The Official Dirac Live Thread: Start w/1,2,3 🙋‍♂️

[AudioHTIT]

Jul 27, 2020 11:59:08 GMT -5 marcl said:

Regarding the issue of Tops vs Heights being selected, and whether Dirac will load a set of filters if you change from one to the other ....

I think the question is, does Dirac see which outputs are active - irrespective of the sub-configuration such as Top or Height? Or, does Dirac say "I measured the system with that output set to Top and now it's set to Height so I can't load it?

So I think you’re taking a different spin on this? I’m saying all filters created would be Atmos/DTS agnostic because the measurement process ignores the top/height settings (if that’s true). Are you saying that even if the measurement process ignores the settings, the ‘filter building’ process (selecting and tailoring the target curve) may be looking at them?

Then as you point out, another aspect is whether you can reload the project with the same speaker layout, but different top/height settings. If you could, and if the filter process uses those settings, then you could build separate Dolby and DTS filters within a single preset. Still a lot of ifs to figure out.

[ttocs]

Jul 27, 2020 11:59:08 GMT -5 marcl said:

Regarding the issue of Tops vs Heights being selected, and whether Dirac will load a set of filters if you change from one to the other ....

I think the question is, does Dirac see which outputs are active - irrespective of the sub-configuration such as Top or Height? Or, does Dirac say "I measured the system with that output set to Top and now it's set to Height so I can't load it?

I checked this last night.
Dirac will only fail to load a Project if the speaker layout is different in regards to the Main Speaker Locations. If Front Height is active, and measured, irrespective of the sub-designation, the Dirac will expect a Front Height to be there when you load that Project in the future.

Changing which "type" of Front Height doesn't seem to matter to Dirac. The Project will load, you can change whatever, and save it again, and load that into the processor.

It's like this. Channel 1 has three different choices for types of designations: a, b, and c. Dirac only cares about whether Channel 1 is On or Off, not whether it's set to 1a, 1b, or 1c.

The only thing that Dirac warns about when loading a Project where the subheading has changed is that the volume settings won't operate. My belief is that this is referring to the speaker volume setting in Dirac for how loud the sweeps will be during measurements.

[ttocs]

This is to show the messages Dirac has when things don't show up like it expects when loading a saved Project. I changed the Front Height from Sm Top Front to Dolby Enabled Front, and the Project loaded and is usable. 


Notice that nothing changed for Front Height in Dirac, it still says only Front Height.

[hsamwel]

Jul 27, 2020 9:36:05 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 24, 2020 14:07:17 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

At the moment I can’t use Reference Stereo because of a bug in RMC-1.
There’s no sound coming from front wide bi-amp mode. 

I have sound coming from Front Width:: Bi Amp Front while in Reference Stereo.

Do you have a trigger set to go on or off for different audio modes? If so, then just manually turn on the amp for the wides to check.

I have bi-amp front wides selected for both speaker presets.
It works fine with any sound mode except Reference Stereo.

I have no option in trigger for activating front width or front width bi-amp.
As I said, it simply works on other sound modes.

This has stayed the same between firmware updates, factory resets and power downs.

Although, I have Enhanced bass activated with large fronts. Can this cause any issue?
It shouldn’t though..

[klinemj]

So megash0n - while I don't have a G3P, I do have a lot of DIRAC experience via my XMC-1. The way you are reporting DIRAC makes your system sound is quite at odds with what I (and many others) have experienced. I don't dispute what you are hearing, but - it's just quite out of sync with experiences with DIRAC I am used to and used to hearing from others.

So, I keep thinking about what could be different, and the one thing that really stands out is that your G3P is in your bedroom. And, if I read correctly, you have only measured from 1 position. I keep wondering what kind of an acoustic effect the bed + your limited listening position options are having and what kind of havoc that might wreak for DIRAC - especially if only 1 position were measured. And, I presume when you are listening, you are listening sitting in bed with yourself upright propped up by the headboard (and likely against the back wall). Correct? While that does meet your use requirements, it seems like a very big acoustic challenge to get sounding right.

