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Post by PaulBe on Nov 5, 2023 14:33:02 GMT -5
Perhaps you could state βto the general readershipβ why your post responses would be different from post to post depending on who made the post. I suggest that responding to the words in a post is the best course. If there is something you donβt understand, ask for clarification. Your additional information may be valuable. Thanks for the two links. Trtpk is new for me. I was asking for a favorite source that discusses the technical differences and attributes of different ATMOS encoding techniques. Mark Waldrep is a fantastic guy and a treasure to the audio community. Heβs gone through a tough time in the last few years. I read his book and have a few of his recordings. Mark Waldrepβs survey is telling and valuable. I didnβt say anything about sample rates greater than 48Khz being phoolery; noting the context of your paragraph. I said βA Dirac user has little reason to accept any audio phoolery about Hi-rez recordings, where the resolution is > than 24bit/48K, or when the source format is different than PCM, when using Dirac.β. The operative words were βwhen using Diracβ, and Dirac has a 24bit/48Khz limit in most processors; including Storm Audio, as stated by ttocs above. Of course there are multi-channel recordings with higher resolution than 24/48 β none are ATMOS. I have several. Iβll bet you do too. Foggy1956 states above, βIn my system, to my ears, 48k thru Dirac sounds better than the same hi res file does in reference stereo. YMMVβ. How does your Mileage Vary with reproduction of recordings that have higher resolutions than 24/48, when reproduced with the application of Dirac? There May or May Not be βaudio phoolryβ in a discussion about Hi-rez recordings in general β lot of stuff in the details. There Is some audio phoolery in playing, or paying more for, a recording that is higher rez than 24/48, and then applying Dirac limited to 24/48, to the output of that hi-rez recording. I swear that my old vinyl is still fun enough to keep a turntable that is obscenely expensive compared to a HT processor. That is all. Yes I realized after I responded I intended to include this reference .... audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/sources-the-ultimate-guide-to-high-end-immersive-audio-r1226/Thanks marcl. I sense that you are having a busy day and being stretched in different directions.
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Post by marcl on Nov 5, 2023 14:41:12 GMT -5
Thanks marcl. I sense that you are having a busy day and being stretched in different directions. Stretching is painful ... I try to avoid it Actually no ... we took a walk - our 3 1/2 mile loop. Then I set about fixing the hangers for my LRS surround speakers, one of which fell off the wall this morning. No damage ... I just can't figure what processed me to use three strands of monofilament rather than steel wire when I hung it last February. And ... my XMC-2 is headed back to Franklin so I'm not engaged in my usual playing around. BTW ... I like this Audiophilestyle guy ... and I especially like his all Wilson Atmos system!
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Post by foggy1956 on Nov 5, 2023 14:42:38 GMT -5
Funny thing is, I wrote the broader technical response and posted before I realized that it was you asking the question. But still, the information is correct and maybe useful to the general readership. Since all Atmos is 48KHz Dirac sample rate is not an issue for Atmos, of course. To answer your last question, 2L sells Pure Audio bluray discs with Atmos; two download resources that I have used are: trptk.com/ and immersiveaudioalbum.com/I have listened to tracks in Atmos from Apple Music on Apple TV 4K, as well as Blueray and MKV versions of several tracks. To my ear the MKV always sounds the best, and any downloaded or Bluray always sounds better than Apple Music ... though Apple Music Atmos does sound really good! Sean Olive has done some quantitative testing and determined the same, generally streaming sources will be audibly compressed. As for whether sample rates greater than 48KHz are phoolery, I anxiously await the first ever A/B/X test (i.e. not holding my breath). Mark Waldrep's "survey" (AES 10417 Oct 2020) with well-controlled sources distributed to the general public to listen to on their own systems concluded that there was no evidence of an audible difference between 96KHz and Red Book. And