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Post by marcl on Jan 26, 2022 13:33:14 GMT -5
Useful info from Flavio (works for Dirac) from the AVSForum thread: as far as the curtain is concerned the new limitation to 20 Hz (from 10 Hz) is due to the fact that measurements below that frequency can be unreliable as affected by ambient noise even if inaudible. With reference to issues mentioned on the first page of this thread let me add the following... 1- "Hump" at the low end of the subwoofer response - This is covered by the above, no correction is applied below 20 Hz 2- No low-pass filter on the LFE channel when Dirac's bass management is engaged - The low-pass filter has been added in the latest release 3- Dirac Live is incompatible with ceiling-firing Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers - We might consider a manual option in the future as suggested, it hasn't been prioritized yet as (if and when it happens) it's not likely that a slightly incorrect delay on a height speaker will significantly affect the audio experience 4- 3.2.0/3.2.1: Correction limited to 20Hz which leaves the response below uncorrected - This is intentional, the noise below 20 Hz is often huge and we have a high pass filter at (I think 10 Hz) to mitigate some of this. Marc, Is Flavio saying that Dirac Live has never worked with ceiling mounted Atmos speakers or speakers that bounce their output off the ceiling? I don't know, but I would bet that's the case. I have an unusual setup with my Magnepans where the L/R front speakers bounce the primary sound off the side walls. I spent several months trying to figure out how to get Dirac to align them properly with the other speakers. My situation is complicated by the back wave from the dipole design being 180 degrees out of phase. Dirac at first thought my fronts were out of phase with everything else and flipped the polarity. I'd have to switch the wires after each calibration. And it would sometimes time-align on a leaked direct sound from the front of the speakers rather than the reflection. I finally solved it by using temporary baffles to block all but the bounced sound during the first (MLP) measurement that Dirac uses for time delay. Then I'd remove the baffles to take the remaining measurements. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 26, 2022 13:37:43 GMT -5
What about the crossover setting on my subwoofers when calibrating with Dirac? Crossover should be set as high as possible, right? Yes always leave the crossover on your sub set to its highest frequency and do bass management crossovers in your processor. The LFE channel can go up to 120Hz and is unaffected by processor crossover settings. Crossovers in the processor have no effect while calibrating. Dirac measures the subs on their own full range, and measures each individual speaker full range without the subs. |
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Post by jbrunwa on Jan 26, 2022 14:31:14 GMT -5
Useful info from Flavio (works for Dirac) from the AVSForum thread: as far as the curtain is concerned the new limitation to 20 Hz (from 10 Hz) is due to the fact that measurements below that frequency can be unreliable as affected by ambient noise even if inaudible. With reference to issues mentioned on the first page of this thread let me add the following... 1- "Hump" at the low end of the subwoofer response - This is covered by the above, no correction is applied below 20 Hz 2- No low-pass filter on the LFE channel when Dirac's bass management is engaged - The low-pass filter has been added in the latest release 3- Dirac Live is incompatible with ceiling-firing Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers - We might consider a manual option in the future as suggested, it hasn't been prioritized yet as (if and when it happens) it's not likely that a slightly incorrect delay on a height speaker will significantly affect the audio experience 4- 3.2.0/3.2.1: Correction limited to 20Hz which leaves the response below uncorrected - This is intentional, the noise below 20 Hz is often huge and we have a high pass filter at (I think 10 Hz) to mitigate some of this. Marc, Is Flavio saying that Dirac Live has never worked with ceiling mounted Atmos speakers or speakers that bounce their output off the ceiling? I understand ceiling-firing Dolby Atmos-enabled to refer only to speakers that sit on top of mains that bounce sound off the ceiling, and not ceiling mounted speakers. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 26, 2022 15:05:16 GMT -5
Not that it is REALLY pertenent, but my ancient NAD1700 Tuner/Preamp had an INFRASONIC filter set at about 20hz. It was intended to removed TT 'rumble' and record warp.
With filter 'off' you could see the woofer moving back and forth.....which went away when the filter was enabled.
LOW frequencies ARE the most problematic. Room 'rumble' is as good a reason as any and probably only part of the issue....This means that bot correction AND measurment are iffy.....