Lonnie - what do you think?

Mark

[ttocs]

Jul 27, 2020 12:52:34 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

Jul 27, 2020 9:36:05 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I have sound coming from Front Width:: Bi Amp Front while in Reference Stereo.

Do you have a trigger set to go on or off for different audio modes? If so, then just manually turn on the amp for the wides to check.

I have bi-amp front wides selected for both speaker presets.
It works fine with any sound mode except Reference Stereo.

I have no option in trigger for activating front width or front width bi-amp.
As I said, it simply works on other sound modes.

This has stayed the same between firmware updates, factory resets and power downs.

Although, I have Enhanced bass activated with large fronts. Can this cause any issue?
It shouldn’t though..

hmmmm, Enhanced Bass. Not using it, so I'll give it a try.

[megash0n]

Jul 27, 2020 12:36:26 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 27, 2020 11:59:08 GMT -5 marcl said:

Regarding the issue of Tops vs Heights being selected, and whether Dirac will load a set of filters if you change from one to the other ....

I think the question is, does Dirac see which outputs are active - irrespective of the sub-configuration such as Top or Height? Or, does Dirac say "I measured the system with that output set to Top and now it's set to Height so I can't load it?

I checked this last night.
Dirac will only fail to load a Project if the speaker layout is different in regards to the Main Speaker Locations. If Front Height is active, and measured, irrespective of the sub-designation, the Dirac will expect a Front Height to be there when you load that Project in the future.

Changing which "type" of Front Height doesn't seem to matter to Dirac. The Project will load, you can change whatever, and save it again, and load that into the processor.

It's like this. Channel 1 has three different choices for types of designations: a, b, and c. Dirac only cares about whether Channel 1 is On or Off, not whether it's set to 1a, 1b, or 1c.

The only thing that Dirac warns about when loading a Project where the subheading has changed is that the volume settings won't operate. My belief is that this is referring to the speaker volume setting in Dirac for how loud the sweeps will be during measurements.

I agree with your last sentence.

[AudioHTIT]

I don’t think a 10 dB change is level before and after Dirac is unreasonable; Dirac 1 on my XMC-1 was this way, as is the current Dirac on the G3P (I actually haven’t measured the exact number, but 10 is in the ballpark). This means I will be running my levels about 10 dB higher than before. The only downside for me is that my wife sometimes judges how loud things will be by the number that’s displayed, I’ve had to allay her fears that it will be too loud. 🙅‍♂️

[ttocs]

I confirmed that the warning message in Dirac when speaker config is changed is talking about the volume settings prior to measuring.

This shows the warning message and the result. Volume settings are not available. I only changed one setting. I changed Front Height from Sm Top Front to Lg Top Front.


This shows that the Volume settings are available when speaker settings all match the saved and loaded Project. I changed the speaker setting back to Sm Top Front so it matches how it was set when it was measured. (pay no attention to the settings, the mic was on the seat, this is for example only)

[megash0n]

Jul 27, 2020 13:12:16 GMT -5 klinemj said:

So megash0n - while I don't have a G3P, I do have a lot of DIRAC experience via my XMC-1. The way you are reporting DIRAC makes your system sound is quite at odds with what I (and many others) have experienced. I don't dispute what you are hearing, but - it's just quite out of sync with experiences with DIRAC I am used to and used to hearing from others.

So, I keep thinking about what could be different, and the one thing that really stands out is that your G3P is in your bedroom. And, if I read correctly, you have only measured from 1 position. I keep wondering what kind of an acoustic effect the bed + your limited listening position options are having and what kind of havoc that might wreak for DIRAC - especially if only 1 position were measured. And, I presume when you are listening, you are listening sitting in bed with yourself upright propped up by the headboard (and likely against the back wall). Correct? While that does meet your use requirements, it seems like a very big acoustic challenge to get sounding right.