then there are those you swear vinyl sounds better than both .... Perhaps you could state βto the general readershipβ why your post responses would be different from post to post depending on who made the post. I suggest that responding to the words in a post is the best course. If there is something you donβt understand, ask for clarification. Your additional information may be valuable. Thanks for the two links. Trtpk is new for me. I was asking for a favorite source that discusses the technical differences and attributes of different ATMOS encoding techniques. Mark Waldrep is a fantastic guy and a treasure to the audio community. Heβs gone through a tough time in the last few years. I read his book and have a few of his recordings. Mark Waldrepβs survey is telling and valuable. I didnβt say anything about sample rates greater than 48Khz being phoolery; noting the context of your paragraph. I said βA Dirac user has little reason to accept any audio phoolery about Hi-rez recordings, where the resolution is > than 24bit/48K, or when the source format is different than PCM, when using Dirac.β. The operative words were βwhen using Diracβ, and Dirac has a 24bit/48Khz limit in most processors; including Storm Audio, as stated by ttocs above. Of course there are multi-channel recordings with higher resolution than 24/48 β none are ATMOS. I have several. Iβll bet you do too. Foggy1956 states above, βIn my system, to my ears, 48k thru Dirac sounds better than the same hi res file does in reference stereo. YMMVβ. How does your Mileage Vary with reproduction of recordings that have higher resolutions than 24/48, when reproduced with the application of Dirac? There May or May Not be βaudio phoolryβ in a discussion about Hi-rez recordings in general β lot of stuff in the details. There Is some audio phoolery in playing, and paying more for, a recording that is higher rez than 24/48, and then applying Dirac limited to 24/48, to the output of that hi-rez recording. I swear that my old vinyl is still fun enough to keep a turntable that is obscenely expensive compared to a HT processor. That is all. My mileage doesn't change but yours in your room with your system may. Hence YOUR mileage may vary
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Post by ttocs on Nov 5, 2023 15:26:10 GMT -5
I setup the system for Fronts Large, and Left/Right Sub Mono. Connected the old OPPO via Balanced In (analog) on the XMC-2. The amp for the Fronts is OFF. Only the Subwoofer is ON. When I play a CD I can toggle Enhanced Bass on and off and get the subwoofer to play the Enhanced Bass. When I engage the Center channel setup as Large, I can still toggle the Enhanced Bass on and off and get the subwoofer to react as expected. edit: Forgot one thing. I'm using USER EQ. I'll try Dirac. But ... does it still work with the sub connected to Center Sub and LFE mode? Nope! I'm using the miniDSP Device Control to monitor the incoming signals, which makes tracking this stuff super easy. ENHANCED BASS YES OR NO? Fronts Large Left/Right Subs Mono or Dual Mono or None
and/or Center Sub LFE or Mono or None
The results are complex, so here's a spreadsheet:
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thx2023
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Scientia est Virtus
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Post by thx2023 on Nov 5, 2023 15:36:10 GMT -5
But ... does it still work with the sub connected to Center Sub and LFE mode? Nope! I'm using the miniDSP Device Control to monitor the incoming signals, which makes tracking this stuff super easy. ENHANCED BASS YES OR NO? Fronts Large Left/Right Subs Mono or Dual Mono or None
and/or Center Sub LFE or Mono or None
The results are complex, so here's a spreadsheet:
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Post by marcl on Nov 5, 2023 15:52:12 GMT -5
But ... does it still work with the sub connected to Center Sub and LFE mode? Nope! I'm using the miniDSP Device Control to monitor the incoming signals, which makes tracking this stuff super easy. ENHANCED BASS YES OR NO? Fronts Large Left/Right Subs Mono or Dual Mono or None
and/or Center Sub LFE or Mono or None
The results are complex, so here's a spreadsheet: I'm not totally clear how to read this ... it seems there is a difference in behavior between Dirac and User EQ, but also a relationship with whether L/R subs and Center sub are simultaneously connected or not. Does it seem to be upmixing to the center when it's large?