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Post by fbczar on Jan 26, 2022 15:12:13 GMT -5
Marc, Is Flavio saying that Dirac Live has never worked with ceiling mounted Atmos speakers or speakers that bounce their output off the ceiling? I don't know, but I would bet that's the case. I have an unusual setup with my Magnepans where the L/R front speakers bounce the primary sound off the side walls. I spent several months trying to figure out how to get Dirac to align them properly with the other speakers. My situation is complicated by the back wave from the dipole design being 180 degrees out of phase. Dirac at first thought my fronts were out of phase with everything else and flipped the polarity. I'd have to switch the wires after each calibration. And it would sometimes time-align on a leaked direct sound from the front of the speakers rather than the reflection. I finally solved it by using temporary baffles to block all but the bounced sound during the first (MLP) measurement that Dirac uses for time delay. Then I'd remove the baffles to take the remaining measurements. You are indeed long suffering! However, I am beginning to believe Dirac is not worth the effort, at least for anything other than some basic home theater set-ups. It down samples high res files,It cannot EQ below 20HZ reliably and now it cannot properly blend Atmos speakers into a system? I will give Dirac praise for making multiple speakers timbre match and is bad situations it can be a help, but if it cannot handle Atmos that is a real let down. Back to more room treatments for me. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 26, 2022 15:56:25 GMT -5
I don't know, but I would bet that's the case. I have an unusual setup with my Magnepans where the L/R front speakers bounce the primary sound off the side walls. I spent several months trying to figure out how to get Dirac to align them properly with the other speakers. My situation is complicated by the back wave from the dipole design being 180 degrees out of phase. Dirac at first thought my fronts were out of phase with everything else and flipped the polarity. I'd have to switch the wires after each calibration. And it would sometimes time-align on a leaked direct sound from the front of the speakers rather than the reflection. I finally solved it by using temporary baffles to block all but the bounced sound during the first (MLP) measurement that Dirac uses for time delay. Then I'd remove the baffles to take the remaining measurements. You are indeed long suffering! However, I am beginning to believe Dirac is not worth the effort, at least for anything other than some basic home theater set-ups. It down samples high res files,It cannot EQ below 20HZ reliably and now it cannot properly blend Atmos speakers into a system? I will give Dirac praise for making multiple speakers timbre match and is bad situations it can be a help, but if it cannot handle Atmos that is a real let down. Back to more room treatments for me. It's important to note that Dirac works great with Atmos speakers mounted to the ceiling. It just can't do the time alignment for Atmos speakers that are located at ear level and bounce the sound off the ceiling (supposedly) so that you hear the effect as though the speakers were on the ceiling. It works exceptionally well over the whole frequency range, with this recent limitation of 20Hz being relatively insignificant compared to the benefits, especially between 20Hz nd 200Hz. I have LOTS of room treatment, but have only been able to reduce my fundamental 40Hz-70Hz peak to null from 25db down to 15db. Some sort of EQ is necessary to do this. And, Dirac provides impulse response correction which improves overall clarity. As for the downsample .... well, overall I'm not sure it's ever been proven that anyone can hear the difference between a 96KHz sample rate and the same source downsampled to 48KHz ... but that sure is a separate debate. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 26, 2022 17:44:22 GMT -5
I don't know, but I would bet that's the case. I have an unusual setup with my Magnepans where the L/R front speakers bounce the primary sound off the side walls. I spent several months trying to figure out how to get Dirac to align them properly with the other speakers. My situation is complicated by the back wave from the dipole design being 180 degrees out of phase. Dirac at first thought my fronts were out of phase with everything else and flipped the polarity. I'd have to switch the wires after each calibration. And it would sometimes time-align on a leaked direct sound from the front of the speakers rather than the reflection. I finally solved it by using temporary baffles to block all but the bounced sound during the first (MLP) measurement that Dirac uses for time delay. Then I'd remove the baffles to take the remaining measurements. You are indeed long suffering! However, I am beginning to believe Dirac is not worth the effort, at least for anything other than some basic home theater set-ups. It down samples high res files,It cannot EQ below 20HZ reliably and now it cannot properly blend Atmos speakers into a system? I will give Dirac praise for making multiple speakers timbre match and is bad situations it can be a help, but if it cannot handle Atmos that is a real let down. Back to more room treatments for me. Can ANY system 'reliably' work below 20hz or so? It would seem that for ALL systems, the room is the same with same dimensions, problems and VLF 'noise'...... Besides? Since I can only think of ONE musical note below 20hz, I doubt 'accuracy' is a problem given nobody knows what most of that stuff sounds like, anyway..... You are getting excited by a near-non issue.... Turning your listening area into an Anachoic space is not the solution. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 26, 2022 18:04:31 GMT -5