Lonnie - what do you think?

Mark

yes sir. You are correct in most of that. My listening position isn't the most ideal for sure, but it does still sound great in general. I do have the memory foam bed which helps tame some bass. I have 6 4 inch thick panels. They treat the 1st and 2nd reflection points on the side wall and the 1st point on the ceiling. The room is roughly 24*16*9.5. While not a perfect environment, it is very serviceable. So, yes.. I expect to have less quality than I would in my actual theatre room. However, I can spend a couple hours with REW exporting filters for PEQ and be quite pleased with it. It sounds fantastic even though I know it could sound better. Are some of these things impacting Dirac in ways that wouldn't happen with REW? Probably. Am I doing something wrong? Probably. Likely. Do I know how to fix it? Probably not. The first measurements I did were using 9 points across the bed between my wife's side and mine. The second measurement was only 3 points across a three foot span at my seat just to test something. I'm going to measure again and ensure that I am not having anything raised by more than 1db, or not at all. I'm going to flatten the curve toward the treble end. I may leave a little curve on the bass side since my subs have a few peaks anyways. Basically, I'll pretty much follow what they are naturally doing. I'm going to attempt to do less eq and more alignment if you will. I hope this will bring back the sonic dynamics I'm used to hearing. If so, I will dig in more to figure out what I did wrong previously and adjust. I want it to work. I was actually very excited to have something do this calibration for me because I'm tired of trying to learn it all. I want to just enjoy the sound.

[marcl]

Jul 27, 2020 13:12:16 GMT -5 klinemj said:

So megash0n - while I don't have a G3P, I do have a lot of DIRAC experience via my XMC-1. The way you are reporting DIRAC makes your system sound is quite at odds with what I (and many others) have experienced. I don't dispute what you are hearing, but - it's just quite out of sync with experiences with DIRAC I am used to and used to hearing from others.

So, I keep thinking about what could be different, and the one thing that really stands out is that your G3P is in your bedroom. And, if I read correctly, you have only measured from 1 position. I keep wondering what kind of an acoustic effect the bed + your limited listening position options are having and what kind of havoc that might wreak for DIRAC - especially if only 1 position were measured. And, I presume when you are listening, you are listening sitting in bed with yourself upright propped up by the headboard (and likely against the back wall). Correct? While that does meet your use requirements, it seems like a very big acoustic challenge to get sounding right.

Lonnie - what do you think?

Mark

My experience with Dirac on the XMC-1 was also quite positive.  I also have a LOT of DIY bass traps in my room.

Megash0n and I have been texting back and forth on his observations and his room setup.   My thought on the effect of the bed is that it would only improve things in the room from the perspective of acting like a big bass trap.  The fact that it extends away from the wall so that lower frequency resonances would be absorbed would be a good thing.  Measuring a listening position close to the back wall would certainly reveal worst case room modes, but Dirac will fix those quite well.   From a bass perspective the listening position would be no problem and the bed itself likely an asset.

[hsamwel]

Jul 27, 2020 12:52:34 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

Jul 27, 2020 9:36:05 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I have sound coming from Front Width:: Bi Amp Front while in Reference Stereo.

Do you have a trigger set to go on or off for different audio modes? If so, then just manually turn on the amp for the wides to check.

I have bi-amp front wides selected for both speaker presets.
It works fine with any sound mode except Reference Stereo.

I have no option in trigger for activating front width or front width bi-amp.
As I said, it simply works on other sound modes.

This has stayed the same between firmware updates, factory resets and power downs.

Although, I have Enhanced bass activated with large fronts. Can this cause any issue?
It shouldn’t though..

Yes, it actually plays sound from bi-amp.. I cranked up the volume to -25db and switched
between bi-amp on and off.. I could clearly hear that it had ”some” bass.

