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Post by foggy1956 on Jan 30, 2024 16:10:28 GMT -5
This is a direct comparison of Dirac and Audyssey (pronounced OH-di-SAY) using a Denon receiver. Both Denon and Marantz allow you to run either brand of room correction and they both support DLBC. ( BTW ... Gene and Matthew at Audioholics have said they were planning a similar quantitative/qualitative comparison using the Marantz receiver in Gene's room ... but they haven't done that yet.) Anyways, here John gives his subjective impressions first, then shows some interesting REW measurements. Note that he doesn't show any measurements other than frequency response. I would like to also see Impulse Response and Clarity measurements ... but like pretty much everyone else, he ignores the fact that ONLY Dirac corrects Phase and Impulse. The results seem pretty conclusive ... Interesting watch, wish we knew what Emotiva is going to do. |
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ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jan 30, 2024 23:11:17 GMT -5
I don't consider it a waste, I want more mics. I've used multiple mics connected concurrently for various tests I've done, and it saved a lot of time vs moving one mic around. I'm glad I have the UMIK-1 with USB-A....I'm wondering if there is a "fix" in the works for the USB-C mics? No fix coming from miniDSP or Dirac or macOS. I haven't yet delved into using WinOS yet, but plan to soon. I don't know what the exact cause of the issue is, but I do know some things about this issue but need to test first. I'll post what I find, probably next week. |
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Post by msimanyi on Jan 31, 2024 13:27:27 GMT -5
This is a direct comparison of Dirac and Audyssey (pronounced OH-di-SAY) using a Denon receiver.... Wow - that graph with DLBC invoked is quite surprising to me. Impressive! |
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Post by dkaudio on Feb 1, 2024 13:34:16 GMT -5
I was running Dirac and was getting errors I have never seen before and could not find any information on. While performing a measurement, I kept receiving errors of "instances of lost samples". Some measurements took over 10 times to go through! I tried uninstalling and reinstalling Dirac (latest 3.8.2 version), rebooting, different USB ports for the mic, etc. Sometimes, the measurements for a position would go through, then there would be an exclamation point on the measurement position stating there was an issue and it could not be used. I finally got them all done after a really high number of attempts, proceeded to play with the curtains and loaded the filters. The XMC-2 is WAY quieter now. I used to go around -15 to show off the system (loud), now I can go in the + range which is kind of scary. The odd thing is, I pulled the curtains in way lower this time to 400hz or so. I should have way more head room. Any ideas on either issue? Did it say that the measurement completed but was inaccurate and could not be used for phase filters? Apologize for the delay, been traveling out of state for work. The instances of lost samples would pop up when the test tones were playing. If I saw that pop up, I canceled the measurement and restarted it. The other error would show up after running the measurements for a position (no errors appeared during the actual measurement). The measurement location icon had an exclamation point and yes, I do believe it said it could not be used for phase filters. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Feb 1, 2024 14:26:42 GMT -5
Did it say that the measurement completed but was inaccurate and could not be used for phase filters? Apologize for the delay, been traveling out of state for work. The instances of lost samples would pop up when the test tones were playing. If I saw that pop up, I canceled the measurement and restarted it. The other error would show up after running the measurements for a position (no errors appeared during the actual measurement). The measurement location icon had an exclamation point and yes, I do believe it said it could not be used for phase filters. I'm running a 7.2.4 config and getting the same message, when I remove the rear speakers the sweeps run without problems. Working with Dirac on this but no solution so far. |
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Post by dkaudio on Feb 2, 2024 9:09:09 GMT -5
Apologize for the delay, been traveling out of state for work. The instances of lost samples would pop up when the test tones were playing. If I saw that pop up, I canceled the measurement and restarted it. The other error would show up after running the measurements for a position (no errors appeared during the actual measurement). The measurement location icon had an exclamation point and yes, I do believe it said it could not be used for phase filters. I'm running a 7.2.4 config and getting the same message, when I remove the rear speakers the sweeps run without problems. Working with Dirac on this but no solution so far. Thanks, at least it is not just me...I'm only running 5.2 (center sub out though). |
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Post by foggy1956 on Feb 2, 2024 9:58:04 GMT -5
