Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 26, 2020 20:35:07 GMT -5
Think about like this. Dirac tells us to start to test pattern and the clock starts. We generate the test tones in the DSP, to the DAC, to the Amp, to the Speaker, to the Mic, clock stops. Now it knows how far away the speaker is. His setup is like this. Dirac says go and the clock starts. We generate the test tones in the DSP, to the DAC, to the Mini DSP, Analog to Digital conversion, to the second DSP, through any Time Delays he set, to the second DAC, to the Amp, to the subs, to the mic, clock stops. Now it thinks the subs are way farther away from everything else. So it sets their time delay to 0 and pushes all the other channels that far away. The overall phase and time alignment would not be ideal. Lonnie Are you saying these things are exclusive to Dirac, or are you just saying, in general, that a mindsp will add latency to any measurement instrument? Meaning.. They will all have to deal with it the same. REW sees this latency and it's just part of the measurement. the latter. Room correction systems are designed to be used with the particular piece of gear they run on. Internal latencies are easy to account for and subtract from the over time. But if you add any kind of post processing, then it will throw off the results during testing. Lonnie |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 26, 2020 20:38:04 GMT -5
I think that while the minidsp will align the subs relative to each other, there is no way to align the subs relative to the mains if Dirac doesn't do it internally. how does it when it doesn't know anything about the crossover? Bass management is turned off during testing. Also, it comes before Time Delays and EQs (Dirac). So the bass manager does not affect it. The exception to this is that you are handling some of the bass management after Dirac, thus it does play into the equations. Lonnie |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 26, 2020 20:39:10 GMT -5
What is your system config? 5.2.4, 7.1.6, 9.1.6? Lonnie 5.1.4 Center sub feeds input 1 and that feeds two channels of a sub amp. So why donโt you just use the Left and Right sub outputs on the processor. Then Dirac will test, correct and align each one separately. Lonnie |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 26, 2020 20:57:20 GMT -5
5.1.4 Center sub feeds input 1 and that feeds two channels of a sub amp. So why donโt you just use the Left and Right sub outputs on the processor. Then Dirac will test, correct and align each one separately. Lonnie Because they will be two stand alone subs irrespective of what each other are doing. If they were in excellent locations, among other things, this might work a bit better. Without DBC, Dirac doesn't know how to adjust one sub to level out a listening position in concert with another sub, correct? Maybe I've watched too many subwoofer integration videos over the years and I have it all wrong. Clearly I am doing something wrong because I'm struggling with a few of these things. |
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Post by Thunderduck on Jul 26, 2020 22:00:09 GMT -5
I don't have the Dirac kit yet so I cannot speak from personal experience, but what others are going through makes me wonder what kind of beta testing is done? It has been more than several weeks since 1.10 was deemed good enough to build on for the next level, actual Dirac use, but there are issues that almost make 2.0 a regression instead of improvement. How many beta testers are there and what kind of systems are they using to test on? Seems like some of the folks here that have had issues in the past and continue having issues should be used as beta testers. Maybe there is something different about their systems that could bring some of these issues out in the open before released to the rest of us.
I don't normally spout off like this, but after almost 2 years it seems like these problems should have been found and fixed long before these units were even released. I haven't had my RMC-1 nearly as long as some folks her have, but I can certainly understand their frustration. I have actually requested an RMA number on 2 different occasions but changed my mind because I liked the way the RMC sounded and figured that things could only get better. The way people are having issues with 2.0 makes me wonder if things will ever get better.
Sorry for the rant but just had to let off some steam.
Take care all and good luck.
