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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 8:42:57 GMT -5
I have confirmed this morning. A hard reset, which took doing it twice because the NIC stopped working after the first, and the volume returned to normal. It was in fact 10dB lower until I rebooted. This confirms what I suspected yesterday. When you select a Dirac preset, something is bleeding over globally on the system affecting sound and volume level. You can switch back to a non Dirac preset all day long and it won't matter. After a full power cycle, the non Dirac presets seem to be normal again. Lonnie, can you tell us if anyone else has reported this? Yes, this is called volume normalization. Dirac sets a level that it thinks to be appropriate to allow for headroom so all other Non-Dirac will also be at that level so you don't get these wild 10db jumps. Pretty straightforward. It does not affect the sound, it only affects the volume control and the processor has a TON of drive, so ignore the number, it is just that a number.  Lonnie I hear you, but why would this impact anything outside of the Dirac Preset. Given that DTS is already so much lower, this seems like an issue to me. I was in the positive numbers yesterday listening to a DTS track. Also, it only engages when engaging the Dirac preset after a fresh boot. So, it seems Dirac is turning this volume control on when activated. Why can it not turn it back off? Lastly, are you minimizing this volume control thing to make it more general because I'm confused. I don't understand how a global volume shift fixes anything. I'm just going to turn it right back up. Logically, I would think it is volume control on a per channel basis. This makes sense. Kinda. If that's the case, then obviously we would not want this happening on presets not using Dirac. |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 8:44:25 GMT -5
The amount of speakers in the saved file has to match the current Preset chosen, otherwise the file will not load into the Dirac app. So, let me understand....I ran Dirac....renamed the file to "Preset 1 - 5.1"...it loaded into the XMC-2 and is reflected as such in the menu. I have a 5.1 system...i.e., 6 speakers. I tried to load the saved file from my computer, i.e., "Preset 1 - 5.1" back into the Dirac program and was told it cannot load because of six speakers..... I also tried to load the other saved file that never made it to the XMC-2 and got the same message......totally confused, and it's probably just me. Sorry to confuse. I was just trying to point out that mismatched speaker layouts will not load. If you've only done the one project, then it should load. Different issue. This is a Dirac problem. Are you running the latest version of Dirac? 3.0 had issues. I had problems with failed loading of saved Projects with that version. If you are running the latest version, then I'm stumped. Probably need reboots for computer and processor, and while your at it make sure the mic is connected because this can cause some issues, shouldn't, but it has. |
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 27, 2020 8:46:50 GMT -5
So, let me understand....I ran Dirac....renamed the file to "Preset 1 - 5.1"...it loaded into the XMC-2 and is reflected as such in the menu. I have a 5.1 system...i.e., 6 speakers. I tried to load the saved file from my computer, i.e., "Preset 1 - 5.1" back into the Dirac program and was told it cannot load because of six speakers..... I also tried to load the other saved file that never made it to the XMC-2 and got the same message......totally confused, and it's probably just me. Sorry to confuse. I was just trying to point out that mismatched speaker layouts will not load. If you've only done the one project, then it should load. Different issue. This is a Dirac problem. Are you running the latest version of Dirac? 3.0 had issues. I had problems with failed loading of saved Projects with that version. If you are running the latest version, then I'm stumped. Probably need reboots for computer and processor, and while your at it make sure the mic is connected because this can cause some issues, shouldn't, but it has. I'm probably not on the latest version of Dirac. Maybe that's the problem. I'll load the latest tonight when I get home. Fingers crossed! if I'm lucky this will save me time. Do I need to do anything special to load the latest? So I got home and downloaded the latest version of Dirac.....went to pull in a filter that I had saved on the computer and load, same error message. Says my file has six speakers and doesn't match. Befuddling.......so it looks like I will have to find time to take new Dirac measurements.....hard to do with the AC running and my wife home. |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 8:48:26 GMT -5
Sorry to confuse. I was just trying to point out that mismatched speaker layouts will not load. If you've only done the one project, then it should load. Different issue. This is a Dirac problem. Are you running the latest version of Dirac? 3.0 had issues. I had problems with failed loading of saved Projects with that version. If you are running the latest version, then I'm stumped. Probably need reboots for computer and processor, and while your at it make sure the mic is connected because this can cause some issues, shouldn't, but it has. I'm probably not on the latest version of Dirac. Maybe that's the problem. I'll load the latest tonight when I get home. Fingers crossed! Do I need to do anything special to load the latest? Nope. Most folks just installed it and it overwrote the old with the new. I used the utility app included with Dirac to uninstall the old, but apparently that's not needed - at least on a Mac. edit: The current version is 3.0.2 on Dirac's site. |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 27, 2020 8:51:32 GMT -5
Yes, this is called volume normalization. Dirac sets a level that it thinks to be appropriate to allow for headroom so all other Non-Dirac will also be at that level so you don't get these wild 10db jumps. Pretty straightforward. It does not affect the sound, it only affects the volume control and the processor has a TON of drive, so ignore the number, it is just that a number. Lonnie I hear you, but why would this impact anything outside of the Dirac Preset. Given that DTS is already so much lower, this seems like an issue to me. I was in the positive numbers yesterday listening to a DTS track. It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 8:55:01 GMT -5
^^^^^^
FWIW I have never been able to get to 0.0dB on the Volume Level with the XMC-2. Highest I've gone for a very short period of time was -4dB, and that was 105dB SPL in my big room running only two speakers on tube amps.