I'm running a 7.2.4 config and getting the same message, when I remove the rear speakers the sweeps run without problems. Working with Dirac on this but no solution so far. Thanks, at least it is not just me...I'm only running 5.2 (center sub out though). If time allows, start with just the towers enabled and see what happens. Then add more speakers until it goes wonky, may help me with the Dirac people if you don't mind? |
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Post by marcl on Feb 8, 2024 7:36:13 GMT -5
As it happened I was going to do a Dirac calibration yesterday because I changed my center channel configuration. I was wondering if proximity to the couch and reflections from the leather were causing some funny stuff in the center impulse and frequency response, so I was going to try moving the MLP measurement forward a few inches and pile up a blanket on the headrest. Then I saw this posted on the AVS Dirac Forum: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFbO_x77zjQ&t=1sYou don't really have to watch it, I'll explain … the guy goes on for 33 minutes about how he spent a week trying dozens of measurement patterns. His premise is that in reality nobody in the house cares about imaging and soundstage but him, so he set out to optimize it for his chair. He has what looks to be a 5.1.4 system with the theater seats against the back wall so surrounds are mounted to the wall either side and a bit above. Atmos rear top position is compromised a bit. Here's a graphic I made to illustrate. All measurements on the same plane ... just a sixpack with the MLP rear center 8” from the couch (about where your nose would be) and everything 8" apart all on a flat plane at ear level..  The measured results were excellent with much better impulse responses and flatter frequency response. Audible improvement was immediately evident, and in some ways astounding! The first transient I heard - metal on metal striking a triangle - was sharper and clearer than I had ever heard it. The 2-Channel image on all my benchmark tracks dropped very solidly to dead center in front of me, and a bit more forward ... less diffuse. All in a good way. And then Atmos imaging ... spectacular, precise ... and I confirmed with Dark Side of the Moon ... the lunatic (INDEED) is in my head! Measurements. Dirac filters were done with flat target curves and curtains to the edge of the measured response for each speaker. I used the Spears & Munsil newest test disc to set levels after the filters were loaded. I think it's the most accurate and consistent method. I used Spatial Audio Toolkit files to do the 7.1.4 sweeps with REW measuring results. Frequency response is with Psychoacoustic smoothing. I've also included here C80 Music Clarity. Clarity measurements above 20db are considered good.    p.s. When setting up Volume Calibration in Dirac I set the mic level to 96% which results in a Master Gain of -22db in order to get sub level at -18db and all other speakers at -24db. The noise floor in my room at the time of measurement was 44dbC. These settings resulted in the volume of the measurement sweeps to peak at 88db without clipping. Setting the mic level a bit lower than 100% causes a higher Master Gain which in turn causes higher volume of measurement sweeps. In my system lowering the mic level from 100% to 96% increases the peak measurement volume from 75db to 88db. better signal to noise ratio for the sweeps. |
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Post by geebo on Feb 8, 2024 9:54:50 GMT -5
As it happened I was going to do a Dirac calibration yesterday because I changed my center channel configuration. I was wondering if proximity to the couch and reflections from the leather were causing some funny stuff in the center impulse and frequency response, so I was going to try moving the MLP measurement forward a few inches and pile up a blanket on the headrest. Then I saw this posted on the AVS Dirac Forum: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFbO_x77zjQ&t=1sYou don't really have to watch it, I'll explain … the guy goes on for 33 minutes about how he spent a week trying dozens of measurement patterns. His premise is that in reality nobody in the house cares about imaging and soundstage but him, so he set out to optimize it for his chair. He has what looks to be a 5.1.4 system with the theater seats against the back wall so surrounds are mounted to the wall either side and a bit above. Atmos rear top position is compromised a bit. Here's a graphic I made to illustrate. All measurements on the same plane ... just a sixpack with the MLP rear center 8” from the couch (about where your nose would be) and everything 8" apart all on a flat plane at ear level.. View AttachmentThe measured results were excellent with much better impulse responses and flatter frequency response. Audible improvement was immediately evident, and in some ways astounding! The first transient I heard - metal on metal striking a triangle - was sharper and clearer than I had ever heard it. The 2-Channel image on all my benchmark tracks dropped very solidly to dead center in front of me, and a bit more forward ... less diffuse. All in a good way. And then Atmos imaging ... spectacular, precise ... and I confirmed with Dark Side of the Moon ... the lunatic (INDEED) is in my head! Measurements. Dirac filters were done with flat target curves and curtains to the edge of the measured