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Post by megash0n on Jul 26, 2020 22:14:44 GMT -5
I've been feeling like all day today, my non Dirac preset has had similar characteristics that ive described getting after running Dirac and pushing the filters down. I've been on a non Dirac preset all night. I just turned on the rain I listen to while sleeping every night and was shocked to have had to turn it up 10 dB to be as loud as it has been for months. I have it all automated, so I know exactly what volume level I use. It is always at -47 and sometimes I'll even turn it down to -48 or 49. It's sitting at -37 tonight. I think we'll be doing another factory reset tomorrow. ๐
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 26, 2020 22:53:31 GMT -5
What I mean is that all the channels you want tested need to be configured, Fronts, Center, Side, Rear, Heights/Tops/Dolby Enabled, etc. Whether how heights are set makes a difference might be an interesting discussion, I think not -- meaning you could have separate Dolby and DTS settings in the same preset -- but maybe someone has an idea why that wouldn't work. It's true that levels, distance, size and crossover are irrelevant to the measurements, but as soon as it's done size and crossover will make a difference, whereas levels and distance won't (and I always leave levels at 0). Thanks, I could probably word that better, I'll ponder it. ๐คSeparate Dolby and DTS setting can only be done with two presets. Thatโs why it would have been ALOT better if we had 4-5 presets with 2 Dirac settings in each instead of the current 2 presets with 3 Dirac in each. We need different speaker settings for the height speakers. Speakers physically located at top position is called heights in DTS. Dolbyโs Front height position does not exist in DTS. Best would be if the processor handled this internally if DTS is played. This means if you have top speakers (setup according to Dolby recomendation) they should be set to heights when playing DTS:X/Neural:X. If you have front/rear heights (setup according to Dolby recomendation) DTS expects them to be at top position, this is a problem. I agree, more presets would be better, but we have to work with what we have. I have an entirely different system setup on Preset 2 and donโt have the luxury of using it for DTS. So the best I could do is manually switch between tops and heights before playing a DTS disk. The question remains if having your speakers set to Tops or Heights affects the measurement, if it doesnโt then the filters created would be Dolby/DTS agnostic, and manually switching like I describe should work. The auto-system-switch would of course be very nice. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 26, 2020 23:39:07 GMT -5
The question remains if having your speakers set to Tops or Heights affects the measurement, if it doesnโt then the filters created would be Dolby/DTS agnostic, and manually switching like I describe should work. The auto-system-switch would of course be very nice. I'm not certain what to make of this yet, but I just tried something that is interesting at least, and I have a theory. If the speaker configuration - how many channels - doesn't match what is saved in a Dirac Project then the file won't load, it will fail. I changed the Front Height from Sm Top Front to Sm Front Height, and the Project file loads with a message stating "Did not load volume settings; speaker configuration did not match saved settings." It's the same kind of message that appears if you load a project but don't have a mic attached. So the file loads, and all the measurements are there. I don't know what the "volume settings" are that the message is referring to, but I suspect is has to do with the mic/speaker volume setup for taking measurements. My theory is that if we want to change which kind of Front Height a speaker is that it doesn't change the fact that this particular speaker is calibrated. I believe that the calibration is tied to the Main Designation of "Front Height", and that the naming convention which follows is only for tying the name to a decoder channel. Put another way, the calibration of a speaker doesn't change if I change what it's called in the speaker setup. edit: Something I might do in a day or so is check this with REW. |
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Post by davidl81 on Jul 27, 2020 1:54:45 GMT -5
Ok, so Iโm on a flight right now I I tried to read through all of this info. Here is my plan and let me know if Iโve got this down. 1) Install FW 2.0 2) Restore RMC-1 3) Set up active speakers, but leave levels and distance at 0 4) Set sub gain at โ50%โ? 5) Run Dirac and take 7000 measurements (Iโm drinking wine on this flight so cut me some slack) 6) My biggest question. Use Dirac House curve or use one of the Harmon curves. I donโt know what is the best option on this one. 7) Post on this forum and complain about how something does not work right. Let me know if this all makes sense. One more question, should I set all my speakers to small except for my L/R, or set all of them to large and run Dirac? What crossover slope do mist prefer? 2.0 installed without a hitch and seems to be just as fast as 1.10 was for me. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 27, 2020 6:00:05 GMT -5
I got my CSL Umik-1 over the weekend and decided to use it to create a Preset 2 filter. I went through the process, Dirac said it completed and was loaded and saved.
When I got out of Dirac, I had to reboot the XMC-2 because it was "stuck". Looking at the Preset 2 filter, it appears that it did not load. I tried to load the filter that was saved on my Macbook, but Dirac gave me a message stating it could not load the file...I don't remember the exact wording as to why, something about "six channels".
I'm assuming I need to re-do my Dirac measurements. Is that correct?
