Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 24, 2023 19:05:00 GMT -5
When watching the video it is interesting how many times it was said that how difficult it is to get multiple subs to work together and it is more common to have cancellations than summing. I have 2 SVS SB4000 subs and have tired using a "Y" cable and Dual Mono configurations. The Y seems to be more boomy, the dual mono seems smoother but definitely less bass. I wonder if I might have better luck in trying one sub for BM and the other for LFE? I might try setting up the system this way, rerun Dirac and see. Any thoughts or suggestions? Try setting phase and PEQ to all zero and running Dirac. This will get you a good baseline. Next download JL Audio TüN. You will need this to blend your subs properly using, crossover frequency (try starting at 70Hz), phase and PEQ. First get a baseline of what the curve is without subs, then add the subs and start adjusting the phase of each sub…until you get to a good curve…then use PEQ to adjust the curve - fine tune etc. This is a royal pain in the a$$ fyi but when you get the subs phase aligned properly and flatten the curve…it’s shocking how good every sounds. It’s a taste of what DLBC can give us without all the manual labor 🤕😬. JL audio has some YouTube videos on how to use TUN - it’s not bad to use. I barely know how to use but know enough to get to a point where I can compare different real time curves and adjust my crossover, phase and elf to get a decent blend. I’m sure there are many many ways ti skin a cat. This was what I did last week and it’s made a world of difference in my system. |
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Post by lhracing on Dec 25, 2023 0:32:30 GMT -5
When watching the video it is interesting how many times it was said that how difficult it is to get multiple subs to work together and it is more common to have cancellations than summing. I have 2 SVS SB4000 subs and have tired using a "Y" cable and Dual Mono configurations. The Y seems to be more boomy, the dual mono seems smoother but definitely less bass. I wonder if I might have better luck in trying one sub for BM and the other for LFE? I might try setting up the system this way, rerun Dirac and see. Any thoughts or suggestions? Try using the XMC-2 remote to bump up the bass level to the point where it sounds reasonably close to what you want. You can then redesign the Dirac curve, continue to use the remote, or bump the subwoofer levels up to match what you liked using the temporary remote sub level. If you choose a flat Dirac curve using the remote is very effective. Where are your subwoofers placed in the room? The subs are inboard from the fronts.  |
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Post by lhracing on Dec 25, 2023 11:08:43 GMT -5
When watching the video it is interesting how many times it was said that how difficult it is to get multiple subs to work together and it is more common to have cancellations than summing. I have 2 SVS SB4000 subs and have tired using a "Y" cable and Dual Mono configurations. The Y seems to be more boomy, the dual mono seems smoother but definitely less bass. I wonder if I might have better luck in trying one sub for BM and the other for LFE? I might try setting up the system this way, rerun Dirac and see. Any thoughts or suggestions? Try setting phase and PEQ to all zero and running Dirac. This will get you a good baseline. Next download JL Audio TüN. You will need this to blend your subs properly using, crossover frequency (try starting at 70Hz), phase and PEQ. First get a baseline of what the curve is without subs, then add the subs and start adjusting the phase of each sub…until you get to a good curve…then use PEQ to adjust the curve - fine tune etc. This is a royal pain in the a$$ fyi but when you get the subs phase aligned properly and flatten the curve…it’s shocking how good every sounds. It’s a taste of what DLBC can give us without all the manual labor 🤕😬. JL audio has some YouTube videos on how to use TUN - it’s not bad to use. I barely know how to use but know enough to get to a point where I can compare different real time curves and adjust my crossover, phase and elf to get a decent blend. I’m sure there are many many ways ti skin a cat. This was what I did last week and it’s made a world of difference in my system. I downloaded the JL Audio Tun and have been looking at it and have watched a few YouTube videos. I have a question, is there an advantage in using Tun vs REW? |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 25, 2023 15:44:27 GMT -5
I downloaded the JL Audio Tun and have been looking at it and have watched a few YouTube videos. I have a question, is there an advantage in using Tun vs REW? For me it was an advantage because I’m a total bot with REW. Does REW do live RTA? That’s what really helped me…I was able to make adjustments which and seeing the effects live which was so helpful. I realized that some adjustments can jack up the bass by like 15 dBs but is actually not desirable. If you can do all this with REW, it’s the same thing. Blending the two subs required me to have the phase on one sub at 90 degrees and the other one 45 degrees (maybe placement issues)…but it’s cool how adjustments from one sub can change the curve so much. Lots of experimenting needed. |
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Post by lhracing on Dec 25, 2023 16:49:51 GMT -5
