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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 15:44:44 GMT -5
yes sir. You are correct in most of that. My listening position isn't the most ideal for sure, but it does still sound great in general. I do have the memory foam bed which helps tame some bass. I have 6 4 inch thick panels. They treat the 1st and 2nd reflection points on the side wall and the 1st point on the ceiling. The room is roughly 24*16*9.5. While not a perfect environment, it is very serviceable. So, yes.. I expect to have less quality than I would in my actual theatre room. However, I can spend a couple hours with REW exporting filters for PEQ and be quite pleased with it. It sounds fantastic even though I know it could sound better. Are some of these things impacting Dirac in ways that wouldn't happen with REW? Probably. Am I doing something wrong? Probably. Likely. Do I know how to fix it? Probably not. The first measurements I did were using 9 points across the bed between my wife's side and mine. The second measurement was only 3 points across a three foot span at my seat just to test something. I'm going to measure again and ensure that I am not having anything raised by more than 1db, or not at all. I'm going to flatten the curve toward the treble end. I may leave a little curve on the bass side since my subs have a few peaks anyways. Basically, I'll pretty much follow what they are naturally doing. I'm going to attempt to do less eq and more alignment if you will. I hope this will bring back the sonic dynamics I'm used to hearing. If so, I will dig in more to figure out what I did wrong previously and adjust. I want it to work. I was actually very excited to have something do this calibration for me because I'm tired of trying to learn it all. I want to just enjoy the sound. The normal way of measuring for DIRAC in multiple positions is based on assuming traditional seating, so I don't know what they would reco for sitting on a bed. That might be worth asking DIRAC. As marcl notes, the bed is likely acting as a large trap. He notes for bass, but with memory foam plus the various bedding materials - it might be trapping a lot of frequencies. As far as DIRAC doing something different than REW...it just might be. DIRAC accounts for both frequency and time domain effects. These are some very complicated filters, much like I used to work with on process controls in my Chemical Engineering training and work. The math used to develop such filters have embedded assumptions for the physics in play during the expected in-use situation. When I think of the bed itself and the extremely close (I assume...) proximity of your head to the back wall - the filter calculations may not do an adequate job for the situation and all the effects that are being created in front of you by the bed and with the back wall to your ears. Simply put, the embedded assumptions in the physics may no longer fully apply. You likely have huge, close proximity reflections from the back wall to your ears and huge absorption of energy in front of you. Again, the impact of your situation on the filters applicability is something I would ask DIRAC about as it's a very non-standard situation. Mark understand. Thank you for your time and input. To eliminate this, I may actually test at the foot of the bed just for comparison sake. That will put me 7ish feet off wall. It the sound is vibrant, cool. If it is similar, I'll assume that it is something else. |
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 27, 2020 15:48:02 GMT -5
Yes, it actually plays sound from bi-amp.. I cranked up the volume to -25db and switched between bi-amp on and off.. I could clearly hear that it had ”some” bass. But... I have very little bass, like the volume is 10db or more lower from the lower end. If not lower in volume then cut off not playing the lower frequencies. Tried with Stereo mode, wow.. A lot of bass.. Thought this might be because of my subs.. So went into speaker settings, turned off the subs, checked that the fronts were set to large. Again, a lot of bass in Stereo mode.. Thin, very thin in Reference Stereo. Confirmed that only the fronts are playing in both modes. I was wondering.. I now have two different manufacturers for my amps.. Anthem and Emotiva. Anthem MCA225 for the top end and Emotiva XPA gen 3 2x300W for the low end. Can there be a problem with the gain or something? But then again, why would Stereo mode have full bass volume? Btw Direct mode also have full bass volume. It’s almost like RMC remembers the Enhanced bass crossover frequency of 50hz and cuts it below only in Reference Stereo for the bi-amp speaker. The gain is the same for both amps so I can't see a problem there. I just checked my system with the following results: Bi Amp Fronts enabled, Enhanced Bass enabled Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are active Reference Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are not active Bi Amp Fronts enabled, Enhanced Bass disabled Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are not active Reference Stereo Mode: Subwoofers are not active This is correct for Enhanced Bass operation. Do you have any EQ applied for the Fronts? If so, this could account for a difference between Stereo (w/EQ) and Reference Stereo (no EQ). Yes, I can confirm that it behaves as you say, it always has.. Also no known EQ on my fronts, atleast not by me. Checked to be sure, no everything on the fronts are zero. Although I have PEQ on my subwoofers. It has always sounded good until I changed to bi-amp. But still volume or frequency cut off from bi-amp channel.. Have you tried set fronts to large and turn off enhanced bass. Starting a good song with bass and then switch on the fly between Stereo and Reference Stereo.. As long as no PEQ or calibration is applied it should sound very similar. Edit: Behaved exactly the same on firmware 1.10, before upgrading to 2.0. Did the factory reset, power drop for +1 minute and then restored the settings after upgrading to 2.0. Have had very little issues with it so far, other than a few ”no sound” which have requiered some input switching. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 16:02:56 GMT -5