Sorry if this doesn't make any sense.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 27, 2020 6:17:53 GMT -5
I don't have the Dirac kit yet so I cannot speak from personal experience, but what others are going through makes me wonder what kind of beta testing is done? It has been more than several weeks since 1.10 was deemed good enough to build on for the next level, actual Dirac use, but there are issues that almost make 2.0 a regression instead of improvement. How many beta testers are there and what kind of systems are they using to test on? Seems like some of the folks here that have had issues in the past and continue having issues should be used as beta testers. Maybe there is something different about their systems that could bring some of these issues out in the open before released to the rest of us. I don't normally spout off like this, but after almost 2 years it seems like these problems should have been found and fixed long before these units were even released. I haven't had my RMC-1 nearly as long as some folks her have, but I can certainly understand their frustration. I have actually requested an RMA number on 2 different occasions but changed my mind because I liked the way the RMC sounded and figured that things could only get better. The way people are having issues with 2.0 makes me wonder if things will ever get better. Sorry for the rant but just had to let off some steam. Take care all and good luck. There is a beta program and the testers are Lounge volunteers using their own systems. There are also people here who have had no issues with creating, loading, and running Dirac. There are also folks that are running into problems beyond my understanding. There are people (like me), where it's been a learning curve. It's not as simple as running a room correction system from a mainstream manufacturer where you plug in your supplied mic into the receiver or processor and follow the directions on screen. I would look at the links and instructions on the first page and even print them out so that you have them as you go through the process. I was able to run Dirac after some trial and error (on my part) originally using the supplied Emotiva mic. I kept getting a low signals error message until a realized that I was defaulted to my Macbook internal mic. I switched to the EMM-1 listed and was able to continue. Setting the mic gain, overall volume, and then individual speaker levels within the Dirac program is fairly straightforward, but you have to make sure the gain is high enough, but not too high (in the Green), and that all the speakers are leveled as closely as possible. I had a clipping problem on a couple of speakers. Learning curve. Once that is all set up (take your time), and the house is quiet, the rest of the time is taken up moving the mic and recording the output. As to whether all this should have been vetted prior to the release of the units....might have been easier if Emotiva had chosen an integrated Audessey system, but then they would not have been different than anyone else. Not to make excuses, but Dirac is also to blame for the delays. Emotiva did not plan on a two year deployment...."The best laid plans of mice and men". |
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Post by kahodges1721 on Jul 27, 2020 6:34:26 GMT -5
I got my CSL Umik-1 over the weekend and decided to use it to create a Preset 2 filter. I went through the process, Dirac said it completed and was loaded and saved. When I got out of Dirac, I had to reboot the XMC-2 because it was "stuck". Looking at the Preset 2 filter, it appears that it did not load. I tried to load the filter that was saved on my Macbook, but Dirac gave me a message stating it could not load the file...I don't remember the exact wording as to why, something about "six channels". I'm assuming I need to re-do my Dirac measurements. Is that correct? Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. If the measurements saved to the computer side you could try to just load the filter set and see if it will take the second time. Unless the files are somehow corrupted which is possible then new measurements might be needed. Another option might be to remove any filters and start with base measurements again and see if t will generate properly. Prob tried these but this is what I would try before taking new measurements as itโs pretty time consuming for sure |
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 27, 2020 6:36:29 GMT -5
Separate Dolby and DTS setting can only be done with two presets. Thatโs why it would have been ALOT better if we had 4-5 presets with 2 Dirac settings in each instead of the current 2 presets with 3 Dirac in each. We need different speaker settings for the height speakers. Speakers physically located at top position is called heights in DTS. Dolbyโs Front height position does not exist in DTS. Best would be if the processor handled this internally if DTS is played. This means if you have top speakers (setup according to Dolby recomendation) they should be set to heights when playing DTS:X/Neural:X. If you have front/rear heights (setup according to Dolby recomendation) DTS expects them to be at top position, this is a problem. I agree, more presets would be better, but we have to work with what we have. I have an entirely different system setup on Preset 2 and donโt have the luxury of using it for DTS. So the best I could do is manually switch between tops and heights before playing