I downloaded the JL Audio Tun and have been looking at it and have watched a few YouTube videos. I have a question, is there an advantage in using Tun vs REW? For me it was an advantage because I’m a total bot with REW. Does REW do live RTA? That’s what really helped me…I was able to make adjustments which and seeing the effects live which was so helpful. I realized that some adjustments can jack up the bass by like 15 dBs but is actually not desirable. If you can do all this with REW, it’s the same thing. Blending the two subs required me to have the phase on one sub at 90 degrees and the other one 45 degrees (maybe placement issues)…but it’s cool how adjustments from one sub can change the curve so much. Lots of experimenting needed. So you applied the phase adjustments after running Dirac? |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 25, 2023 18:04:46 GMT -5
For me it was an advantage because I’m a total bot with REW. Does REW do live RTA? That’s what really helped me…I was able to make adjustments which and seeing the effects live which was so helpful. I realized that some adjustments can jack up the bass by like 15 dBs but is actually not desirable. If you can do all this with REW, it’s the same thing. Blending the two subs required me to have the phase on one sub at 90 degrees and the other one 45 degrees (maybe placement issues)…but it’s cool how adjustments from one sub can change the curve so much. Lots of experimenting needed. So you applied the phase adjustments after running Dirac? Yes. The phase adjustment is needed to account for a good blend between subs. This is what DLBC would normally take care of for us but since we don’t have DLBC, each speaker is treated as an individual speaker. So there could be lots of destructive effects. I initially had to change the phase of 1 sub 180 degrees to reduce the cancellations. Using TüN, I got this part fixed. This was the biggest problem that I had. I’m sure once you figure this out, you’ll be shocked at how good your subs are. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 26, 2023 17:08:19 GMT -5
Just to be pedantic... an RTA is always "live"... RTA ... Real Time Analyzer ...  And, yes, along with ALL the other cool stuff it does, REW offers an excellent, and highly configurable, RTA. (Just be sure to load the appropriate microphone calibration file for your microphone into it... including ours.) I downloaded the JL Audio Tun and have been looking at it and have watched a few YouTube videos. I have a question, is there an advantage in using Tun vs REW? For me it was an advantage because I’m a total bot with REW. Does REW do live RTA? That’s what really helped me…I was able to make adjustments which and seeing the effects live which was so helpful. I realized that some adjustments can jack up the bass by like 15 dBs but is actually not desirable. If you can do all this with REW, it’s the same thing. Blending the two subs required me to have the phase on one sub at 90 degrees and the other one 45 degrees (maybe placement issues)…but it’s cool how adjustments from one sub can change the curve so much. Lots of experimenting needed. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 26, 2023 17:24:50 GMT -5
There is something I feel a need to point out here. Dirac Live (without DLBC) does in fact calibrate each speaker separately. However, because it does correct phase in each individual sub, you should expect subs to usually add correctly. What DLBC may do better would be to account for specific and unusual interactions between subs... especially multiple subs... and the room. HOWEVER, if I had multiple subs, and the ability to adjust the phase on all or most of them independently, I would follow a different order. (Particularly if I was willing to use something like REW to take measurements and test the results of various corrections.) What I would do would be to connect all of my subs to a single "sub output" on the processor using a splitter. I would then use REW to adjust all of the subs relative to each other and the listening position. (Or, instead of a splitter and the controls on the subs, use something like a miniDSP.) In other words I would make all the adjustments on the subs, including phase and level for each, so that THEY all work well together. (Either as measured at the prime listening position, or on average over a larger area, or whatever my goal was there.) At that point I would have the equivalent of "one big, properly calibrated, composite subwoofer". THEN I would run Dirac Live, allowing it to calibrate my "composite sub" relative to my other speakers. Note that something like a miniDSP offers you a LOT of flexibility and configuration options... Including extensive filter options, time correction options, and other EQ options. And it can be used by itself... or in conjunction with any other calibration software... (And the price is competitive with the price of the DLBC software add-on alone.) So you applied the phase adjustments after running Dirac? Yes. The phase adjustment is needed to account for a good blend between subs. This is what DLBC would normally take care of for us but since we don’t have DLBC, each speaker is treated as an individual speaker. So there could be lots of destructive effects. I initially had to change the phase of 1 sub 180 degrees to reduce the cancellations. Using TüN, I got this part fixed. This was the biggest problem that I had. I’m sure once you figure this out, you’ll be shocked at how good your subs are. |