But... I have very little bass, like the volume is 10db or more lower from the lower end.
If not lower in volume then cut off not playing the lowest frequencies.
Tried with Stereo mode, wow.. A lot of bass..
Thought this might be because of my subs..
So went into speaker settings, turned off the subs, checked that the fronts were set to large.
Again, a lot of bass in Stereo mode.. Thin, very thin in Reference Stereo.
Confirmed that only the fronts are playing in both modes.

I was wondering.. I now have two different manufacturers for my amps.. Anthem and Emotiva.
Anthem MCA225 for the top end and Emotiva XPA gen 3 2x300W for the low end.
Can there be a problem with the gain or something?
But then again, why would Stereo mode have full bass volume?
Btw Direct mode also have full bass volume.

It’s almost like RMC remembers the Enhanced bass crossover frequency of 50hz and cuts it
below only in Reference Stereo for the bi-amp speaker.

Edit: Makes no difference if I set fronts to small, turn off Enhanced bass or turn on/off the subs.

[AudioHTIT]

Jul 27, 2020 8:45:41 GMT -5 SticknStones said:

My wife and I bought our last retirement condo on Kent Island. I let her have Carte Blanche to decorate and remodel as she wished. I did run new electric behind the media cabinet and put in the recessed plug for HDMI and electric for TV. The surrounds are in the ceiling. I could not get her to give me center seating to the media equipment and have to sit on the couch and pull the TV and tilt my way.

I am not sure where I should put the Dirac measurements in this room. How if any should I compensate for ceiling speakers? Inside the cabinet is the XPA-3 and XMC as the Airmotiv are powered.

Thoughts, please? Click on the link to see the pictures.

link

Also, Looks like Flickr has a new platform and I am not sure how to provide an inline link that will render inside the post. Is anyone using a different App to share photos?

Thanks everyone.

So you might do at least two measurements, one ‘Narrow (9pt)’ just for you centered around your favorite seat, and then another wider measurement (up to 17pt) for you and your wife and possibly company. You could put narrow in Preset 1 for you and wide in Preset 2 for a group, they could then be selected by the remote.

Note: I answered this question from the Owners thread here.

[ttocs]

Jul 27, 2020 12:52:34 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

Jul 27, 2020 9:36:05 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I have sound coming from Front Width:: Bi Amp Front while in Reference Stereo.

Do you have a trigger set to go on or off for different audio modes? If so, then just manually turn on the amp for the wides to check.

I have bi-amp front wides selected for both speaker presets.
It works fine with any sound mode except Reference Stereo.

I have no option in trigger for activating front width or front width bi-amp.
As I said, it simply works on other sound modes.

This has stayed the same between firmware updates, factory resets and power downs.

Although, I have Enhanced bass activated with large fronts. Can this cause any issue?
It shouldn’t though..

Ok, so I have Front Width set to Bi Amp Fronts, and I Enabled Enhanced Bass. I get sound from the Wides while in Reference Stereo.

I don't recall if I asked, which firmware are you using? I'm on FW-2.0.

[AudioHTIT]

Jul 26, 2020 20:39:10 GMT -5 Lonnie said:

Jul 26, 2020 19:28:48 GMT -5 megash0n said:

5.1.4
Center sub feeds input 1 and that feeds two channels of a sub amp.

So why don’t you just use the Left and Right sub outputs on the processor. Then Dirac will test, correct and align each one separately.

Lonnie

As much as I like giving each sub its own channel and hooking them L&R, I have also switched to a Y cable from the center output, and feel the way Dirac handles the pair as a single sub is giving me smoother response and more low end extension (though I haven’t remeasured). Once we get DLBC 😮 I would likely put them back. (note: my two subs are perfectly symmetrical around Center and the MLP)

[hsamwel]

Jul 27, 2020 14:42:49 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 27, 2020 12:52:34 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

I have bi-amp front wides selected for both speaker presets.
It works fine with any sound mode except Reference Stereo.

I have no option in trigger for activating front width or front width bi-amp.
As I said, it simply works on other sound modes.