response for each speaker. I used the Spears & Munsil newest test disc to set levels after the filters were loaded. I think it's the most accurate and consistent method. I used Spatial Audio Toolkit files to do the 7.1.4 sweeps with REW measuring results. Frequency response is with Psychoacoustic smoothing. I've also included here C80 Music Clarity. Clarity measurements above 20db are considered good. View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachmentp.s. When setting up Volume Calibration in Dirac I set the mic level to 96% which results in a Master Gain of -22db in order to get sub level at -18db and all other speakers at -24db. The noise floor in my room at the time of measurement was 44dbC. These settings resulted in the volume of the measurement sweeps to peak at 88db without clipping. Setting the mic level a bit lower than 100% causes a higher Master Gain which in turn causes higher volume of measurement sweeps. In my system lowering the mic level from 100% to 96% increases the peak measurement volume from 75db to 88db. better signal to noise ratio for the sweeps. Very interesting. I assume you used the focused measurement arrangement so which 6 of those 9 mic positions did you use? |
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Post by marcl on Feb 8, 2024 10:35:19 GMT -5
As it happened I was going to do a Dirac calibration yesterday because I changed my center channel configuration. I was wondering if proximity to the couch and reflections from the leather were causing some funny stuff in the center impulse and frequency response, so I was going to try moving the MLP measurement forward a few inches and pile up a blanket on the headrest. Then I saw this posted on the AVS Dirac Forum: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFbO_x77zjQ&t=1sYou don't really have to watch it, I'll explain … the guy goes on for 33 minutes about how he spent a week trying dozens of measurement patterns. His premise is that in reality nobody in the house cares about imaging and soundstage but him, so he set out to optimize it for his chair. He has what looks to be a 5.1.4 system with the theater seats against the back wall so surrounds are mounted to the wall either side and a bit above. Atmos rear top position is compromised a bit. Here's a graphic I made to illustrate. All measurements on the same plane ... just a sixpack with the MLP rear center 8” from the couch (about where your nose would be) and everything 8" apart all on a flat plane at ear level.. View AttachmentThe measured results were excellent with much better impulse responses and flatter frequency response. Audible improvement was immediately evident, and in some ways astounding! The first transient I heard - metal on metal striking a triangle - was sharper and clearer than I had ever heard it. The 2-Channel image on all my benchmark tracks dropped very solidly to dead center in front of me, and a bit more forward ... less diffuse. All in a good way. And then Atmos imaging ... spectacular, precise ... and I confirmed with Dark Side of the Moon ... the lunatic (INDEED) is in my head! Measurements. Dirac filters were done with flat target curves and curtains to the edge of the measured response for each speaker. I used the Spears & Munsil newest test disc to set levels after the filters were loaded. I think it's the most accurate and consistent method. I used Spatial Audio Toolkit files to do the 7.1.4 sweeps with REW measuring results. Frequency response is with Psychoacoustic smoothing. I've also included here C80 Music Clarity. Clarity measurements above 20db are considered good. View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachmentp.s. When setting up Volume Calibration in Dirac I set the mic level to 96% which results in a Master Gain of -22db in order to get sub level at -18db and all other speakers at -24db. The noise floor in my room at the time of measurement was 44dbC. These settings resulted in the volume of the measurement sweeps to peak at 88db without clipping. Setting the mic level a bit lower than 100% causes a higher Master Gain which in turn causes higher volume of measurement sweeps. In my system lowering the mic level from 100% to 96% increases the peak measurement volume from 75db to 88db. better signal to noise ratio for the sweeps. Very interesting. I assume you used the focused measurement arrangement so which 6 of those 9 mic positions did you use? I happened to use Tightly Focused and selected the top four for the outer measurements and the bottom front for the extra center point ... but it realty doesn't matter. The only measurement that Dirac needs to be specified is MLP. The others can be any random order because it doesn't do anything but apply its overall algorithm. And BTW, I always return the mic to the MLP and take that one again, so I can leave it there for the subsequent levels and sweep measurements. |
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Post by PaulBe on Feb 8, 2024 11:04:00 GMT -5