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Post by marcl on Dec 26, 2023 17:37:31 GMT -5
There is something I feel a need to point out here. Dirac Live (without DLBC) does in fact calibrate each speaker separately. However, because it does correct phase in each individual sub, you should expect subs to usually add correctly. What DLBC may do better would be to account for specific and unusual interactions between subs... especially multiple subs... and the room. HOWEVER, if I had multiple subs, and the ability to adjust the phase on all or most of them independently, I would follow a different order. (Particularly if I was willing to use something like REW to take measurements and test the results of various corrections.) What I would do would be to connect all of my subs to a single "sub output" on the processor using a splitter. I would then use REW to adjust all of the subs relative to each other and the listening position. (Or, instead of a splitter and the controls on the subs, use something like a miniDSP.) In other words I would make all the adjustments on the subs, including phase and level for each, so that THEY all work well together. (Either as measured at the prime listening position, or on average over a larger area, or whatever my goal was there.) At that point I would have the equivalent of "one big, properly calibrated, composite subwoofer". THEN I would run Dirac Live, allowing it to calibrate my "composite sub" relative to my other speakers. Note that something like a miniDSP offers you a LOT of flexibility and configuration options... Including extensive filter options, time correction options, and other EQ options. And it can be used by itself... or in conjunction with any other calibration software... (And the price is competitive with the price of the DLBC software add-on alone.) Yes. The phase adjustment is needed to account for a good blend between subs. This is what DLBC would normally take care of for us but since we don’t have DLBC, each speaker is treated as an individual speaker. So there could be lots of destructive effects. I initially had to change the phase of 1 sub 180 degrees to reduce the cancellations. Using TüN, I got this part fixed. This was the biggest problem that I had. I’m sure once you figure this out, you’ll be shocked at how good your subs are. This works great, and it's what I and many others do with a miniDSP. The thing is ... I heard Mathias Johannsen talk about some other aspects of DLBC and Dirac Bass Management in the video that I linked to. He talks about using strictly All-Pass filters to ensure phase alignment ... not just between subs, but (I believe) also between pairs of speakers that would have similar bass content and should be in alignment with the subs. He talked about this phase alignment working to eliminate dips at crossover points which we sometimes see. There just seemed to be more information in that video that I had not heard before regarding DLBC and DLBM. In fact he mentioned getting DLBM "for free" with DLBC. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 26, 2023 21:36:47 GMT -5
Just to be pedantic... an RTA is always "live"... RTA ... Real Time Analyzer ... And, yes, along with ALL the other cool stuff it does, REW offers an excellent, and highly configurable, RTA. (Just be sure to load the appropriate microphone calibration file for your microphone into it... including ours.) For me it was an advantage because I’m a total bot with REW. Does REW do live RTA? That’s what really helped me…I was able to make adjustments which and seeing the effects live which was so helpful. I realized that some adjustments can jack up the bass by like 15 dBs but is actually not desirable. If you can do all this with REW, it’s the same thing. Blending the two subs required me to have the phase on one sub at 90 degrees and the other one 45 degrees (maybe placement issues)…but it’s cool how adjustments from one sub can change the curve so much. Lots of experimenting needed. To be clear, can REW run RTA like when we go to set channel levels where it stays running OR does it run sweeps? Maybe I’m not being clear on this…either way this JL audio TüN can show changes in phase “live” like level chmges which make making adjustments much faster. |
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Post by lhracing on Dec 27, 2023 10:13:22 GMT -5
Over the last couple of days, I have tried adjusting the phase on the subs and came up with an offset of 22 degrees that seems to be about as good as I can get them to interact together. Through multiple tests with REW on the subs and front speakers it has become obvious that I am fighting my room. No matter if I run only the subs out to 200hz or my fronts as Large I have a null at about 73hz, with phasing changes on the subs I can get it to narrow up some but not go away. My current configuration is back to the "Y" cable setup. I adjusted the phases, ran REW EQ and adjusted the SVS subs internal PEQ based on the REW recommendations. I plan on running DIRAC again today and give that a try. My system is at the end of an open floor plan family/kitchen room and does not lend itself to many configuration changes. Thanks for everyone's help.   |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 27, 2023 10:55:52 GMT -5
You can run REW just like a normal RTA... with a "live graph" on-screen that updates instantly.