a DTS disk. The question remains if having your speakers set to Tops or Heights affects the measurement, if it doesnโt then the filters created would be Dolby/DTS agnostic, and manually switching like I describe should work. The auto-system-switch would of course be very nice. No it shouldnโt affect measurements because you do not move the speaker. But you would have to have one dirac setting with tops and another one with heights. Iโm quite sure you cannot have both these settings in the same preset?! Itโs all about angles and azimuth. Internal expectations of the DTS decoder.. Some preproโs handle this internally, others have more speaker setting. IMO if a manufacturer cares about sound quality and its customers they should fix every speaker setting for DTS internally. You shouldnโt have to have separate settings to get optimal sound qualty. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 27, 2020 6:58:33 GMT -5
I got my CSL Umik-1 over the weekend and decided to use it to create a Preset 2 filter. I went through the process, Dirac said it completed and was loaded and saved. When I got out of Dirac, I had to reboot the XMC-2 because it was "stuck". Looking at the Preset 2 filter, it appears that it did not load. I tried to load the filter that was saved on my Macbook, but Dirac gave me a message stating it could not load the file...I don't remember the exact wording as to why, something about "six channels". I'm assuming I need to re-do my Dirac measurements. Is that correct? Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. If the measurements saved to the computer side you could try to just load the filter set and see if it will take the second time. Unless the files are somehow corrupted which is possible then new measurements might be needed. Another option might be to remove any filters and start with base measurements again and see if t will generate properly. Prob tried these but this is what I would try before taking new measurements as itโs pretty time consuming for sure Yeah, I tried to load the filter from the computer using Dirac and that's where I got the cannot load message. I also tried to load the original saved file that I generated sucessfully the first time and I got the same error message. I think I may have to do it all over again. The question becomes, is it possible to load a saved file later on or after the fact? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 7:52:28 GMT -5
If the measurements saved to the computer side you could try to just load the filter set and see if it will take the second time. Unless the files are somehow corrupted which is possible then new measurements might be needed. Another option might be to remove any filters and start with base measurements again and see if t will generate properly. Prob tried these but this is what I would try before taking new measurements as itโs pretty time consuming for sure Yeah, I tried to load the filter from the computer using Dirac and that's where I got the cannot load message. I also tried to load the original saved file that I generated sucessfully the first time and I got the same error message. I think I may have to do it all over again. The question becomes, is it possible to load a saved file later on or after the fact? The amount of speakers in the saved file has to match the current Preset chosen, otherwise the file will not load into the Dirac app. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 7:57:33 GMT -5
I've been feeling like all day today, my non Dirac preset has had similar characteristics that ive described getting after running Dirac and pushing the filters down. I've been on a non Dirac preset all night. I just turned on the rain I listen to while sleeping every night and was shocked to have had to turn it up 10 dB to be as loud as it has been for months. I have it all automated, so I know exactly what volume level I use. It is always at -47 and sometimes I'll even turn it down to -48 or 49. It's sitting at -37 tonight. I think we'll be doing another factory reset tomorrow. ๐ I have confirmed this morning. A hard reset, which took doing it twice because the NIC stopped working after the first, and the volume returned to normal. It was in fact 10dB lower until I rebooted. This confirms what I suspected yesterday. When you select a Dirac preset, something is bleeding over globally on the system affecting sound and volume level. You can switch back to a non Dirac preset all day long and it won't matter. After a full power cycle, the non Dirac presets seem to be normal again. Lonnie, can you tell us if anyone else has reported this? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 8:04:26 GMT -5