Super random question, but does anyone know if Dirac will still adjust alignment if I "close the curtains" all the way? What I'm getting at is if I can keep Dirac from applying EQ, I might can determine whether this is more of an eq thing or an alignment thing.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 16:09:14 GMT -5
Yes, I can confirm that it behaves as you say, it always has.. Also no known EQ on my fronts, atleast not by me. Checked to be sure, no everything on the fronts are zero. Although I have PEQ on my subwoofers. It has always sounded good until I changed to bi-amp. But still volume or frequency cut off from bi-amp channel.. Have you tried set fronts to large and turn off enhanced bass. Starting a good song with bass and then switch on the fly between Stereo and Reference Stereo.. As long as no PEQ or calibration is applied it should sound very similar. Stereo and Ref Stereo sound the same when switching back and forth. Subs don't kick on. Enhanced Bass is Off. But there's something you may want to try. Put your speakers back to single wire. Reinstall the Jumpers on the speaker's binding posts, and use one amp/speaker for the Wide channel, and the other amp/speaker for the Main channel, both Right or both Left, just swap the cables around on the back of the processor. This will let you check the output from each channel using what is supposed to be the same signal. It will also let you compare the amps to each other. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 16:11:12 GMT -5
Super random question, but does anyone know if Dirac will still adjust alignment if I "close the curtains" all the way? What I'm getting at is if I can keep Dirac from applying EQ, I might can determine whether this is more of an eq thing or an alignment thing. I would say yes. Don't know why you wouldn't be able to dis-allow EQ, or at the very least, severely limit the amount of EQ. Maybe even just move the curtains all the way up to 20k. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 16:51:20 GMT -5
Here is some of my Dirac stuff for an example. I can paste more if needed. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 17:07:27 GMT -5
Super random question, but does anyone know if Dirac will still adjust alignment if I "close the curtains" all the way? What I'm getting at is if I can keep Dirac from applying EQ, I might can determine whether this is more of an eq thing or an alignment thing. I would say yes. Don't know why you wouldn't be able to dis-allow EQ, or at the very least, severely limit the amount of EQ. Maybe even just move the curtains all the way up to 20k. So, I am just taking a quick listening test. I closed the curtains all the way to the left on all speakers. I will say it sounds considerably better than before. I am getting a hair more optimistic. In doing a side by side between preset 1 (Dirac) and Preset 2 (levels matched and no PEQ) , preset 2 does still have a bit more vibrance, but I can see how the additional stuff is probably unwanted. It is too much reverberation and such. Preset 1 now seems like it is possibly behaving as it should. I'll adjust all my curves to limit raising anything. On another note, I'm at -10 in Surround mode and at 0 when I switch to N:X. So, I'm still getting the 10 dB loss of spl when using N:X. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 27, 2020 17:20:33 GMT -5
Here is some of my Dirac stuff for an example. I can paste more if needed. This all looks really good. Much like what I had with Dirac 1 and the XMC-1 and it sounded great. I really do think it's worth listening for a few days with a lot of different sources. |
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 27, 2020 17:26:33 GMT -5
Yes, I can confirm that it behaves as you say, it always has.. Also no known EQ on my fronts, atleast not by me. Checked to be sure, no everything on the fronts are zero. Although I have PEQ on my subwoofers. It has always sounded good until I changed to bi-amp. But still volume or frequency cut off from bi-amp channel.. Have you tried set fronts to large and turn off enhanced bass. Starting a good song with bass and then switch on the fly between Stereo and Reference Stereo.. As long as no PEQ or calibration is applied it should sound very similar. Stereo and Ref Stereo sound the same when switching back and forth. Subs don't kick on. Enhanced Bass is Off. But there's something you may want to try. Put your speakers back to single wire. Reinstall the Jumpers on the speaker's binding posts, and use one amp/speaker for the Wide channel, and the other amp/speaker for the Main channel, both Right or both Left, just swap the cables around on the back of the processor. This will let you check the output from each channel using what is supposed to be the same signal. It will also let you compare the amps to each other. Will try and report back. Thanks! Meanwhile.. Turned off the Anthem and listened only to the bi-amp.. There’s a HUGE volume difference there between Stereo and Reference Stereo.. Atleast 10-15db.. Haven’t measured it though.. Then I tried to switch the speaker cables on my speakers from high/low.. As the signal in bi-amp should be exactly the same there should be no problems.. But hey.. I have a strange echo and it sounds muddy. Switch to Stereo.. Sounds fine! There is something going on here for sure.. Btw what input did you try? I’m getting input from analog 1.. From digital input it all sounds fine even in Reference Stereo.. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 17:53:33 GMT -5