It offers lots of options, including different types of graphs, and a wide variety of options for things like averaging and number of bands.
REW actually offers a lot more flexibility than most of the commercial RTA devices I've seen (as long as you already have a microphone).
Note that, when you use an RTA "manually", you usually play your test tone, and then adjust your EQ while watching the graph on the RTA.
It's the equivalent of using "a signal generator" and "a meter".NOTE that, when you use an RTA, you are usually working with a steady-state test tone, and an averaged meter reading. So, for example, you would use a pink noise track as your test tone... And adjust the graph for the characteristic "flat line sloping gently down towards the higher end of the spectrum"... (White noise should yield a flat horizontal graph; pink noise should slope downwards toward the high frequencies by 3 dB per octave.) Because this is an averaged response you should expect a different result than when you use a "sweep" or "chirp" or "time windowed" measurement. (Each of which is intentionally measuring something quite different from "a long term averaged in-room response"...) I guess it's worth mentioning that an RTA generally displays a frequency response graph... You would use a different sort of test signal and graph for testing phase... In order to "time align" speakers or drivers you would normally play a short pulse out of all of the speakers you're interested in... You would then make your adjustments so that the pulses all appear to overlap on the screen (you see one pulse rather than multiple pulses at different times). Also note that you CANNOT simply play a sine wave out of multiple speakers to view their relative phases. If you have direct electrical connections, on separate channels, you can compare the phase of sine waves of the same frequency by measuring the delay between them. However, with a single microphone, if you add together multiple sine waves of the same frequency, the result will be a single sine wave at that frequency. You WILL NOT be able to see the phase, or relative phases, of the individual waves once they are added together... All you can know is that your result will have its MAXIMUM OUTPUT LEVEL when they are ALL exactly in phase. (And this result will only be "true" at the exact frequency, and the exact spot in 3D space, where you are taking your measurements.) (This is why you "phase align two subs" by playing a test tone and adjusting them for maximum output... as measured at your listening position.) This is why we use pulses, or bursts of sine waves, rather than continuous sine waves, to make actual acoustic measurements of phase. Just to be pedantic... an RTA is always "live"... RTA ... Real Time Analyzer ... And, yes, along with ALL the other cool stuff it does, REW offers an excellent, and highly configurable, RTA. (Just be sure to load the appropriate microphone calibration file for your microphone into it... including ours.) To be clear, can REW run RTA like when we go to set channel levels where it stays running OR does it run sweeps? Maybe I’m not being clear on this…either way this JL audio TüN can show changes in phase “live” like level chmges which make making adjustments much faster.
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 27, 2023 11:27:06 GMT -5
You can run REW just like a normal RTA... with a "live graph" on-screen that updates instantly.
It offers lots of options, including different types of graphs, and a wide variety of options for things like averaging and number of bands.
REW actually offers a lot more flexibility than most of the commercial RTA devices I've seen (as long as you already have a microphone).
Note that, when you use an RTA "manually", you usually play your test tone, and then adjust your EQ while watching the graph on the RTA.
