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Post by geebo on Nov 20, 2024 12:54:19 GMT -5
Since seeing a video (which I can't seem to find) where a guy spent days trying various Dirac measurement patterns until he found one that seemed to be best for a single listener ... I've been using this "Six-Pack" or "Domino" pattern ... roughly depicted here ... View AttachmentAll the measurements are on the same plane 8" apart, with the critical MLP measurement #1 in the middle of the rear row. It works great! So after watching the video someone posted recently where Theo from Audioholics goes through measurement patterns for Dirac, Audyssey and ARC ... and after recently watching some videos with Carl Tatz who designs mixing rooms with his "Phantom Center" method ... I got to thinking that maybe I'd try doing some high and low measurements along with measuring the MLP a little more behind my actual ears. Tatz puts the focal point of his room timing 20" behind the MLP. I wasn't going to go to that extreme and it really doesn't work with multichannel unless you have individual control of each speaker's distance, which we don't with Dirac. So okay I tried to do a multiple exposure to show this new pattern relative to my actual ears... black cap in place so as not to glare off my old bald head  View AttachmentI recline the couch all the way when I measure, and pile on a blanket to absorb close reflections from the leather. So you see the MLP measurement is maybe a foot behind where my ears are when I adjust the couch for actual listening. Then I went two high in the rear on either side. Then 8" forward with two low L/R, and the center higher than the MLP was. I'm listening now. A lot of stuff sounds really great and that could be that Dirac 3.11 is doing something new too. The imaging and soundstage is different and in many cases especially Atmos and 5.1 music it really seems to be better. Feels more forward and three dimensional. I feel like some stereo tracks sound different aside from imaging and soundstage. Have to listen some more and give it time. p.s. Easier to imagine taking 7 photos and blending them in Photoshop, than it turned out to be. But I hope you get the idea from this composite. I don't sit in the seat when I measure. How is the center phantom image with stereo material? |
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Post by marcl on Nov 20, 2024 13:08:51 GMT -5
Since seeing a video (which I can't seem to find) where a guy spent days trying various Dirac measurement patterns until he found one that seemed to be best for a single listener ... I've been using this "Six-Pack" or "Domino" pattern ... roughly depicted here ... View AttachmentAll the measurements are on the same plane 8" apart, with the critical MLP measurement #1 in the middle of the rear row. It works great! So after watching the video someone posted recently where Theo from Audioholics goes through measurement patterns for Dirac, Audyssey and ARC ... and after recently watching some videos with Carl Tatz who designs mixing rooms with his "Phantom Center" method ... I got to thinking that maybe I'd try doing some high and low measurements along with measuring the MLP a little more behind my actual ears. Tatz puts the focal point of his room timing 20" behind the MLP. I wasn't going to go to that extreme and it really doesn't work with multichannel unless you have individual control of each speaker's distance, which we don't with Dirac. So okay I tried to do a multiple exposure to show this new pattern relative to my actual ears... black cap in place so as not to glare off my old bald head View AttachmentI recline the couch all the way when I measure, and pile on a blanket to absorb close reflections from the leather. So you see the MLP measurement is maybe a foot behind where my ears are when I adjust the couch for actual listening. Then I went two high in the rear on either side. Then 8" forward with two low L/R, and the center higher than the MLP was. I'm listening now. A lot of stuff sounds really great and that could be that Dirac 3.11 is doing something new too. The imaging and soundstage is different and in many cases especially Atmos and 5.1 music it really seems to be better. Feels more forward and three dimensional. I feel like some stereo tracks sound different aside from imaging and soundstage. Have to listen some more and give it time. p.s. Easier to imagine taking 7 photos and blending them in Photoshop, than it turned out to be. But I hope you get the idea from this composite. I don't sit in the seat when I measure. How is the center phantom image with stereo material? I have to listen to more things. It has always been good, but it may be a little lower and more forward. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 20, 2024 13:21:40 GMT -5