Stereo and Ref Stereo sound the same when switching back and forth. Subs don't kick on. Enhanced Bass is Off. But there's something you may want to try. Put your speakers back to single wire. Reinstall the Jumpers on the speaker's binding posts, and use one amp/speaker for the Wide channel, and the other amp/speaker for the Main channel, both Right or both Left, just swap the cables around on the back of the processor. This will let you check the output from each channel using what is supposed to be the same signal. It will also let you compare the amps to each other. Will try and report back. Thanks! Meanwhile.. Turned off the Anthem and listened only to the bi-amp.. There’s a HUGE volume difference there between Stereo and Reference Stereo.. Atleast 10-15db.. Haven’t measured it though.. Then I tried to switch the speaker cables on my speakers from high/low.. As the signal in bi-amp should be exactly the same there should be no problems.. But hey.. I have a strange echo and it sounds muddy. Switch to Stereo.. Sounds fine! There is something going on here for sure.. Btw what input did you try? I’m getting input from analog 1.. From digital input it all sounds fine even in Reference Stereo.. I did not use an analog input. I can try it though. The echo is a delay. The volume difference between Stereo and Reference Stereo doesn't make sense. There's got to be something, somewhere, buried in the settings that's causing these issues. I think a Factory Reset is in your future. Backup your settings, then wipe them out with a Factory Reset. Something is not what it should be. Make sure to set the Turn-On Volume to a low setting! Always my first step after Factory Reset. Only setup the minimum of speakers, Fronts:: Large, and Front Width:: Bi Amp Front. I just did this with my Preset 2 to make sure the Bi Amp feature would work with only the Fronts. So this will mean there is no correction, no EQ, no delay, no subs, nuthin'. I'd be shocked if there is still an issue. One last thing, are you using any outboard devices? miniDSP etc? |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 17:59:39 GMT -5
Here is some of my Dirac stuff for an example. I can paste more if needed. This all looks really good. Much like what I had with Dirac 1 and the XMC-1 and it sounded great. I really do think it's worth listening for a few days with a lot of different sources. it was only 3 measurements. I'll do a full set of measurements in the next few days now that I have got something working better. |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 18:08:23 GMT -5
Ok, I have some good news. After my test with basically no filters, I got my "dynamics back" To put it simply. So, I went back thru and altered the curves to more so hug the dips closely while allowing it to minimize the peaks. I added a handful of additional points to address this. I did implement the harmon +6db on my subs because they were already up there anyways. Bottom line.. I tried to eliminate any raising of dips on all the speaker groups. I also added a group for my rear tops because they were a bit different than the fronts.
All in all, I am content with what it sounds like. I can see some value in some things it is doing. Anything I might think is bad is probably just different and I'll need a day or two to adjust. I think it is a pretty good balance between some of the wildness I still had in the room and some control without being over the top to deaden the room.
Most importantly, it sounds so much better than my first tests without adjusting the curves at all. It sounded horrid. Now, it sounds pretty good. I think better, but give me a week. I'm planning to run the full set of measurements at some point in hopes this will result in a better outcome. I also may test a different location for my two subs to see if I can get the spl up some first.
Thanks everyone for helping me through this. I assumed I was the problem on this one and it looks as if I was correct.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 18:21:36 GMT -5
hsamwelI did a Factory Reset and only setup the Fronts and Bi Amp Fronts. I connected my Left Front interconnect to the Right Width output. So the Right Front out is going to the Right speaker, and the Right Width out is going to the Left speaker. Stereo and Reference Stereo measure at the same volume level. The audio is dead center, which means that the output is the same going to the Left and the Right. I highly suggest that you do the same. Put the jumpers back on your speakers and connect as I have, and drive both with the same amp type. When I tried to use a different amp and speaker there was a humongous difference in output level.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 27, 2020 18:31:05 GMT -5
hsamwel You are not crazy!!!!I just connected a single RCA cable from an OPPO 105 to Analog 1 and the sound is NOT THE SAME for Front Right and Bi Amp Front Right!!!! This is a weird BUG. I'll report it right away. My diagnosis of your sanity is not official however, because I'm not a licensed medical professional. Sorry. And I stand corrected. I apologize for blaming a rabid setting in your processor. Hopefully your processor and I can get along better in the future. edit: now I am noticing the delay you spoke about.