You are indeed long suffering! However, I am beginning to believe Dirac is not worth the effort, at least for anything other than some basic home theater set-ups. It down samples high res files,It cannot EQ below 20HZ reliably and now it cannot properly blend Atmos speakers into a system? I will give Dirac praise for making multiple speakers timbre match and is bad situations it can be a help, but if it cannot handle Atmos that is a real let down. Back to more room treatments for me. It's important to note that Dirac works great with Atmos speakers mounted to the ceiling. It just can't do the time alignment for Atmos speakers that are located at ear level and bounce the sound off the ceiling (supposedly) so that you hear the effect as though the speakers were on the ceiling. It works exceptionally well over the whole frequency range, with this recent limitation of 20Hz being relatively insignificant compared to the benefits, especially between 20Hz nd 200Hz. I have LOTS of room treatment, but have only been able to reduce my fundamental 40Hz-70Hz peak to null from 25db down to 15db. Some sort of EQ is necessary to do this. And, Dirac provides impulse response correction which improves overall clarity. As for the downsample .... well, overall I'm not sure it's ever been proven that anyone can hear the difference between a 96KHz sample rate and the same source downsampled to 48KHz ... but that sure is a separate debate. I thought you meant Dirac Live could not EQ ceiling mounted Atmos speakers. Good to hear Atmos is not a lost cause with Dirac. So all this time Dirac was not really able to EQ below 20Hz? Interesting. Down sampling cannot be good. Several processors provide a sample rate of 96Khz for Dirac Live and Emotiva said it could be done, Emotiva has just failed implement a higher sample rate even though they indicated they could and likely would two years ago. Same with DSD over USB. Heck, the DSD promise is even in the owner's manual. Anyway, good to hear Dirac can handle ceiling mounted Atmos speakers. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 26, 2022 19:29:07 GMT -5
You are indeed long suffering! However, I am beginning to believe Dirac is not worth the effort, at least for anything other than some basic home theater set-ups. It down samples high res files,It cannot EQ below 20HZ reliably and now it cannot properly blend Atmos speakers into a system? I will give Dirac praise for making multiple speakers timbre match and is bad situations it can be a help, but if it cannot handle Atmos that is a real let down. Back to more room treatments for me. Can ANY system 'reliably' work below 20hz or so? It would seem that for ALL systems, the room is the same with same dimensions, problems and VLF 'noise'...... Besides? Since I can only think of ONE musical note below 20hz, I doubt 'accuracy' is a problem given nobody knows what most of that stuff sounds like, anyway..... You are getting excited by a near-non issue.... Turning your listening area into an Anachoic space is not the solution. What a relief! Silly me being concerned over the apparent conscious decision to limit the functionality of Dirac. I should have known it was a "near-non issue." And All this time I thought movies were just full of sub 20Hz content and that a smooth, powerful even response in that range added to the enjoyment of a motion picture. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 26, 2022 21:40:59 GMT -5
It's important to note that Dirac works great with Atmos speakers mounted to the ceiling. It just can't do the time alignment for Atmos speakers that are located at ear level and bounce the sound off the ceiling (supposedly) so that you hear the effect as though the speakers were on the ceiling. It works exceptionally well over the whole frequency range, with this recent limitation of 20Hz being relatively insignificant compared to the benefits, especially between 20Hz nd 200Hz. I have LOTS of room treatment, but have only been able to reduce my fundamental 40Hz-70Hz peak to null from 25db down to 15db. Some sort of EQ is necessary to do this. And, Dirac provides impulse response correction which improves overall clarity. As for the downsample .... well, overall I'm not sure it's ever been proven that anyone can hear the difference between a 96KHz sample rate and the same source downsampled to 48KHz ... but that sure is a separate debate. I thought you meant Dirac Live could not EQ ceiling mounted Atmos speakers. Good to hear Atmos is not a lost cause with Dirac. So all this time Dirac was not really able to EQ below 20Hz? Interesting. Down sampling cannot be good. Several processors provide a sample rate of 96Khz for Dirac Live and Emotiva said it could be done, Emotiva has just failed implement a higher sample rate even though they indicated they could and likely would two years ago. Same with DSD over USB. Heck, the DSD promise is even in the owner's manual. Anyway, good to hear Dirac can handle ceiling mounted Atmos speakers. Dirac was always able to EQ below 20Hz up to version 3.1.2. Starting with 3.2 and 3.2.1 they limit correction to > 20Hz. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 26, 2022 22:56:37 GMT -5