How is the center phantom image with stereo material? I have to listen to more things. It has always been good, but it may be a little lower and more forward. Looking forward to what to think. I've been using the pattern you discussed previously and imaging has never been better for me with Dirac. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Nov 20, 2024 13:47:33 GMT -5
So okay I tried to do a multiple exposure to show this new pattern relative to my actual ears... black cap in place so as not to glare off my old bald head Where is M. C. Escher when you need him? |
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Post by marcl on Nov 20, 2024 14:42:10 GMT -5
I have to listen to more things. It has always been good, but it may be a little lower and more forward. Looking forward to what to think. I've been using the pattern you discussed previously and imaging has never been better for me with Dirac. Okay I just spent an hour or so listening and it is really good! Dominique Fils-Aime Nameless album ... first track I was startled by a woman singing quietly five feet in front of me! Then each other voice was in its place. And the next track, The Birds, was rock solid with the main vocal in the middle and other sounds distributed evenly. I do have a sense that the center image is lower, more eye level that it was, and that's a good thing. Not Our First Goat Rodeo with Yo Yo Ma, Stuart Duncan, Chris Thiele and Edgar Meyer ... The Trappings ... each voice in its place left-center, center, right center and Edgar's bass anchored right below with no boom, just depth and plenty of "pluck". One of my 5.1 benchmarks, Engegard Quartet Haydn Op. 76 No. 5 recorded by Morten Lindberg of 2L ... the instruments are just wider than stereo with the cello closer than the right speaker and viola closer than the left. Perfect. As I've listened to several familiar tracks past couple days i find myself hearing quiet instruments I haven't noticed before .... a bit of percussion or a guitar. So the two variables here are new measurement pattern and Dirac 3.11. I think both are worth a try. I'd like to hear if anyone else feels a difference. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 20, 2024 17:56:00 GMT -5
Looking forward to what to think. I've been using the pattern you discussed previously and imaging has never been better for me with Dirac. Okay I just spent an hour or so listening and it is really good! Dominique Fils-Aime Nameless album ... first track I was startled by a woman singing quietly five feet in front of me! Then each other voice was in its place. And the next track, The Birds, was rock solid with the main vocal in the middle and other sounds distributed evenly. I do have a sense that the center image is lower, more eye level that it was, and that's a good thing. Not Our First Goat Rodeo with Yo Yo Ma, Stuart Duncan, Chris Thiele and Edgar Meyer ... The Trappings ... each voice in its place left-center, center, right center and Edgar's bass anchored right below with no boom, just depth and plenty of "pluck". One of my 5.1 benchmarks, Engegard Quartet Haydn Op. 76 No. 5 recorded by Morten Lindberg of 2L ... the instruments are just wider than stereo with the cello closer than the right speaker and viola closer than the left. Perfect. As I've listened to several familiar tracks past couple days i find myself hearing quiet instruments I haven't noticed before .... a bit of percussion or a guitar. So the two variables here are new measurement pattern and Dirac 3.11. I think both are worth a try. I'd like to hear if anyone else feels a difference. Sounds promising. My next Dirac run will be with this method. As for 3.11, I had an issue with a UMIK-2 where any "corrected" trace tailed off from the target by 3dB starting around 40Hz. I tried all kinds of things but no matter what I set the target to the corrected traced dropped from that target by 3dB at the low end. I reinstalled 3.10 and it no longer exhibited that behavior. The UMIK-1 wasn't affected. edit: After using the Dirac maintenance tool to uninstall 3.10 I redownloaded and installed 3.11 again and it no longer has the target/corrected trace issue I was seeing. |
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Post by marcl on Nov 21, 2024 10:04:25 GMT -5
I really like Chris' site and articles. I think we're of the same mind fundamentally, though we might express our ideas differently ... and I do not spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on my solutions. But I would love to hear his megabuck 7.1.4 all Wilson system someday! I think this is interesting. Yes, it's long-ish. It makes some critically important and indisputable points. audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/why-dont-you-use-digital-room-correction-a-follow-up-opportunity-r1312/ p.s. don't listen to the audio ... it's not Chris, it's a bot and takes half hour. p.p.s. Chris bends over backward to be diplomatic in this article ... taking meticulous care to avoid what I think is the "elephant in the room" of this topic ... well two elephants: one is that the science of small room acoustics says the elephant IS the room; the other is that the main reason people actually reject DRC is that they personally (at least on this topic) prefer to reject the science in favor of perception. p.x3s. a serendipitous consequence of following Chris' posts was that back in May I responded to an article about the BACCH-SP written by Joe Whip ... who happens to live near me ... and so I invited him to hear my system (which he has yet to) ... but he called me one day and we talked an hour and he invited me to join Philadelphia Area Audio Group! I leapt! And have been to all but one monthly gathering since May and it is absolutely the best experience I could have imagined for my current state of audiophelia in retirement. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Nov 22, 2024 12:44:54 GMT -5
Dirac v3.11.0
In this version the Mic Gain slider is now setup much better than ever before. It now reports Gain in a proper format, from -20dB, to 0.0dB, to +30dB. No longer does it employ a percentage scale morphing into a dB scale, which I know confused many with whom I've communicated.
This new scale had me wondering if Dirac had changed the gain structure utilized in the +dB portion of the scale from being purely digital to analog. The answer from Dirac is No. Any amount of positive gain is digital.
Knowing this is important to guide those of us who have microphones with the USB-C connection port. USB-A mics all operate just fine with Dirac, but USB-C mics can be misrepresented by Dirac as having no gain.
A UMIK-1 mic with a USB-C connection port will need to use the digital mic gain in Dirac for those systems that experience Low Signal To Noise errors often.
But the UMIK-2 mic has an app called miniDSP-MIK that is specifically for changing the mic gain - and this is really important - using ANALOG GAIN, not digital. Setting the gain at 32dB is the magic number to make Dirac measure as if it's a 18dB gain microphone, which it is but Dirac doesn't see it that way.
This version of Dirac is an improvement, not a fix. There's still an issue with USB-C mics not being recognized as having the gain setting they do. I believe the issue is a design flaw by miniDSP because it's not just Dirac that doesn't see the mic correctly, it's also operating systems. But miniDSP says it's Dirac's fault, and Dirac says go talk to miniDSP. I've talked to both companies multiple times and got nowhere. So I now use a Earthworks mics and really good audio interfaces and am extremely happy!
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Post by geebo on Nov 22, 2024 13:00:26 GMT -5
Dirac v3.11.0 In this version the Mic Gain slider is now setup much better than ever before. It now reports Gain in a proper format, from -20dB, to 0.0dB, to +30dB. No longer does it employ a percentage scale morphing into a dB scale, which I know confused many with whom I've communicated. This new scale had me wondering if Dirac had changed the gain structure utilized in the +dB portion of the scale from being purely digital to analog. The answer from Dirac is No. Any amount of positive gain is digital. Knowing this is important to guide those of us who have microphones with the USB-C connection port. USB-A mics all operate just fine with Dirac, but USB-C mics can be misrepresented by Dirac as having no gain. A UMIK-1 mic with a USB-C connection port will need to use the digital mic gain in Dirac for those systems that experience Low Signal To Noise errors often. But the UMIK-2 mic has an app called miniDSP-MIK that is specifically for changing the mic gain - and this is really important - using ANALOG GAIN, not digital. Setting the gain at 32dB is the magic number to make Dirac measure as if it's a 18dB gain microphone, which it is but Dirac doesn't see it that way. This version of Dirac is an improvement, not a fix. There's still an issue with USB-C mics not being recognized as having the gain setting they do. I believe the issue is a design flaw by miniDSP because it's not just Dirac that doesn't see the mic correctly, it's also operating systems. But miniDSP says it's Dirac's fault, and Dirac says go talk to miniDSP. I've talked to both companies multiple times and got nowhere. So I now use a Earthworks mics and really good audio interfaces and am extremely happy! +1 I just got a UMIK-2 and noticed the levels were really low in Dirac. At the suggestion of ttocs I got the gain adjustment app from miniDSP (you have to request it through miniDSP support) and set the gain to 32. The levels in Dirac are now very similar to those of the UMIK-1 and the end result with Dirac has been very good. |
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Post by merlinwerks on Nov 23, 2024 18:22:26 GMT -5
So the only recourse for those of us with a Umik-1/USBc and 3.11 is to use digital mic gain? I just updated Dirac to 3.11 from a somewhat older version and my levels are in the mud. It was fine with the older version. I can restore to the older version though.