As it happened I was going to do a Dirac calibration yesterday because I changed my center channel configuration. I was wondering if proximity to the couch and reflections from the leather were causing some funny stuff in the center impulse and frequency response, so I was going to try moving the MLP measurement forward a few inches and pile up a blanket on the headrest. Then I saw this posted on the AVS Dirac Forum: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFbO_x77zjQ&t=1sYou don't really have to watch it, I'll explain … the guy goes on for 33 minutes about how he spent a week trying dozens of measurement patterns. His premise is that in reality nobody in the house cares about imaging and soundstage but him, so he set out to optimize it for his chair. He has what looks to be a 5.1.4 system with the theater seats against the back wall so surrounds are mounted to the wall either side and a bit above. Atmos rear top position is compromised a bit. Here's a graphic I made to illustrate. All measurements on the same plane ... just a sixpack with the MLP rear center 8” from the couch (about where your nose would be) and everything 8" apart all on a flat plane at ear level.. View AttachmentThe measured results were excellent with much better impulse responses and flatter frequency response. Audible improvement was immediately evident, and in some ways astounding! The first transient I heard - metal on metal striking a triangle - was sharper and clearer than I had ever heard it. The 2-Channel image on all my benchmark tracks dropped very solidly to dead center in front of me, and a bit more forward ... less diffuse. All in a good way. And then Atmos imaging ... spectacular, precise ... and I confirmed with Dark Side of the Moon ... the lunatic (INDEED) is in my head! Measurements. Dirac filters were done with flat target curves and curtains to the edge of the measured response for each speaker. I used the Spears & Munsil newest test disc to set levels after the filters were loaded. I think it's the most accurate and consistent method. I used Spatial Audio Toolkit files to do the 7.1.4 sweeps with REW measuring results. Frequency response is with Psychoacoustic smoothing. I've also included here C80 Music Clarity. Clarity measurements above 20db are considered good. View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachmentp.s. When setting up Volume Calibration in Dirac I set the mic level to 96% which results in a Master Gain of -22db in order to get sub level at -18db and all other speakers at -24db. The noise floor in my room at the time of measurement was 44dbC. These settings resulted in the volume of the measurement sweeps to peak at 88db without clipping. Setting the mic level a bit lower than 100% causes a higher Master Gain which in turn causes higher volume of measurement sweeps. In my system lowering the mic level from 100% to 96% increases the peak measurement volume from 75db to 88db. better signal to noise ratio for the sweeps. I lay a wool crochet comforter across the low back cushions of my leather couch. It helps diminish the 'splash' from the cushions. The new S&M disc is my reference for levels. The right noise spectrum and consistent levels. I like the other sound tests on it too. MLP is the only seat in a HT worth optimizing. I like your new procedure. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 8, 2024 11:37:19 GMT -5
Very interesting. I assume you used the focused measurement arrangement so which 6 of those 9 mic positions did you use? I happened to use Tightly Focused and selected the top four for the outer measurements and the bottom front for the extra center point ... but it realty doesn't matter. The only measurement that Dirac needs to be specified is MLP. The others can be any random order because it doesn't do anything but apply its overall algorithm. And BTW, I always return the mic to the MLP and take that one again, so I can leave it there for the subsequent levels and sweep measurements. Here are a couple of visual aids. The "Sixpack" arrangement (Red MLP position and Yellow other positions) show where the microphone is actually placed, and the Red dot is the MLP location required in all Dirac Measurements. The second image is a representation of what Dirac might show for an arrangement as a guide. So, while I actually place my mic in a grid of six positions with 8 inch spacing, I must select from the dots in the Dirac Arrangement as a placeholder for the data acquired from the actual mic positions. Since it makes no difference to Dirac, the Purple dots are what I selected for saving the measurements into.   |
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Post by marcl on Feb 8, 2024 11:41:32 GMT -5
I'll repeat a couple things that have been mentioned before but are easily forgotten ... and especially for those new to Dirac: - It's important to take several measurements, not for Dirac to do a simple arithmetic average, but so that they can analyze the differences and identify minimum phase and non-minimum phase anomalies .... they will not attempt to correct the latter, because correction for one location would cause problems in another.
- Among the unique things that Dirac does is their "mixed-phase" filter correction ... it is not simple PEQ like REW, EmoQ, etc.
- Phase and Impulse Response correction - which other systems (except Trinnov) do not do - have a profound impact on clarity and imaging and soundstage.
So this measurement method is tighter than recommended by Dirac and some of the other forums. But it works for me and some others. And the tradeoff of sound quality in other seats may not be very much. Depends on the room.