Can ANY system 'reliably' work below 20hz or so? It would seem that for ALL systems, the room is the same with same dimensions, problems and VLF 'noise'...... Besides? Since I can only think of ONE musical note below 20hz, I doubt 'accuracy' is a problem given nobody knows what most of that stuff sounds like, anyway..... You are getting excited by a near-non issue.... Turning your listening area into an Anachoic space is not the solution. What a relief! Silly me being concerned over the apparent conscious decision to limit the functionality of Dirac. I should have known it was a "near-non issue." And All this time I thought movies were just full of sub 20Hz content and that a smooth, powerful even response in that range added to the enjoyment of a motion picture. Amount of content below 20hz is minimal. Overtones extend an octave or more higher. And just WHAT is that content supposed to sound like? You're apparently the only one who knows! My sub has output down to the low note of a pipe organ....16hz...or so.....(actually fractionally higher) while still being musical. But I do NOT turn it up for that. I'm certain some bigtime subs would do this note at a much higher level and still be musical....My poor old HSU is right at the lower limit. But for movies? Very good. All the effects are THERE. I don't know about louder / better? But I'm perfectly happy and would not go into obsess mode. At those Ultra Low Frequencies, you are encountering several issues. Room? Ambient 'noise'? Dimensions?/ Resonance? Have fun and continue posting your 'calibration of the week' until you tire of it and just LISTEN and WATCH......It's actually more fun that way... I might add that I have a question? What does DIRAC know that most of the rest of us DON'T? Why did they change the lower limit? I have also looked at half a dozen or MORE measurement microphones...from the UMIK series to Beringer and more.....NONE are rated below 20hz and NONE specify a tolerance. (like 20-20,000 +-4db) expecting everyone to be happy with the calibration file......Minimal mention of 'pattern', too....which helps 'aim' the mic for proper measurments and use OF the cal file..... |
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Post by marcl on Jan 27, 2022 9:10:52 GMT -5
What a relief! Silly me being concerned over the apparent conscious decision to limit the functionality of Dirac. I should have known it was a "near-non issue." And All this time I thought movies were just full of sub 20Hz content and that a smooth, powerful even response in that range added to the enjoyment of a motion picture. Amount of content below 20hz is minimal. Overtones extend an octave or more higher. And just WHAT is that content supposed to sound like? You're apparently the only one who knows! My sub has output down to the low note of a pipe organ....16hz...or so.....(actually fractionally higher) while still being musical. But I do NOT turn it up for that. I'm certain some bigtime subs would do this note at a much higher level and still be musical....My poor old HSU is right at the lower limit. But for movies? Very good. All the effects are THERE. I don't know about louder / better? But I'm perfectly happy and would not go into obsess mode. At those Ultra Low Frequencies, you are encountering several issues. Room? Ambient 'noise'? Dimensions?/ Resonance? Have fun and continue posting your 'calibration of the week' until you tire of it and just LISTEN and WATCH......It's actually more fun that way... I might add that I have a question? What does DIRAC know that most of the rest of us DON'T? Why did they change the lower limit? I have also looked at half a dozen or MORE measurement microphones...from the UMIK series to Beringer and more.....NONE are rated below 20hz and NONE specify a tolerance. (like 20-20,000 +-4db) expecting everyone to be happy with the calibration file......Minimal mention of 'pattern', too....which helps 'aim' the mic for proper measurments and use OF the cal file.....  I would not debate the marginal benefits of having response to 16Hz from a content perspective. Indeed, we're talking about an organ pipe and that's about it. Not likely any LFE down there. The benefit is in having (what's the opposite of headroom?) "elbow room"? So that the subs perform uniformly and without undue effort down to 20Hz. My complaint is illustrated in the screen shot. Because they won't let me pull the curtain to 16, I have an 8db bump at 20 that tapers up to 24. After many iterations of calibrations with Dirac, I have found I need some room at the low end to get the response uniform down to 20. That's really my goal. Because you can get LFE down to 20-25Hz. And, I use the curtains and target points not to prevent correction below 20Hz, but to purposely roll it off to avoid any subsonics rumbling the subs or causing distortion. When I loaded an old project but did not load my custom target curves, Dirac showed me this predicted response. Yeah, a little squirrely around 20Hz, but better than that big bump.  However ... I have not yet tried to go all the way to filter export and REW measurements with 3.2.1 so I don't know what the actual results will be. Hopefully soon ... |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 27, 2022 12:28:17 GMT -5