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Post by richb on Jul 27, 2020 9:00:35 GMT -5
I hear you, but why would this impact anything outside of the Dirac Preset. Given that DTS is already so much lower, this seems like an issue to me. I was in the positive numbers yesterday listening to a DTS track. It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie I wonder if other processors hide this change altering the gain to make users feel better? - Rich |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 27, 2020 9:07:13 GMT -5
It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie I wonder if other processors hide this change altering the gain to make users feel better? - Rich Most likely. We are working on an algorithm to do just that, but being something completely new, it needs a lot of internal and beta testing before it gets released into the wild. Lonnie |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 9:08:45 GMT -5
I hear you, but why would this impact anything outside of the Dirac Preset. Given that DTS is already so much lower, this seems like an issue to me. I was in the positive numbers yesterday listening to a DTS track. It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie I do understand that logic. I think I'm more confused on why volume on all channels is reduced for headroom. If I was at -18 and now my normal is -8... Isn't the headroom the same.. Or, technically less because I will eventually run out of volume knob. |
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 27, 2020 9:09:39 GMT -5
I hear you, but why would this impact anything outside of the Dirac Preset. Given that DTS is already so much lower, this seems like an issue to me. I was in the positive numbers yesterday listening to a DTS track. It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie Is a hard reset required to normalize the volume as megashon had to do? |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 9:10:55 GMT -5
^^^^^^ FWIW I have never been able to get to 0.0dB on the Volume Level with the XMC-2. Highest I've gone for a very short period of time was -4dB, and that was 105dB SPL in my big room running only two speakers on tube amps. I was watching The Dark Knight Rises in the positive numbers yesterday thru one of my tests. I was already around -12 prior to Dirac. After my first filter test, it was worse. But, I know I am mostly to blame for the spl differences. |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 27, 2020 9:18:18 GMT -5
It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie I do understand that logic. I think I'm more confused on why volume on all channels is reduced for headroom. If I was at -18 and now my normal is -8... Isn't the headroom the same.. Or, technically less because I will eventually run out of volume knob. We have a ton of drive capability in the analog stage, the offset though comes from the Digital realm. You see a DSP cannot go positive, that is to say, If you "Boost" something in a DSP, all you are doing is leaving that item alone and reducing everything else around it. DSP can only work from 0 and down. Hope this helps Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 27, 2020 9:18:56 GMT -5
It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie Is a hard reset required to normalize the volume as megashon had to do? No, it is not. Lonnie |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 9:26:29 GMT -5
I do understand that logic. I think I'm more confused on why volume on all channels is reduced for headroom. If I was at -18 and now my normal is -8... Isn't the headroom the same.. Or, technically less because I will eventually run out of volume knob. We have a ton of drive capability in the analog stage, the offset though comes from the Digital realm. You see a DSP cannot go positive, that is to say, If you "Boost" something in a DSP, all you are doing is leaving that item alone and reducing everything else around it. DSP can only work from 0 and down. Hope this helps Lonnie So does this also explain why Neural:X is a lower volume? If so, then this would explain why there's not much difference anymore since Dirac. |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 27, 2020 9:31:45 GMT -5
We have a ton of drive capability in the analog stage, the offset though comes from the Digital realm. You see a DSP cannot go positive, that is to say, If you "Boost" something in a DSP, all you are doing is leaving that item alone and reducing everything else around it. DSP can only work from 0 and down. Hope this helps Lonnie So does this also explain why Neural:X is a lower volume? If so, then this would explain why there's not much difference anymore since Dirac. Yes, the same thing applies to it. Lonnie |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 9:36:05 GMT -5
At the moment I can’t use Reference Stereo because of a bug in RMC-1. There’s no sound coming from front wide bi-amp mode. I have sound coming from Front Width:: Bi Amp Front while in Reference Stereo. Do you have a trigger set to go on or off for different audio modes? If so, then just manually turn on the amp for the wides to check. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 9:41:16 GMT -5