It's the equivalent of using "a signal generator" and "a meter".NOTE that, when you use an RTA, you are usually working with a steady-state test tone, and an averaged meter reading. So, for example, you would use a pink noise track as your test tone... And adjust the graph for the characteristic "flat line sloping gently down towards the higher end of the spectrum"... (White noise should yield a flat horizontal graph; pink noise should slope downwards toward the high frequencies by 3 dB per octave.) Because this is an averaged response you should expect a different result than when you use a "sweep" or "chirp" or "time windowed" measurement. (Each of which is intentionally measuring something quite different from "a long term averaged in-room response"...) I guess it's worth mentioning that an RTA generally displays a frequency response graph... You would use a different sort of test signal and graph for testing phase... In order to "time align" speakers or drivers you would normally play a short pulse out of all of the speakers you're interested in... You would then make your adjustments so that the pulses all appear to overlap on the screen (you see one pulse rather than multiple pulses at different times). Also note that you CANNOT simply play a sine wave out of multiple speakers to view their relative phases. If you have direct electrical connections, on separate channels, you can compare the phase of sine waves of the same frequency by measuring the delay between them. However, with a single microphone, if you add together multiple sine waves of the same frequency, the result will be a single sine wave at that frequency. You WILL NOT be able to see the phase, or relative phases, of the individual waves once they are added together... All you can know is that your result will have its MAXIMUM OUTPUT LEVEL when they are ALL exactly in phase. (And this result will only be "true" at the exact frequency, and the exact spot in 3D space, where you are taking your measurements.) (This is why you "phase align two subs" by playing a test tone and adjusting them for maximum output... as measured at your listening position.) This is why we use pulses, or bursts of sine waves, rather than continuous sine waves, to make actual acoustic measurements of phase. To be clear, can REW run RTA like when we go to set channel levels where it stays running OR does it run sweeps? Maybe I’m not being clear on this…either way this JL audio TüN can show changes in phase “live” like level chmges which make making adjustments much faster. Wouldn't DLBC make all of this much easier? |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 27, 2023 11:43:41 GMT -5
@kiethl what I needed was simplicity vs flexibility and unfortunately I don’t have a good history with REW - user issues.  And yes, I believe what I did was what you said somewhere in your post, running the channels individually to understand what each speaker and speaker + sub curves look like - then generating a curve with my mains only. This gave me a good idea what the room effects were and what peaks I can knock down between 20-80Hz, then running both speakers and subs…adjusting the phase to see the graph collapse, then jump off the screen - then just by trial and error getting both subs at whatever phase I landed on for the best blend (left sub 90 degrees and right sub 20 degrees or so). Also the elf trim was helpful as it lowered the low bass frequencies that helped tame the bloat. This method is not as scientific vs what you seem to say but it got me the result I was looking for. Now my bass is both very fast and powerful…every song sounds so much better and I don’t feel like I need a 2 channel preamp anymore (at least for a while). The XMC2 is able to provide a very good 2 channel sound WITH my 2 Gothams - all without DLBC. If you can think of the best bass you’ve ever heard…this is up there with that so very very happy. It’s more than good enough for now and I can relax and enjoy my stuff now vs constantly tinkering. Also, I ran Dirac first to have the subs eq’d individually then started messing with the phases. I don’t know what using a Y adapter buys me except less granular Dirac measurements over the subs but I think either will generally lead to the same result. Since I can’t run Dirac again and I’m pretty much done with my calibration, I’ll stick with what I have. But it’s good to know there are alternative options. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 27, 2023 12:29:07 GMT -5
Wouldn't DLBC make all of this much easier? I don’t think there would be many G3P owners who wouldn’t pay the $350/500 for DLBC. Exactly, instead of spending 1/2 the day manually adjusting…just let the system do it - and do it better. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 27, 2023 13:02:26 GMT -5
The short answer to your very specific question is... Yes... Dirac Live will probably make the process a lot easier... And, yes, in a typical room, Dirac Live will almost certainly deliver a far better result than an inexperienced user would be able to achieve with REW. And, in a typical room, with a typical system, Dirac Live may even be able to match or beat the result an experienced expert might achieve with REW. However, because REW offers far more measurement options, and is not limited to using a specific limited amount of input data, the same will probably NOT be true in a NON-TYPICAL situation. As with virtually all "expert systems" Dirac Live is programmed to work well, using relatively few measurements, and making a lot of assumptions about "typical rooms" and "typical situations". But an expert human will be much better able to cope with unusual situations... partly by collecting more data... and REW will offer more tools for doing so. And, to be quite blunt, it also might be interesting to find out how much better result DLBC could achieve than plain Dirac Live, in MOST rooms, for MOST systems. I honestly have not experimented with DLBC... But I can say, from personal experience, that neither The Holy Grail, nor Silver Bullets exist... So I am pretty sure that, while it may work well for some people, and even well enough to justify its price tag, it will NOT be either of those things. Dirac Live is quite probably the best room correction currently available... Which makes it a little bit better than EmoQ or Audyssey... And DLBC is probably a little bit better yet... especially if you have multiple subwoofers and a difficult room... But, no, it is neither The Holy Grail nor a Silver Bullet. You can run REW just like a normal RTA... with a "live graph" on-screen that updates instantly.