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Post by ttocs on Nov 5, 2023 16:11:06 GMT -5
Nope! I'm using the miniDSP Device Control to monitor the incoming signals, which makes tracking this stuff super easy. ENHANCED BASS YES OR NO? Fronts Large Left/Right Subs Mono or Dual Mono or None
and/or Center Sub LFE or Mono or None
The results are complex, so here's a spreadsheet: I'm not totally clear how to read this ... it seems there is a difference in behavior between Dirac and User EQ, but also a relationship with whether L/R subs and Center sub are simultaneously connected or not. Does it seem to be upmixing to the center when it's large? I only tested subwoofer channels, and Center was not configured for this as it didn't seem to make a difference in any of this because Enhanced Bass goes to the Subwoofers. What does make a difference is USER vs Dirac EQ. All the Green YES cells produce Enhanced Bass. When USER EQ is selected, and, Center Sub is MONO and Left/Right Subs are MONO or DUAL MONO, all sub channels produce Enhanced Bass, as per Lines 4 and 5 of the spreadsheet. LFE will NOT produce any Enhanced Bass. But, Center Sub will produce Enhanced Bass when a Dirac EQ is selected and Center Sub is MONO. And, it does NOT matter if the various sub channels that are noted as NOT producing any Enhanced Bass are enabled or not, it won't affect when Enhanced Bass will be produced by the subs that CAN pass it through. The ones that can't make Enhanced Bass just sit there silently waiting for something to do.
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Post by marcl on Nov 5, 2023 16:41:10 GMT -5
I'm not totally clear how to read this ... it seems there is a difference in behavior between Dirac and User EQ, but also a relationship with whether L/R subs and Center sub are simultaneously connected or not. Does it seem to be upmixing to the center when it's large? I only tested subwoofer channels, and Center was not configured for this as it didn't seem to make a difference in any of this because Enhanced Bass goes to the Subwoofers. What does make a difference is USER vs Dirac EQ. All the Green YES cells produce Enhanced Bass. When USER EQ is selected, and, Center Sub is MONO and Left/Right Subs are MONO or DUAL MONO, all sub channels produce Enhanced Bass, as per Lines 4 and 5 of the spreadsheet. LFE will NOT produce any Enhanced Bass. But, Center Sub will produce Enhanced Bass when a Dirac EQ is selected and Center Sub is MONO. And, it does NOT matter if the various sub channels that are noted as NOT producing any Enhanced Bass are enabled or not, it won't affect when Enhanced Bass will be produced by the subs that CAN pass it through. The ones that can't make Enhanced Bass just sit there silently waiting for something to do. Okay I think that points to my hypothesis that if you have Center sub LFE you don't get enhanced bass because the processor isn't sending bass management to subs so it's like with LFE configured it would just be sending the Enhanced Bass to the fronts. But working differently with Dirac vs User ... this points to the bass routing bug I found 3 1/2 years ago!
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Post by ttocs on Nov 5, 2023 16:55:08 GMT -5
But working differently with Dirac vs User ... this points to the bass routing bug I found 3 1/2 years ago! Yeah, the LFE thing seems logical because the sub channel is designated as such which excludes the ability to ALSO have BM routed to it. But the USER vs Dirac difference shouldn't be happening. There is one possible caveat with this, so I need to check something. edit: Nope, I was worried about nothing. The only Subwoofer Channel that produces Enhanced Bass with a Dirac filter is when Center Sub is Mono. I may test digital sources as well. I'll report this to Emo. edit2: I just tried all the different sound fields and none of them changes anything with regards to passing Enhanced Bass from Balanced In analog source.