This has stayed the same between firmware updates, factory resets and power downs.

Although, I have Enhanced bass activated with large fronts. Can this cause any issue?
It shouldn’t though..

Ok, so I have Front Width set to Bi Amp Fronts, and I Enabled Enhanced Bass. I get sound from the Wides while in Reference Stereo.

I don't recall if I asked, which firmware are you using? I'm on FW-2.0.

Firmware 2.0.

Please read my previous comment.. Did a answer and quote to myself by mistake :-)

[megash0n]

Jul 27, 2020 14:47:17 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

Jul 26, 2020 20:39:10 GMT -5 Lonnie said:

So why don’t you just use the Left and Right sub outputs on the processor. Then Dirac will test, correct and align each one separately.

Lonnie

As much as I like giving each sub its own channel and hooking them L&R, I have also switched to a Y cable from the center output, and feel the way Dirac handles the pair as a single sub is giving me smoother response and more low end extension (though I haven’t remeasured). Once we get DLBC 😮 I would likely put them back. (note: my two subs are perfectly symmetrical around Center and the MLP)

definitely with DLBC. I use the minidsp so that I can make multiple subs work better together, and then integrate with the rest of the systems as a single sub. My subs are custom built, so I don't have phase controls. I need to manipulate all that prior to the subs. Right now, sub 2 is a few db lower and 7.2 ms delayed from sub 1. I can't confirm with REW that it measures considerable better with these changes recommended by MSO. I have no ideal how Dirac is handling the integration though.

[klinemj]

Jul 27, 2020 13:59:19 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Jul 27, 2020 13:12:16 GMT -5 klinemj said:

So megash0n - while I don't have a G3P, I do have a lot of DIRAC experience via my XMC-1. The way you are reporting DIRAC makes your system sound is quite at odds with what I (and many others) have experienced. I don't dispute what you are hearing, but - it's just quite out of sync with experiences with DIRAC I am used to and used to hearing from others.

So, I keep thinking about what could be different, and the one thing that really stands out is that your G3P is in your bedroom. And, if I read correctly, you have only measured from 1 position. I keep wondering what kind of an acoustic effect the bed + your limited listening position options are having and what kind of havoc that might wreak for DIRAC - especially if only 1 position were measured. And, I presume when you are listening, you are listening sitting in bed with yourself upright propped up by the headboard (and likely against the back wall). Correct? While that does meet your use requirements, it seems like a very big acoustic challenge to get sounding right.

Lonnie - what do you think?

Mark

yes sir. You are correct in most of that. My listening position isn't the most ideal for sure, but it does still sound great in general. I do have the memory foam bed which helps tame some bass. I have 6 4 inch thick panels. They treat the 1st and 2nd reflection points on the side wall and the 1st point on the ceiling. The room is roughly 24*16*9.5. While not a perfect environment, it is very serviceable. So, yes.. I expect to have less quality than I would in my actual theatre room. However, I can spend a couple hours with REW exporting filters for PEQ and be quite pleased with it. It sounds fantastic even though I know it could sound better. Are some of these things impacting Dirac in ways that wouldn't happen with REW? Probably. Am I doing something wrong? Probably. Likely. Do I know how to fix it? Probably not. The first measurements I did were using 9 points across the bed between my wife's side and mine. The second measurement was only 3 points across a three foot span at my seat just to test something. I'm going to measure again and ensure that I am not having anything raised by more than 1db, or not at all. I'm going to flatten the curve toward the treble end. I may leave a little curve on the bass side since my subs have a few peaks anyways. Basically, I'll pretty much follow what they are naturally doing. I'm going to attempt to do less eq and more alignment if you will. I hope this will bring back the sonic dynamics I'm used to hearing. If so, I will dig in more to figure out what I did wrong previously and adjust. I want it to work. I was actually very excited to have something do this calibration for me because I'm tired of trying to learn it all. I want to just enjoy the sound.