What a relief! Silly me being concerned over the apparent conscious decision to limit the functionality of Dirac. I should have known it was a "near-non issue." And All this time I thought movies were just full of sub 20Hz content and that a smooth, powerful even response in that range added to the enjoyment of a motion picture. Amount of content below 20hz is minimal. Overtones extend an octave or more higher. And just WHAT is that content supposed to sound like? You're apparently the only one who knows! My sub has output down to the low note of a pipe organ....16hz...or so.....(actually fractionally higher) while still being musical. But I do NOT turn it up for that. I'm certain some bigtime subs would do this note at a much higher level and still be musical....My poor old HSU is right at the lower limit. But for movies? Very good. All the effects are THERE. I don't know about louder / better? But I'm perfectly happy and would not go into obsess mode. At those Ultra Low Frequencies, you are encountering several issues. Room? Ambient 'noise'? Dimensions?/ Resonance? Have fun and continue posting your 'calibration of the week' until you tire of it and just LISTEN and WATCH......It's actually more fun that way... I might add that I have a question? What does DIRAC know that most of the rest of us DON'T? Why did they change the lower limit? I have also looked at half a dozen or MORE measurement microphones...from the UMIK series to Beringer and more.....NONE are rated below 20hz and NONE specify a tolerance. (like 20-20,000 +-4db) expecting everyone to be happy with the calibration file......Minimal mention of 'pattern', too....which helps 'aim' the mic for proper measurments and use OF the cal file..... If you have little or no interest in optimizing the bass in your room it is fine with me. Exactly who said they knew what special effects on the LFE channel were supposed to sound like? My main speakers measure to 16Hz before they roll off according to Dirac and I like the idea of smoothing the response to the point where the roll off begins. Dirac shows my subs to roll off around 12Hz or so. Dirac works in Direct mode for music and obviously works for multi-channel movies. To this point Dirac shows that it can do something at that level, I have a dedicated, treated exceptionally quiet room. Perhaps most people have noisy environments so Dirac now limits their EQ to 20Hz to better serve the majority of their customers. To me it is a loss. To others it may be an improvement. I have not changed my Dirac setting in over a year and were it not for the fact I have new main speakers on order I would leave the system as is. The UMIK-1 microphone with the Cross Spectrum calibration measures from 5Hz to 25kHz compared to the typical factory 10Hz-20Hz to 20kHz calibration and Cross Spectrum provides two off axis calibration files while the factory only provides an on axis calibration. I do not know what data you were looking at. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 27, 2022 12:33:55 GMT -5
Amount of content below 20hz is minimal. Overtones extend an octave or more higher. And just WHAT is that content supposed to sound like? You're apparently the only one who knows! My sub has output down to the low note of a pipe organ....16hz...or so.....(actually fractionally higher) while still being musical. But I do NOT turn it up for that. I'm certain some bigtime subs would do this note at a much higher level and still be musical....My poor old HSU is right at the lower limit. But for movies? Very good. All the effects are THERE. I don't know about louder / better? But I'm perfectly happy and would not go into obsess mode. At those Ultra Low Frequencies, you are encountering several issues. Room? Ambient 'noise'? Dimensions?/ Resonance? Have fun and continue posting your 'calibration of the week' until you tire of it and just LISTEN and WATCH......It's actually more fun that way... I might add that I have a question? What does DIRAC know that most of the rest of us DON'T? Why did they change the lower limit? I have also looked at half a dozen or MORE measurement microphones...from the UMIK series to Beringer and more.....NONE are rated below 20hz and NONE specify a tolerance. (like 20-20,000 +-4db) expecting everyone to be happy with the calibration file......Minimal mention of 'pattern', too....which helps 'aim' the mic for proper measurments and use OF the cal file..... <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> I would not debate the marginal benefits of having response to 16Hz from a content perspective. Indeed, we're talking about an organ pipe and that's about it. Not likely any LFE down there. The benefit is in having (what's the opposite of headroom?) "elbow room"? So that the subs perform uniformly and without undue effort down to 20Hz. My complaint is illustrated in the screen shot. Because they won't let me pull the curtain to 16, I have an 8db bump at 20 that tapers up to 24. After many iterations of calibrations with Dirac, I have found I need some room at the low end to get the response uniform down to 20. That's really my goal. Because you can get LFE down to 20-25Hz. And, I use the curtains and target points not to prevent correction below 20Hz, but to purposely roll it off to avoid any subsonics rumbling the subs or causing distortion. When I loaded an old project but did not load my custom target curves, Dirac showed me this predicted response. Yeah, a little squirrely around 20Hz, but better than that big bump. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> However ... I have not yet tried to go all the way to filter export and REW measurements with 3.2.1 so I don't know what the actual results will be. Hopefully soon ... Interesting info. Your depth of understanding is impressive. Have you attempted to write the rolloff you need into your custom curve? I know Dirac could do that. I do not know if the way they now limit the curtain also eliminated that function. I think Jerry Austin gave an example of how to do it in his booklet on Custom Dirac Curves. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 27, 2022 13:09:44 GMT -5
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> I would not debate the marginal benefits of having response to 16Hz from a content perspective. Indeed, we're talking about an organ pipe and that's about it. Not likely any LFE down there. The benefit is in having (what's the opposite of headroom?) "elbow room"? So that the subs perform uniformly and without undue effort down to 20Hz. My complaint is illustrated in the screen shot. Because they won't let me pull the curtain to 16, I have an 8db bump at 20 that tapers up to 24. After many iterations of calibrations with Dirac, I have found I need some room at the low end to get the response uniform down to 20. That's really my goal. Because you can get LFE down to 20-25Hz. And, I use the curtains and target points not to prevent correction below 20Hz, but to purposely roll it off to avoid any subsonics rumbling the subs or causing distortion. When I loaded an old project but did not load my custom target curves, Dirac showed me this predicted response. Yeah, a little squirrely around 20Hz, but better than that big bump. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> However ... I have not yet tried to go all the way to filter export and REW measurements with 3.2.1 so I don't know what the actual results will be. Hopefully soon ... Interesting info. Your depth of understanding is impressive. Have you attempted to write the rolloff you need into your custom curve? I know Dirac could do that. I do not know if the way they now limit the curtain also eliminated that function. I think Jerry Austin gave an example of how to do it in his booklet on Custom Dirac Curves. I create the curves in Dirac by adding control points and dragging them around. To help with experimenting with curves, when I do a Dirac calibration, on the Measurements screen and BEFORE selecting Filter Design, I save a project and call it Measurements. This way I have the set of measurements and - very importantly - BEFORE the preprocessing that Dirac does when you go to the Filter Design screen. So then if I want to tweak the target curves, I open the Measurements project, go to Filter Design, adjust the targets, and save the filters again. Here's an example from about a year ago. The measured response of all channels, the target curves I created, and the predicted response. Actual response was not that flat of course, but achieved the intent. .    |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 27, 2022 13:52:22 GMT -5
Interesting info. Your depth of understanding is impressive. Have you attempted to write the rolloff you need into your custom curve? I know Dirac could do that. I do not know if the way they now limit the curtain also eliminated that function. I think Jerry Austin gave an example of how to do it in his booklet on Custom Dirac Curves. I create the curves in Dirac by adding control points and dragging them around. To help with experimenting with curves, when I do a Dirac calibration, on the Measurements screen and BEFORE selecting Filter Design, I save a project and call it Measurements. This way I have the set of measurements and - very importantly - BEFORE the preprocessing that Dirac does when you go to the Filter Design screen. So then if I want to tweak the target curves, I open the Measurements project, go to Filter Design, adjust the targets, and save the filters again. Here's an example from about a year ago. The measured response of all channels, the target curves I created, and the predicted response. Actual response was not that flat of course, but achieved the intent. .<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button><button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button><button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> I know you prefer a "flat" curve. Did you ever experiment with a curve that boosted the bass for home theater use? |
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Post by marcl on Jan 27, 2022 14:47:21 GMT -5