Ok, so Iโm on a flight right now I I tried to read through all of this info. Here is my plan and let me know if Iโve got this down. 1) Install FW 2.0 2) Restore RMC-1 3) Set up active speakers, but leave levels and distance at 0 4) Set sub gain at โ50%โ? 5) Run Dirac and take 7000 measurements (Iโm drinking wine on this flight so cut me some slack) 6) My biggest question. Use Dirac House curve or use one of the Harmon curves. I donโt know what is the best option on this one. 7) Post on this forum and complain about how something does not work right. Let me know if this all makes sense. One more question, should I set all my speakers to small except for my L/R, or set all of them to large and run Dirac? What crossover slope do mist prefer? 2.0 installed without a hitch and seems to be just as fast as 1.10 was for me. Large or Small does not matter for measurements, but you might as well set them, I do. Dirac measures everything as full range. Crossover also does not matter, but there's no reason not to set these if you want to. edit: I posted this a few days ago but it bears repeating. The only speaker setting Dirac cares about is which speakers are active so it knows which speakers will be measured and calibrated. Dirac ignores Speaker Crossover settings during measurements. Dirac will measure each speaker full range. Set the crossover settings to what you want after Dirac is finished. Dirac ignores Speaker Distance during measurements. Distance doesn't show up after a Dirac filter is active. So Distance doesn't matter for Dirac. Dirac ignores Speaker Levels during measurements. Dirac will measure the same no matter what the levels are in the D3P Menu. Set the levels to what you want after Dirac is finished. You will find that a setting at or near zero will be the final setting. No D3P Menu setting other than which speakers are active matter for Dirac measurements. Only settings within the Dirac app will affect the how the Filter is created. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 27, 2020 8:27:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I tried to load the filter from the computer using Dirac and that's where I got the cannot load message. I also tried to load the original saved file that I generated sucessfully the first time and I got the same error message. I think I may have to do it all over again. The question becomes, is it possible to load a saved file later on or after the fact? The amount of speakers in the saved file has to match the current Preset chosen, otherwise the file will not load into the Dirac app. So, let me understand....I ran Dirac....renamed the file to "Preset 1 - 5.1"...it loaded into the XMC-2 and is reflected as such in the menu. I have a 5.1 system...i.e., 6 speakers. I tried to load the saved file from my computer, i.e., "Preset 1 - 5.1" back into the Dirac program and was told it cannot load because of six speakers..... I also tried to load the other saved file that never made it to the XMC-2 and got the same message......totally confused, and it's probably just me. |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 27, 2020 8:31:52 GMT -5
I've been feeling like all day today, my non Dirac preset has had similar characteristics that ive described getting after running Dirac and pushing the filters down. I've been on a non Dirac preset all night. I just turned on the rain I listen to while sleeping every night and was shocked to have had to turn it up 10 dB to be as loud as it has been for months. I have it all automated, so I know exactly what volume level I use. It is always at -47 and sometimes I'll even turn it down to -48 or 49. It's sitting at -37 tonight. I think we'll be doing another factory reset tomorrow. ๐ I have confirmed this morning. A hard reset, which took doing it twice because the NIC stopped working after the first, and the volume returned to normal. It was in fact 10dB lower until I rebooted. This confirms what I suspected yesterday. When you select a Dirac preset, something is bleeding over globally on the system affecting sound and volume level. You can switch back to a non Dirac preset all day long and it won't matter. After a full power cycle, the non Dirac presets seem to be normal again. Lonnie, can you tell us if anyone else has reported this? Yes, this is called volume normalization. Dirac sets a level that it thinks to be appropriate to allow for headroom so all other Non-Dirac will also be at that level so you don't get these wild 10db jumps. Pretty straightforward. It does not affect the sound, it only affects the volume control and the processor has a TON of drive, so ignore the number, it is just that a number.  Lonnie |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 27, 2020 8:35:10 GMT -5
I've been feeling like all day today, my non Dirac preset has had similar characteristics that ive described getting after running Dirac and pushing the filters down. I've been on a non Dirac preset all night. I just turned on the rain I listen to while sleeping every night and was shocked to have had to turn it up 10 dB to be as loud as it has been for months. I have it all automated, so I know exactly what volume level I use. It is always at -47 and sometimes I'll even turn it down to -48 or 49. It's sitting at -37 tonight. I think we'll be doing another factory reset tomorrow. ๐ I have confirmed this morning. A hard reset, which took doing it twice because the NIC stopped working after the first, and the volume returned to normal. It was in fact 10dB lower until I rebooted. This confirms what I suspected yesterday. When you select a Dirac preset, something is bleeding over globally on the system affecting sound and volume level. You can switch back to a non Dirac preset all day long and it won't matter. After a full power cycle, the non Dirac presets seem to be normal again. Lonnie, can you tell us if anyone else has reported this? I noticed yesterday that my Preset 2 sound level is much higher than my Preset 1 (Dirac). I had tried to do a filter with my new CSL Umik-1, but for some reason it wasn''t saved to the XMC-2....then it was late and I went to bed. I think I did a hard rest, but didn't compare. Will take a look (listen) again today. |
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