thanks, I will double-check version this weekend. Also does anyone happen to know where Dirac saves the control point text files after you save them? Dirac responded: that's not an officially supported feature but you should be able to find the target curve files here: OS C: -> Users -> "your user" -> Dirac -> targets Yes that's the default location. I store my custom curves there too. It's a text file and you can edit it with a text editor. |
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 11, 2022 16:29:02 GMT -5
Dirac responded: that's not an officially supported feature but you should be able to find the target curve files here: OS C: -> Users -> "your user" -> Dirac -> targets Yes that's the default location. I store my custom curves there too. It's a text file and you can edit it with a text editor. I have a mid-bass peak (which I suspect is not the bass level issue others have reported) which is not completely corrected by reducing the subs levels, so I am thinking of pulling down the frequencies around the sub crossover. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 11, 2022 16:48:03 GMT -5
Yes that's the default location. I store my custom curves there too. It's a text file and you can edit it with a text editor. I have a mid-bass peak (which I suspect is not the bass level issue others have reported) which is not completely corrected by reducing the subs levels, so I am thinking of pulling down the frequencies around the sub crossover. Can you see the peak in the Dirac measurement of your fronts or your sub? Does the peak seem to be at the crossover point? Are you able to run a test with REW with Dirac filters to show the overall response of the sub + small speakers through the crossover point. Note that the bass management issue is not a peak. It's a uniform increase in level below the crossover point. So if you're observing a peak, then yes, it's something else. |
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 11, 2022 16:53:32 GMT -5
Can you see the peak in the Dirac measurement of your fronts or your sub? Does the peak seem to be at the crossover point? Are you able to run a test with REW with Dirac filters to show the overall response of the sub + small speakers through the crossover point. Note that the bass management issue is not a peak. It's a uniform increase in level below the crossover point. So if you're observing a peak, then yes, it's something else. The peak is entirely "by ear", that region seems bloated. All looks fine with Dirac, it is able correct all speakers to the target curve. I have not tried running REW. I don't have it but I do have Omnimic (which I haven't used in ages). I also have a handheld spectrum analyzer which likely isn't precise enough to be of help. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 11, 2022 17:05:22 GMT -5
Can you see the peak in the Dirac measurement of your fronts or your sub? Does the peak seem to be at the crossover point? Are you able to run a test with REW with Dirac filters to show the overall response of the sub + small speakers through the crossover point. Note that the bass management issue is not a peak. It's a uniform increase in level below the crossover point. So if you're observing a peak, then yes, it's something else. The peak is entirely "by ear", that region seems bloated. All looks fine with Dirac, it is able correct all speakers to the target curve. I have not tried running REW. I don't have it but I do have Omnimic (which I haven't used in ages). I also have a handheld spectrum analyzer which likely isn't precise enough to be of help. I see. So first be aware that Dirac shows a theoretical correction in the filter design, and it does not actually measure the "after" response. Actual response won't be that perfect, and more importantly, Dirac never measures the combined response of your sub + small speaker. You might try a phone app spectrum analyzer. I've used AutioTools. But REW is the best way to see what's really happening. Good news is if there is a peak, Dirac can fix it. It's the cancellations that are difficult. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 11, 2022 17:22:39 GMT -5
Yes that's the default location. I store my custom curves there too. It's a text file and you can edit it with a text editor. I have a mid-bass peak (which I suspect is not the bass level issue others have reported) which is not completely corrected by reducing the subs levels, so I am thinking of pulling down the frequencies around the sub crossover. If you confirm what marci asked, can you LOWER the crossover point? Mid-bass implies WAY too high to be useful by a sub.......and localizable by ear. |
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 11, 2022 19:20:50 GMT -5
I have a mid-bass peak (which I suspect is not the bass level issue others have reported) which is not completely corrected by reducing the subs levels, so I am thinking of pulling down the frequencies around the sub crossover. If you confirm what marci asked, can you LOWER the crossover point? Mid-bass implies WAY too high to be useful by a sub.......and localizable by ear. Yes I can lower it, currently set at 100Hz. The subs roll off sharply according to Dirac at around 70-80Hz (which is odd because the Bag Ends should be rolling off at 100 Hz - this in inherent to the design and is not configurable). Using my spectrum analyzer is certainly a reasonable way to see what is happening in the room. I presume I should change weighting to flat for that? And changing crossover frequency is easier than meddling with the target curve. I hesitate to take it too low, The Newforms only have 5.25" 'woofers' (though there are 6 to a side). Dirac has them with a reasonable response down to around 40 Hz. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 11, 2022 21:12:16 GMT -5
If your main go to 40, than you COULD cross 1/2 octive higher at 60......than cross the subs at 50.....so they'd 'sum flat' thru the passband. Something which could be tested, which is neat.....