I create the curves in Dirac by adding control points and dragging them around. To help with experimenting with curves, when I do a Dirac calibration, on the Measurements screen and BEFORE selecting Filter Design, I save a project and call it Measurements. This way I have the set of measurements and - very importantly - BEFORE the preprocessing that Dirac does when you go to the Filter Design screen. So then if I want to tweak the target curves, I open the Measurements project, go to Filter Design, adjust the targets, and save the filters again. Here's an example from about a year ago. The measured response of all channels, the target curves I created, and the predicted response. Actual response was not that flat of course, but achieved the intent. .<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button><button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button><button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> I know you prefer a "flat" curve. Did you ever experiment with a curve that boosted the bass for home theater use? Oh I've tried it all!  10 years of measuring and listening and tweaking. In my room, with my gear and to my ear ... boosting the bass sounds bloated, especially for the music (classical, jazz, etc.) that I listen to. As for home theater, I feel that the flat curve is sufficient and accurate, and living in a condo I don't want to push my luck with the neighbors. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 27, 2022 15:07:31 GMT -5
I know you prefer a "flat" curve. Did you ever experiment with a curve that boosted the bass for home theater use? Oh I've tried it all!  10 years of measuring and listening and tweaking. In my room, with my gear and to my ear ... boosting the bass sounds bloated, especially for the music (classical, jazz, etc.) that I listen to. As for home theater, I feel that the flat curve is sufficient and accurate, and living in a condo I don't want to push my luck with the neighbors. I know your 3.7's reflect off the side wall and you must be creative to measure them properly with Dirac. If you have a standard placement for the Maggies do you have to do anything differently, relative to Dirac, than you would with other speakers? |
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Post by marcl on Jan 27, 2022 15:13:29 GMT -5
Oh I've tried it all! 10 years of measuring and listening and tweaking. In my room, with my gear and to my ear ... boosting the bass sounds bloated, especially for the music (classical, jazz, etc.) that I listen to. As for home theater, I feel that the flat curve is sufficient and accurate, and living in a condo I don't want to push my luck with the neighbors. I know your 3.7's reflect off the side wall and you must be creative to measure them properly with Dirac. If you have a standard placement for the Maggies do you have to do anything differently, relative to Dirac, than you would with other speakers? No issues with conventional speaker placement. Dirac does a great job without any trickery. In fact I have a CC5 center with DWM, MC1 surrounds, and MMGW top front Atmos speakers. Dirac handles thwm just fin, corrects impulse response and aligns them perfectly. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 27, 2022 15:28:34 GMT -5
Oh I've tried it all! 10 years of measuring and listening and tweaking. In my room, with my gear and to my ear ... boosting the bass sounds bloated, especially for the music (classical, jazz, etc.) that I listen to. As for home theater, I feel that the flat curve is sufficient and accurate, and living in a condo I don't want to push my luck with the neighbors. I know your 3.7's reflect off the side wall and you must be creative to measure them properly with Dirac. If you have a standard placement for the Maggies do you have to do anything differently, relative to Dirac, than you would with other speakers? Many years ago.....maybe 5 decades! I lived in apartments and had a good stereo. In those days? JBL4311 copies made by RSL here in Southern California. They were regarded well enough that more than a few pair found their way into Studio Use. I had the 3600s which had a better (dome) tweeter. 12" 3 way was the norm back than for a large home speaker. But what do to about the neighbors? When Moving to a new flat? I'd convince the neighbors I was HARD OF HEARING. Then when I turned it UP, they'd know why. The TRICK? Do NOT abuse this privilage. I'd NEVER crank after maybe 7pm or 8pm and NEVER before maybe NOON. You had to really control yourself so you didn't respond to a noise or voice you should NOT hear! Try THAT if you can. Works the charm..... NOBODY ever thought to question a partially DEAF Audiophile.......I don't know why? For MY Nickel? Bloated bass MAY be the result of excess overlap between mains and sub. My mains / sub have NO overlap except as they naturally roll off. So the sub crosses at 45hz or so @24db octave and the MAINS cut off about 55hz @12db octave. No Conflict..... |
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10 years of measuring and listening and tweaking. In my room, with my gear and to my ear ... boosting the bass sounds bloated, especially for the music (classical, jazz, etc.) that I listen to. As for home theater, I feel that the flat curve is sufficient and accurate, and living in a condo I don't want to push my luck with the neighbors.
10 years of measuring and listening and tweaking. In my room, with my gear and to my ear ... boosting the bass sounds bloated, especially for the music (classical, jazz, etc.) that I listen to. As for home theater, I feel that the flat curve is sufficient and accurate, and living in a condo I don't want to push my luck with the neighbors.