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Post by webmst007 on Feb 8, 2024 15:41:10 GMT -5
Nice work Marc
Might be time to have another Dirac session.😁🙏👌
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Post by marcl on Feb 12, 2024 15:34:37 GMT -5
So I figure, since I sit in my seat when I listen .... I should sit in my seat when I calibrate   Not just being silly, this was a controlled test. I sat still, moved the mic for each measurement and measured the distances with a ruler, and ran Dirac with my trackball while watching results on the BFTV. The other part of the test was to do the "Domino" or "6-Pack" arrangement for measurements, but do it selecting all the measurement dots on one side of the diagram ... and then all of the dots on the other side. Run the two sets of filters with identical measurements, differing only in which dots I selected in the arrangement graphic. (i.e. for each mic position I ran the measurement, selected a different dot, ran the measurement again ... but did not move the mic) The MLP measurement was identical for both test cases. I saved all 11 measurements, but when I opened the measurements to create filters I deleted the left set or the right set. What I found was there is NO difference. The MLP is important and for both test cases I only measured the MLP once and used that measurement. But selecting one set of dots or the other ... Dirac does not care. You can pick any dot for any measurement. Yeah, Dirac has said this and we kinda knew. But since this measurement method is unconventional, I decided to verify.  |
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Post by marcl on Feb 13, 2024 11:31:52 GMT -5
Another interesting video from Ripewave. He's reviewing the Denon AVR X6800H and is spending a lot of time on Dirac Live, DLBC and Audyssey. Part 3 is specific to DLBC. Part 4 compares calibration with Dirac Live/DLBC and Audyssey. Part 5 focuses on Audyssey MultiEQ-X calibration. And this one - Part 6 - is an attempt to see if modifying Audyssey MultEQ-X configuration can get it to sound as good as Dirac Live.
The answer is, no. He was able to get the frequency response to look virtually identical - a big improvement over the base Audyssey settings - but he says Dirac Live still sounds better.
So what's the reason? It's the part that most everyone forgets or neglects: Dirac Live does impulse response correction, and other room correction systems do not. (Trinnov being the $30k exception of course)
(p.s. I will quibble with one aspect of his measurement process and it's not evident unless you look closely at the REW legend under the graph ... he's always measuring L+R. I think summing L+R is not the best way to compare. It would be better to either show L/R separately ... or just pick one channel for the sake of comparison. And one more thing .... he COULD have looked at the impulse response plots to see if Audyssey and Dirac look different ... it's just a click of the tab above the graph.)
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lgjr
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Post by lgjr on Feb 18, 2024 8:58:29 GMT -5
I'm using the latest 3.9.1 version of Dirac and the microphone isn't picking up any sound. Dirac connects to the RMC1 without a hitch. Sound comes from the speakers, but doesn't register in Dirac. Doesn't work no matter which version of Dirac I use. I've checked computer settings to make sure Dirac is allowed to use the mic and the umik2 is selected. I get a warning of "error during measurement" (not ready). Any ideas?
RMC1, ATI SIGNATURE 6003, ATI AT5228 8CH AMP, LG OLED CX77, OPPO 203, PROJECT XPRESSION CARBON,LUMAGEN PRO, LEGACY FOCUS SE Front Main, LEGACY MARQUIS Center, LEGACY PHANTOMS Surrounds, LEGACY PHANTOMS Rear Surrounds, RYTHMIK FV25HP(2) & XTZ Sub3(2)
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Feb 18, 2024 9:48:19 GMT -5
I'm using the latest 3.9.1 version of Dirac and the microphone isn't picking up any sound. Dirac connects to the RMC1 without a hitch. Sound comes from the speakers, but doesn't register in Dirac. Doesn't work no matter which version of Dirac I use. I've checked computer settings to make sure Dirac is allowed to use the mic and the umik2 is selected. I get a warning of "error during measurement" (not ready). Any ideas? RMC1, ATI SIGNATURE 6003, ATI AT5228 8CH AMP, LG OLED CX77, OPPO 203, PROJECT XPRESSION CARBON,LUMAGEN PRO, LEGACY FOCUS SE Front Main, LEGACY MARQUIS Center, LEGACY PHANTOMS Surrounds, LEGACY PHANTOMS Rear Surrounds, RYTHMIK FV25HP(2) & XTZ Sub3(2) Did this problem happen after a change of something, like new version of Dirac, new mic, etc? |
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lgjr
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Posts: 60
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Post by lgjr on Feb 18, 2024 15:18:07 GMT -5
Seems to be a computer settings problem. Tried running a calibration on my previous laptop and everything worked. Did a full calibration with 3.9.1.. I previously did a calibration on my new computer in Dec 23 without a hitch.
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Post by webmst007 on Feb 18, 2024 21:20:05 GMT -5
If you run REW on that bit of kit - does the umik2 work with REW ? If not - try refreshing the ASIO for all driver for the mic inside REW. If the mic is still not working in REW - try a refresh of the mic ASIO driver and then restart REW and see if that clears it then try restarting the computer first with the mic attached and then if it's still a pain try without the umik2 attached. Then start REW and after its fully loaded then attach the mic. The USB driver setup in Windows is a pain sometimes so that could well be your issue.
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