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Post by marcl on Nov 5, 2023 17:28:39 GMT -5
But working differently with Dirac vs User ... this points to the bass routing bug I found 3 1/2 years ago! Yeah, the LFE thing seems logical because the sub channel is designated as such which excludes the ability to ALSO have BM routed to it. But the USER vs Dirac difference shouldn't be happening. There is one possible caveat with this, so I need to check something. edit: Nope, I was worried about nothing. The only Subwoofer Channel that produces Enhanced Bass with a Dirac filter is when Center Sub is Mono. I may test digital sources as well. I'll report this to Emo. edit2: I just tried all the different sound fields and none of them changes anything with regards to passing Enhanced Bass from Balanced In analog source. Right so this is the routing issue that is so deep that it requires the rewrite ... that's right ... Gonna throw away the bad code And toss it in the trash Every minute after midnight All the time I'm spending Is just for workin' on my rewrite, that's right Gonna turn it into cash (Paul Simon)
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 5, 2023 19:53:11 GMT -5
Perhaps you could state βto the general readershipβ why your post responses would be different from post to post depending on who made the post. I suggest that responding to the words in a post is the best course. If there is something you donβt understand, ask for clarification. Your additional information may be valuable. Thanks for the two links. Trtpk is new for me. I was asking for a favorite source that discusses the technical differences and attributes of different ATMOS encoding techniques. Mark Waldrep is a fantastic guy and a treasure to the audio community. Heβs gone through a tough time in the last few years. I read his book and have a few of his recordings. Mark Waldrepβs survey is telling and valuable. I didnβt say anything about sample rates greater than 48Khz being phoolery; noting the context of your paragraph. I said βA Dirac user has little reason to accept any audio phoolery about Hi-rez recordings, where the resolution is > than 24bit/48K, or when the source format is different than PCM, when using Dirac.β. The operative words were βwhen using Diracβ, and Dirac has a 24bit/48Khz limit in most processors; including Storm Audio, as stated by ttocs above. Of course there are multi-channel recordings with higher resolution than 24/48 β none are ATMOS. I have several. Iβll bet you do too. Foggy1956 states above, βIn my system, to my ears, 48k thru Dirac sounds better than the same hi res file does in reference stereo. YMMVβ. How does your Mileage Vary with reproduction of recordings that have higher resolutions than 24/48, when reproduced with the application of Dirac? There May or May Not be βaudio phoolryβ in a discussion about Hi-rez recordings in general β lot of stuff in the details. There Is some audio phoolery in playing, and paying more for, a recording that is higher rez than 24/48, and then applying Dirac limited to 24/48, to the output of that hi-rez recording. I swear that my old vinyl is still fun enough to keep a turntable that is obscenely expensive compared to a HT processor. That is all. My mileage doesn't change but yours in your room with your system may. Hence YOUR mileage may vary Hi foggy. My question is to marcl.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 6, 2023 8:31:56 GMT -5
Just a quick note...was able to use Dirac 3.7.2 yesterday and did a calibration using the ttocs method (love it). Only issue was a hiccup or two with the sub. Used the "spread out, multiple listeners" calibration. In a couple of spots my sub would trigger an error where the mic was overwhelmed by volume. I "fixed" that by returning to the sub volume and backing it down by a Db or so. Happenned about three times depending on the mic location.
Afterwards, the sound to my ears is better than my previous filter, however I'm worried about the sub output and whether I mucked that up. I was going to readjust the sub output and rerun everything again, but my wife came home and the house was no longer mine alone.
Any additional tips on single sub output adjustment starting from the controls on the sub? I had it turned up past the "50%" line and that may have been the issue. I should be able to re-run everything again on Friday as I'm off.
Hope the above makes sense.
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thx2023
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Post by thx2023 on Nov 6, 2023 12:26:14 GMT -5
Yeah, the LFE thing seems logical because the sub channel is designated as such which excludes the ability to ALSO have BM routed to it. But the USER vs Dirac difference shouldn't be happening. There is one possible caveat with this, so I need to check something. edit: Nope, I was worried about nothing. The only Subwoofer Channel that produces Enhanced Bass with a Dirac filter is when Center Sub is Mono. I may test digital sources as well. I'll report this to Emo. edit2: I just tried all the different sound fields and none of them changes anything with regards to passing Enhanced Bass from Balanced In analog source. Right so this is the routing issue that is so deep that it requires the rewrite ... that's right ... Gonna throw away the bad code And toss it in the trash Every minute after midnight All the time I'm spending Is just for workin' on my rewrite, that's right Gonna turn it into cash (Paul Simon)
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thx2023
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Post by thx2023 on Nov 6, 2023 12:35:19 GMT -5
But working differently with Dirac vs User ... this points to the bass routing bug I found 3 1/2 years ago! Yeah, the LFE thing seems logical because the sub channel is designated as such which excludes the ability to ALSO have BM routed to it. But the USER vs Dirac difference shouldn't be happening. There is one possible caveat with this, so I need to check something. edit: Nope, I was worried about nothing. The only Subwoofer Channel that produces Enhanced Bass with a Dirac filter is when Center Sub is Mono. I may test digital sources as well. I'll report this to Emo. edit2: I just tried all the different sound fields and none of them changes anything with regards to passing Enhanced Bass from Balanced In analog source.