The normal way of measuring for DIRAC in multiple positions is based on assuming traditional seating, so I don't know what they would reco for sitting on a bed. That might be worth asking DIRAC.

As marcl notes, the bed is likely acting as a large trap. He notes for bass, but with memory foam plus the various bedding materials - it might be trapping a lot of frequencies. As far as DIRAC doing something different than REW...it just might be. DIRAC accounts for both frequency and time domain effects. These are some very complicated filters, much like I used to work with on process controls in my Chemical Engineering training and work. The math used to develop such filters have embedded assumptions for the physics in play during the expected in-use situation. When I think of the bed itself and the extremely close (I assume...) proximity of your head to the back wall - the filter calculations may not do an adequate job for the situation and all the effects that are being created in front of you by the bed and with the back wall to your ears. Simply put, the embedded assumptions in the physics may no longer fully apply. You likely have huge, close proximity reflections from the back wall to your ears and huge absorption of energy in front of you.

Again, the impact of your situation on the filters applicability is something I would ask DIRAC about as it's a very non-standard situation.

Mark

[ttocs]

Jul 27, 2020 14:28:21 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

Jul 27, 2020 12:52:34 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

I have bi-amp front wides selected for both speaker presets.
It works fine with any sound mode except Reference Stereo.

I have no option in trigger for activating front width or front width bi-amp.
As I said, it simply works on other sound modes.

This has stayed the same between firmware updates, factory resets and power downs.

Although, I have Enhanced bass activated with large fronts. Can this cause any issue?
It shouldn’t though..

Yes, it actually plays sound from bi-amp.. I cranked up the volume to -25db and switched
between bi-amp on and off.. I could clearly hear that it had ”some” bass.

But... I have very little bass, like the volume is 10db or more lower from the lower end.
If not lower in volume then cut off not playing the lower frequencies.
Tried with Stereo mode, wow.. A lot of bass..
Thought this might be because of my subs..
So went into speaker settings, turned off the subs, checked that the fronts were set to large.
Again, a lot of bass in Stereo mode.. Thin, very thin in Reference Stereo.
Confirmed that only the fronts are playing in both modes.

I was wondering.. I now have two different manufacturers for my amps.. Anthem and Emotiva.
Anthem MCA225 for the top end and Emotiva XPA gen 3 2x300W for the low end.
Can there be a problem with the gain or something?
But then again, why would Stereo mode have full bass volume?
Btw Direct mode also have full bass volume.

It’s almost like RMC remembers the Enhanced bass crossover frequency of 50hz and cuts it
below only in Reference Stereo for the bi-amp speaker.

The gain is the same for both amps so I can't see a problem there.

I just checked my system with the following results:
Bi Amp Fronts enabled, Enhanced Bass enabled
Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are active
Reference Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are not active

Bi Amp Fronts enabled, Enhanced Bass disabled
Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are not active
Reference Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are not active

This is correct for Enhanced Bass operation. 

Do you have any EQ applied for the Fronts? If so, this could account for a difference between Stereo (w/EQ) and Reference Stereo (no EQ).

[marcl]

Jul 27, 2020 14:47:17 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

Jul 26, 2020 20:39:10 GMT -5 Lonnie said:

So why don’t you just use the Left and Right sub outputs on the processor. Then Dirac will test, correct and align each one separately.

Lonnie

As much as I like giving each sub its own channel and hooking them L&R, I have also switched to a Y cable from the center output, and feel the way Dirac handles the pair as a single sub is giving me smoother response and more low end extension (though I haven’t remeasured). Once we get DLBC 😮 I would likely put them back. (note: my two subs are perfectly symmetrical around Center and the MLP)

Yes!    No matter what anyone says about having Dirac measure the subs separately, you have to do it this way or the sum of the two playing together will never be right.   Y works fine if your subs are close to the same distance from MLP.   Mine are 12ft and 10.1ft respectively so while the Y worked fine, the miniDSP with 1.7ms delay on the second sub works better.