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Post by davidl81 on Jul 27, 2020 19:47:14 GMT -5
So I installed Dirac and so far the results have been fair. It has brought out the mid range for sure, specifically the vocals are much more pronounced in movies. Bass wise it seems a little tame, but it is much more even throughout the room. I can just bump up the gain on the subs if I want a little more there.
Volume wise I have to go to -10dB where before I was at -25dB or so. Maybe a little less delta but I do have to crank up the RMC a lot more to get the same volume. Of course that doesn’t really matter, but I figured it was worth noting.
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Post by klinemj on Jul 27, 2020 20:07:48 GMT -5
Ok, I have some good news. After my test with basically no filters, I got my "dynamics back" To put it simply. So, I went back thru and altered the curves to more so hug the dips closely while allowing it to minimize the peaks. I added a handful of additional points to address this. I did implement the harmon +6db on my subs because they were already up there anyways. Bottom line.. I tried to eliminate any raising of dips on all the speaker groups. I also added a group for my rear tops because they were a bit different than the fronts. All in all, I am content with what it sounds like. I can see some value in some things it is doing. Anything I might think is bad is probably just different and I'll need a day or two to adjust. I think it is a pretty good balance between some of the wildness I still had in the room and some control without being over the top to deaden the room. Most importantly, it sounds so much better than my first tests without adjusting the curves at all. It sounded horrid. Now, it sounds pretty good. I think better, but give me a week. I'm planning to run the full set of measurements at some point in hopes this will result in a better outcome. I also may test a different location for my two subs to see if I can get the spl up some first. Thanks everyone for helping me through this. I assumed I was the problem on this one and it looks as if I was correct. So, let me make sure I understand...I think I do. You modified the target curve very locally so DIRAC didn't try to raise the low points, but did trim off any peaks. And, before doing that and using the standard target curves, DIRAC would have been been limiting how much it brings up the dips, therefore to bring everything flat it was bringing everything down in level across the whole spectrum to match how much it could bring up the dips. And this "bringing down all the levels" is what you perceived as a loss of dynamics. Correct? Mark |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 20:30:55 GMT -5
Ok, I have some good news. After my test with basically no filters, I got my "dynamics back" To put it simply. So, I went back thru and altered the curves to more so hug the dips closely while allowing it to minimize the peaks. I added a handful of additional points to address this. I did implement the harmon +6db on my subs because they were already up there anyways. Bottom line.. I tried to eliminate any raising of dips on all the speaker groups. I also added a group for my rear tops because they were a bit different than the fronts. All in all, I am content with what it sounds like. I can see some value in some things it is doing. Anything I might think is bad is probably just different and I'll need a day or two to adjust. I think it is a pretty good balance between some of the wildness I still had in the room and some control without being over the top to deaden the room. Most importantly, it sounds so much better than my first tests without adjusting the curves at all. It sounded horrid. Now, it sounds pretty good. I think better, but give me a week. I'm planning to run the full set of measurements at some point in hopes this will result in a better outcome. I also may test a different location for my two subs to see if I can get the spl up some first. Thanks everyone for helping me through this. I assumed I was the problem on this one and it looks as if I was correct. So, let me make sure I understand...I think I do. You modified the target curve very locally so DIRAC didn't try to raise the low points, but did trim off any peaks. And, before doing that and using the standard target curves, DIRAC would have been been limiting how much it brings up the dips, therefore to bring everything flat it was bringing everything down in level across the whole spectrum to match how much it could bring up the dips. And this "bringing down all the levels" is what you perceived as a loss of dynamics. Correct? Mark I mean yes and no. There was clearly a volume issue, but there were also things missing and a very different sound. Meaning, just cranking up the volume didn't help those things. It was quiet bad and then loud bad. Now, I do have to turn up the volume some, but at any volume, I have the stuff that was missing. I can only compare it to not having any treatments in a bad room to treating the entire wall in a good room. One is too live and the other flat dead. I feel like I'm proper placement and a couple more panels away from stellar sound now. It may have been other things Dirac did to tame everything prior. Like.. Too many filters and such that killed the sound. I don't know. I used the same saved file and only modified the curves. Also, the wife walked in and immediately said "that sounds a lot better". I will probably do more research on mastering these techniques with Dirac so I have a better understanding. I still feel like I'm missing a little of that 60-80 hz punch, but I haven't measured to see if I have a dip there now. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 27, 2020 22:04:10 GMT -5