It offers lots of options, including different types of graphs, and a wide variety of options for things like averaging and number of bands.
REW actually offers a lot more flexibility than most of the commercial RTA devices I've seen (as long as you already have a microphone).
Note that, when you use an RTA "manually", you usually play your test tone, and then adjust your EQ while watching the graph on the RTA.
It's the equivalent of using "a signal generator" and "a meter".NOTE that, when you use an RTA, you are usually working with a steady-state test tone, and an averaged meter reading. So, for example, you would use a pink noise track as your test tone... And adjust the graph for the characteristic "flat line sloping gently down towards the higher end of the spectrum"... (White noise should yield a flat horizontal graph; pink noise should slope downwards toward the high frequencies by 3 dB per octave.) Because this is an averaged response you should expect a different result than when you use a "sweep" or "chirp" or "time windowed" measurement. (Each of which is intentionally measuring something quite different from "a long term averaged in-room response"...) I guess it's worth mentioning that an RTA generally displays a frequency response graph... You would use a different sort of test signal and graph for testing phase... In order to "time align" speakers or drivers you would normally play a short pulse out of all of the speakers you're interested in... You would then make your adjustments so that the pulses all appear to overlap on the screen (you see one pulse rather than multiple pulses at different times). Also note that you CANNOT simply play a sine wave out of multiple speakers to view their relative phases. If you have direct electrical connections, on separate channels, you can compare the phase of sine waves of the same frequency by measuring the delay between them. However, with a single microphone, if you add together multiple sine waves of the same frequency, the result will be a single sine wave at that frequency. You WILL NOT be able to see the phase, or relative phases, of the individual waves once they are added together... All you can know is that your result will have its MAXIMUM OUTPUT LEVEL when they are ALL exactly in phase. (And this result will only be "true" at the exact frequency, and the exact spot in 3D space, where you are taking your measurements.) (This is why you "phase align two subs" by playing a test tone and adjusting them for maximum output... as measured at your listening position.) This is why we use pulses, or bursts of sine waves, rather than continuous sine waves, to make actual acoustic measurements of phase. Wouldn't DLBC make all of this much easier? |
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Post by marcl on Dec 27, 2023 14:49:18 GMT -5
The short answer to your very specific question is... Yes... Dirac Live will probably make the process a lot easier... And, yes, in a typical room, Dirac Live will almost certainly deliver a far better result than an inexperienced user would be able to achieve with REW. And, in a typical room, with a typical system, Dirac Live may even be able to match or beat the result an experienced expert might achieve with REW. However, because REW offers far more measurement options, and is not limited to using a specific limited amount of input data, the same will probably NOT be true in a NON-TYPICAL situation. As with virtually all "expert systems" Dirac Live is programmed to work well, using relatively few measurements, and making a lot of assumptions about "typical rooms" and "typical situations". But an expert human will be much better able to cope with unusual situations... partly by collecting more data... and REW will offer more tools for doing so. And, to be quite blunt, it also might be interesting to find out how much better result DLBC could achieve than plain Dirac Live, in MOST rooms, for MOST systems. I honestly have not experimented with DLBC... But I can say, from personal experience, that neither The Holy Grail, nor Silver Bullets exist... So I am pretty sure that, while it may work well for some people, and even well enough to justify its price tag, it will NOT be either of those things. Dirac Live is quite probably the best room correction currently available... Which makes it a little bit better than EmoQ or Audyssey... And DLBC is probably a little bit better yet... especially if you have multiple subwoofers and a difficult room... But, no, it is neither The Holy Grail nor a Silver Bullet. Wouldn't DLBC make all of this much easier? And as I always hasten to point out ... Dirac Live does Impulse Response and Phase corrections. Even an "experienced expert" can't do that with EmoQ, or Audyssey, or REW, or standard PEQ filters. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 27, 2023 16:00:33 GMT -5