It sets a base level of volume globally. Think about this. If we didn't do this here is what would happen on your system. You select Dirac, the volume drops 10db. You turn up the volume to watch something. You switch out of Dirac and now the volume jumps 10db and pops one of your speakers. Just my opinion here, but I think you would be more upset about the crazy volume jumps as you move in and out of Dirac then you are about just having to turn the volume up a bit more to get back to where you were. Lonnie Is a hard reset required to normalize the volume as megashon had to do? I would say it undone the normalization returning it back to where it was prior to enabling Dirac. Whether this is supposed to happen or not... It is happening. There is sat listening at -37. I killed the power and booted back up into the same preset. Now, I'm at -47 with the same output. If I select the Dirac preset, the non Dirac preset will be affected until I reboot again. I don't think it is just the volume either. Some of the deadness I have attempted to describe carries over as well. After a reboot, and staying clear of the Dirac preset, my system sounds very different than after engaging Dirac. Something else seems to linger. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 11:33:43 GMT -5
I agree, more presets would be better, but we have to work with what we have. I have an entirely different system setup on Preset 2 and don’t have the luxury of using it for DTS. So the best I could do is manually switch between tops and heights before playing a DTS disk. The question remains if having your speakers set to Tops or Heights affects the measurement, if it doesn’t then the filters created would be Dolby/DTS agnostic, and manually switching like I describe should work. The auto-system-switch would of course be very nice. But you would have to have one dirac setting with tops and another one with heights. I’m quite sure you cannot have both these settings in the same preset?! It’s all about angles and azimuth. Internal expectations of the DTS decoder.. Some prepro’s handle this internally, others have more speaker setting. IMO if a manufacturer cares about sound quality and its customers they should fix every speaker setting for DTS internally. You shouldn’t have to have separate settings to get optimal sound qualty. That’s what I believe as well, nothing physically changes with the speaker. What this further would mean is that the actual setting of ‘top’ or ‘height’ is somewhat of a switch or value, that is only used by the codec when processing the signal at playback. No, it is not possible to have separate settings for height and top within a preset, but if (as we surmise) the filter is the same for both, then I can manually change between tops and heights within a preset, depending on a Dolby or DTS source. If in the future there’s a better way to handle this that would be great (more presets, auto-switch), but for now, given my systems constraints, this is the best I can do. Really it should only take a minute or so. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 27, 2020 11:59:08 GMT -5
Regarding the issue of Tops vs Heights being selected, and whether Dirac will load a set of filters if you change from one to the other ....
I think the question is, does Dirac see which outputs are active - irrespective of the sub-configuration such as Top or Height? Or, does Dirac say "I measured the system with that output set to Top and now it's set to Height so I can't load it?
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 12:04:29 GMT -5
No it shouldn’t affect measurements because you do not move the speaker.But you would have to have one dirac setting with tops and another one with heights. I’m quite sure you cannot have both these settings in the same preset?! It’s all about angles and azimuth. Internal expectations of the DTS decoder.. Some prepro’s handle this internally, others have more speaker setting. IMO if a manufacturer cares about sound quality and its customers they should fix every speaker setting for DTS internally. You shouldn’t have to have separate settings to get optimal sound qualty. That’s what I believe as well, nothing physically changes with the speaker. What this further would mean is that the actual setting of ‘top’ or ‘height’ is somewhat of a switch or value, that is only used by the codec when processing the signal at playback. No, it is not possible to have separate settings for height and top within a preset, but if (as we surmise) the filter is the same for both, then I can manually change between tops and heights within a preset, depending on a Dolby or DTS source. If in the future there’s a better way to handle this that would be great (more presets, auto-switch), but for now, given my systems constraints, this is the best I can do. Really it should only take a minute or so. The assumption seems reasonable, but as we have seen how different the sound is by changing between Tops or Heights, without actually moving the speakers, one could conclude that Dirac anticipates a Top to sound different to a Height speaker. Someone will either have to test this or give a definitive statement. |
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