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thx2023
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Post by thx2023 on Nov 6, 2023 12:42:28 GMT -5
Thanks ttoc and Marci for your great diagnostic help.. switched the dang thang (sub setting) to mono vice LFE, put on Dark Side of the Moon, and wow, Mr. SB-3000 showed up as expected.... (Finally!!!!)
Thanks All!
Terry
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thx2023
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Post by thx2023 on Nov 6, 2023 14:46:27 GMT -5
Thanks ttoc and Marci for your great diagnostic help.. switched the dang thang (sub setting) to mono vice LFE, put on Dark Side of the Moon, and wow, Mr. SB-3000 showed up as expected.... (Finally!!!!) Thanks All! Terry
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thx2023
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Post by thx2023 on Nov 6, 2023 16:07:59 GMT -5
Thanks ttoc and Marci for your great diagnostic help.. switched the dang thang (sub setting) to mono vice LFE, put on Dark Side of the Moon, and wow, Mr. SB-3000 showed up as expected.... (Finally!!!!) Thanks All! Terry
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thx2023
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Post by thx2023 on Nov 6, 2023 16:12:23 GMT -5
This was in DIRAC mode on stereo and surround... working Analog 1 mode with my VPI Scout TT-- now pariing well with my 1723 Monitors at the low end... (at long last...)
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Post by webmst007 on Nov 14, 2023 8:34:51 GMT -5
For those like marcl with multiple subs and a need to cross over mains to subs there maybe a new solution - minidsp has just announced a Flex HTx with 8 in 8 out plus eARC over HDMI input for 8 channel PCM plus a few other bits and pieces in it. I have 4 subs in the corners using a Venue360 so I I would possibly see it replace the 360 to cross over and manage the mono/LFE from to 4 subs plus cross my mains to the 2 front subs for stereo. Could even try a double Dirac sandwich πππ€ͺπ€ͺ. Later when G4P goes ART and multisub management, it would allow me to remove the passive cross overs in my 3 way front electrostatic panels and tri amp them with active cross overs and suitable filters ( which I wanted to try for ages). Only slight issue is it's US$1K. π€π€£π€£
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 14, 2023 9:43:50 GMT -5
For those like marcl with multiple subs and a need to cross over mains to subs there maybe a new solution - minidsp has just announced a Flex HTx with 8 in 8 out plus eARC over HDMI input for 8 channel PCM plus a few other bits and pieces in it. I have 4 subs in the corners using a Venue360 so I I would possibly see it replace the 360 to cross over and manage the mono/LFE from to 4 subs plus cross my mains to the 2 front subs for stereo. Could even try a double Dirac sandwich πππ€ͺπ€ͺ. Later when G4P goes ART and multisub management, it would allow me to remove the passive cross overs in my 3 way front electrostatic panels and tri amp them with active cross overs and suitable filters ( which I wanted to try for ages). Only slight issue is it's US$1K. π€π€£π€£ Viewing the Flex HTx as a HT audio processor, I don't understand this device. A properly functioning HT AV processor would serve better, be less cumbersome, without need for external processing. 8 IN (7.1), will not offer multi Sub capability on the outputs. The pic at minidsp shows it used with one Sub. I see the ability to do 4x8 for bi-amp channels, or 3x6 for 3 bi-amp channels and 2 independent Subs, or 2x3 for 2 tri-amp channels with 2 independent Subs. I assume the Flex HTx has flexible enough routing and mixing to implement complex Sub routing. It is going to require more than One HTx for HT multi-channel with complex multi-Sub routing and mixing. Bi-amping and tri-amping with this scenario gets a little crazy.
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