So, let me make sure I understand...I think I do. You modified the target curve very locally so DIRAC didn't try to raise the low points, but did trim off any peaks. And, before doing that and using the standard target curves, DIRAC would have been been limiting how much it brings up the dips, therefore to bring everything flat it was bringing everything down in level across the whole spectrum to match how much it could bring up the dips. And this "bringing down all the levels" is what you perceived as a loss of dynamics. Correct? Mark I mean yes and no. There was clearly a volume issue, but there were also things missing and a very different sound. Meaning, just cranking up the volume didn't help those things. It was quiet bad and then loud bad. Now, I do have to turn up the volume some, but at any volume, I have the stuff that was missing. I can only compare it to not having any treatments in a bad room to treating the entire wall in a good room. One is too live and the other flat dead. I feel like I'm proper placement and a couple more panels away from stellar sound now. It may have been other things Dirac did to tame everything prior. Like.. Too many filters and such that killed the sound. I don't know. I used the same saved file and only modified the curves. Also, the wife walked in and immediately said "that sounds a lot better". I will probably do more research on mastering these techniques with Dirac so I have a better understanding. I still feel like I'm missing a little of that 60-80 hz punch, but I haven't measured to see if I have a dip there now. But...just to be clear...you modified the target curve locally so it would not try to raise the dips yet would trim the tops. Correct? You didn't directly answer that...you just described the sound result. I'm trying to understand what you did to get the sound you like better. Mark |
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Post by megash0n on Jul 27, 2020 22:15:22 GMT -5
I mean yes and no. There was clearly a volume issue, but there were also things missing and a very different sound. Meaning, just cranking up the volume didn't help those things. It was quiet bad and then loud bad. Now, I do have to turn up the volume some, but at any volume, I have the stuff that was missing. I can only compare it to not having any treatments in a bad room to treating the entire wall in a good room. One is too live and the other flat dead. I feel like I'm proper placement and a couple more panels away from stellar sound now. It may have been other things Dirac did to tame everything prior. Like.. Too many filters and such that killed the sound. I don't know. I used the same saved file and only modified the curves. Also, the wife walked in and immediately said "that sounds a lot better". I will probably do more research on mastering these techniques with Dirac so I have a better understanding. I still feel like I'm missing a little of that 60-80 hz punch, but I haven't measured to see if I have a dip there now. But...just to be clear...you modified the target curve locally so it would not try to raise the dips yet would trim the tops. Correct? You didn't directly answer that...you just described the sound result. I'm trying to understand what you did to get the sound you like better. Mark Sorry. I thought I did answer that. I'm not sure what you mean when you say locally. I modified the target curve to basically bring most of the peaks down to 0 and to follow the response below 0. Trim the tops and don't raise the dips. 😊 |
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Post by creimes on Jul 28, 2020 0:20:42 GMT -5
I would say yes. Don't know why you wouldn't be able to dis-allow EQ, or at the very least, severely limit the amount of EQ. Maybe even just move the curtains all the way up to 20k. So, I am just taking a quick listening test. I closed the curtains all the way to the left on all speakers. I will say it sounds considerably better than before. I am getting a hair more optimistic. In doing a side by side between preset 1 (Dirac) and Preset 2 (levels matched and no PEQ) , preset 2 does still have a bit more vibrance, but I can see how the additional stuff is probably unwanted. It is too much reverberation and such. Preset 1 now seems like it is possibly behaving as it should. I'll adjust all my curves to limit raising anything. On another note, I'm at -10 in Surround mode and at 0 when I switch to N:X. So, I'm still getting the 10 dB loss of spl when using N:X. One thing I noticed when I first ran Dirac on my XMC-1 is it sounded flatter, which is what it's supposed to do but we get used to a certain EQ of sound, say the guy that owned Marantz gear all his life or the one that only had klipsch speakers, just examples but I gave myself time with Dirac engaged I became to love it, for music one of my favorite bands from back in the 90's to the present is Radiohead, I found with a flatter response I could hear more of the music, I did need to raise the low end a bit as I do prefer a tad more bass than a completely flat response  Chad |
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