The short answer to your very specific question is... Yes... Dirac Live will probably make the process a lot easier... And, yes, in a typical room, Dirac Live will almost certainly deliver a far better result than an inexperienced user would be able to achieve with REW. And, in a typical room, with a typical system, Dirac Live may even be able to match or beat the result an experienced expert might achieve with REW. However, because REW offers far more measurement options, and is not limited to using a specific limited amount of input data, the same will probably NOT be true in a NON-TYPICAL situation. As with virtually all "expert systems" Dirac Live is programmed to work well, using relatively few measurements, and making a lot of assumptions about "typical rooms" and "typical situations". But an expert human will be much better able to cope with unusual situations... partly by collecting more data... and REW will offer more tools for doing so. And, to be quite blunt, it also might be interesting to find out how much better result DLBC could achieve than plain Dirac Live, in MOST rooms, for MOST systems. I honestly have not experimented with DLBC... But I can say, from personal experience, that neither The Holy Grail, nor Silver Bullets exist... So I am pretty sure that, while it may work well for some people, and even well enough to justify its price tag, it will NOT be either of those things. Dirac Live is quite probably the best room correction currently available... Which makes it a little bit better than EmoQ or Audyssey... And DLBC is probably a little bit better yet... especially if you have multiple subwoofers and a difficult room... But, no, it is neither The Holy Grail nor a Silver Bullet. And as I always hasten to point out ... Dirac Live does Impulse Response and Phase corrections. Even an "experienced expert" can't do that with EmoQ, or Audyssey, or REW, or standard PEQ filters. Considering going to left and right mono as opposed to my current center with a,a minidsp, my subs have 2 position switches as opposed to variable knobs. Really hesitant to revisit the REW rabbit hole, opinions? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 27, 2023 17:27:15 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree with you there... For minimal path length along the rabbit hole... I would try "the old school way". Connect the subs directly to the Left Sub and Right Sub outputs... (For this part I would shut off the amp so ONLY the subs are playing.) Find something with plenty of low bass, at least a bit below the crossover point, and listen from your prime listening spot... Try to set the subs so they're each individually making about the same AMOUNT of bass... (use a meter) Now, with both subs running, play with the controls on both subs so that you get THE MOST BASS... By doing that you will be setting the two subs to be in phase with each other (at the listening position). (If moving the subs is an option try to find locations with the most CLEAN bass while avoiding locations that deliver BOOMY bass.) Now power on the amp and let Dirac Live do a full room calibration. Dirac Live will calibrate all of the speakers... including the subs. By setting the subs first to be in phase we just made Dirac Live's job a bit easier. (They have to be set somewhere so we might as well make sure they're in phase with each other.) I think you might be surprised how good a job "plain old Dirac Live" does... And as I always hasten to point out ... Dirac Live does Impulse Response and Phase corrections. Even an "experienced expert" can't do that with EmoQ, or Audyssey, or REW, or standard PEQ filters. Considering going to left and right mono as opposed to my current center with a,a minidsp, my subs have 2 position switches as opposed to variable knobs. Really hesitant to revisit the REW rabbit hole, opinions? |
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 27, 2023 18:06:18 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree with you there... For minimal path length along the rabbit hole... I would try "the old school way". Connect the subs directly to the Left Sub and Right Sub outputs... (For this part I would shut off the amp so ONLY the subs are playing.) Find something with plenty of low bass, at least a bit below the crossover point, and listen from your prime listening spot... Try to set the subs so they're each individually making about the same AMOUNT of bass... (use a meter) Now, with both subs running, play with the controls on both subs so that you get THE MOST BASS... By doing that you will be setting the two subs to be in phase with each other (at the listening position). (If moving the subs is an option try to find locations with the most CLEAN bass while avoiding locations that deliver BOOMY bass.) Now power on the amp and let Dirac Live do a full room calibration. Dirac Live will calibrate all of the speakers... including the subs. By setting the subs first to be in phase we just made Dirac Live's job a bit easier. (They have to be set somewhere so we might as well make sure they're in phase with each other.) I think you might be surprised how good a job "plain old Dirac Live" does... Considering going to left and right mono as opposed to my current center with a,a minidsp, my subs have 2 position switches as opposed to variable knobs. Really hesitant to revisit the REW rabbit hole, opinions? Thanks Keith, hate to lose the middle heights but I'll give it a shot. |
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