If Bag Ends SAYS 100, I'd hope you could believe them. Have you tried mic say......1 meter FROM the speaker or even out in the DRIVE at close range.....in order to minimize ROOM EFFECTS which
might easily have a room 'node' at that point? Is that confirmed with 4 or 5 or even MORE measurement locations?
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 12, 2022 11:02:53 GMT -5
If your main go to 40, than you COULD cross 1/2 octive higher at 60......than cross the subs at 50.....so they'd 'sum flat' thru the passband. Something which could be tested, which is neat..... If Bag Ends SAYS 100, I'd hope you could believe them. Have you tried mic say......1 meter FROM the speaker or even out in the DRIVE at close range.....in order to minimize ROOM EFFECTS which might easily have a room 'node' at that point? Is that confirmed with 4 or 5 or even MORE measurement locations? Good suggestions. Also might be worthwhile to contact Bag End. The controller and subs are 25 years old now. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 12, 2022 15:05:14 GMT -5
That's even OLDER than my HSU Research sub!
They may want YOUR subs for their MUSEUM and give you a Big Trade In for new!
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 12, 2022 22:40:18 GMT -5
That's even OLDER than my HSU Research sub! They may want YOUR subs for their MUSEUM and give you a Big Trade In for new! Heh. They went from state of the art back then but basically no development since. The current subs are still the same models (though they have added others) and the more recent controllers aren't as good, require you to pull the top to change settings. I bought them for my first home theater 25 years ago. Was hard to find subs that integrated well with my Magnepans. They are a PITA to get properly set up, but when they are, they perform very well. Only part of my original HT that I still have. My current theater space is about as bad acoustically as you can get. I have done some treatment but that doesn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. My first HT was in a purpose built room I designed, sure miss it. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 12, 2022 23:49:44 GMT -5
If I were building a sub at the 'Bag Ends' level, It' would USB connect to a computer for adjustment....and have 3 memories IN the sub so you could load
3 profiles at a time for test......
I just go on luck. My HSU witht my Maggies is very musical. but that after a little location testing along with noodling thru the crossover options.......
My panels are high passed about 50hz or so while the sub crossess about 40hz.....
Exactly what I recommend for others. No 'muddiness' or peakiness at all.
And I'll match you awful room for awful room......Mine has 9 sides and an asymmetric peak in the ceiling.....
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 15, 2022 22:49:42 GMT -5
If I were building a sub at the 'Bag Ends' level, It' would USB connect to a computer for adjustment....and have 3 memories IN the sub so you could load 3 profiles at a time for test...... I just go on luck. My HSU witht my Maggies is very musical. but that after a little location testing along with noodling thru the crossover options....... My panels are high passed about 50hz or so while the sub crossess about 40hz..... Exactly what I recommend for others. No 'muddiness' or peakiness at all. And I'll match you awful room for awful room......Mine has 9 sides and an asymmetric peak in the ceiling..... Way beyond the available technology when these subs were designed... So I re-ran the measurements today (had to use the trick of factory reset to get the XMC-2 on the network). I got rid of the low end rise in the target curves and played around a bit with curtains. Tried the mains crossed over at 60. Not bad, but not where I wanted it to be. Then I tried 50 Hz. Surprisingly had to also rebalance sub levels with meter. Everything fell into place, the low end just sounds right now. And at quite high levels in rock or movies (tried Master and Commander) the Newforms have no problem whatsoever keeping up, no strain. I guess six 5" mid woofs per side are enough after all. Had to cross over the center at 90 Hz, it just drops way off. I suspect the Newforms want to be on the ground and the center is on a stand. Need to do some more listening, but happy so far. Thanks for the suggestions. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 16, 2022 16:02:56 GMT -5
Agreed. I think I mentioned that Bag End may want' 'em back for the Museum!
And I'm glad you had such success. IMO, 'excessive' overlap and crossing the subb Too High is a common error.
You actually gave me a data point to verify my 'noodled' approach which just 'seemed' the right way for me to proceed.
This given I have NO Dirac or REW and only a 2.1 system.....But the preamp DOES have fairly flexible bass managemnt and the sub is 24db / octave crossover....
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flac
Minor Hero
Posts: 11 
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Post by flac on Jan 19, 2022 12:20:48 GMT -5
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Post by krauley on Jan 20, 2022 19:36:09 GMT -5
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Post by bradleyaudio on Jan 21, 2022 12:18:02 GMT -5
Does anyone happen to have a copy of the default target curve text file?
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