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Post by geebo on Nov 23, 2024 19:54:46 GMT -5
So the only recourse for those of us with a Umik-1/USBc and 3.11 is to use digital mic gain? I just updated Dirac to 3.11 from a somewhat older version and my levels are in the mud. It was fine with the older version. I can restore to the older version though. You could always take the UMIK-1 apart and change the internal gain with the dip switches inside. |
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Post by merlinwerks on Nov 23, 2024 20:04:32 GMT -5
Thanks will probably end up doing that.
FWIW, I installed 3.10 and gains/levels are back to where they were previously.
Do we have enough experience with 3.11 to know if it offers any significant improvements over 3.10?
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lgjr
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Post by lgjr on Nov 24, 2024 6:34:01 GMT -5
I got an email from Minidsp saying the app would now be available on the downloads page. I don't see it. Unless it's under a different name.
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Post by geebo on Nov 24, 2024 10:33:08 GMT -5
I got an email from Minidsp saying the app would now be available on the downloads page. I don't see it. Unless it's under a different name. It should be in the User Downloads section. Login and go to: Support > User Downloads > UMIK Series / AmbiMIK Series > UMIK-2 then scroll to the bottom. |
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Post by klinemj on Nov 24, 2024 15:23:08 GMT -5
Dirac v3.11.0 In this version the Mic Gain slider is now setup much better than ever before. It now reports Gain in a proper format, from -20dB, to 0.0dB, to +30dB. No longer does it employ a percentage scale morphing into a dB scale, which I know confused many with whom I've communicated. This new scale had me wondering if Dirac had changed the gain structure utilized in the +dB portion of the scale from being purely digital to analog. The answer from Dirac is No. Any amount of positive gain is digital. Knowing this is important to guide those of us who have microphones with the USB-C connection port. USB-A mics all operate just fine with Dirac, but USB-C mics can be misrepresented by Dirac as having no gain. A UMIK-1 mic with a USB-C connection port will need to use the digital mic gain in Dirac for those systems that experience Low Signal To Noise errors often. But the UMIK-2 mic has an app called miniDSP-MIK that is specifically for changing the mic gain - and this is really important - using ANALOG GAIN, not digital. Setting the gain at 32dB is the magic number to make Dirac measure as if it's a 18dB gain microphone, which it is but Dirac doesn't see it that way. This version of Dirac is an improvement, not a fix. There's still an issue with USB-C mics not being recognized as having the gain setting they do. I believe the issue is a design flaw by miniDSP because it's not just Dirac that doesn't see the mic correctly, it's also operating systems. But miniDSP says it's Dirac's fault, and Dirac says go talk to miniDSP. I've talked to both companies multiple times and got nowhere. So I now use a Earthworks mics and really good audio interfaces and am extremely happy! +1 I just got a UMIK-2 and noticed the levels were really low in Dirac. At the suggestion of ttocs I got the gain adjustment app from miniDSP (you have to request it through miniDSP support) and set the gain to 32. The levels in Dirac are now very similar to those of the UMIK-1 and the end result with Dirac has been very good. I'm trying to catch up with this, and - do I have this right? With Dirac 3.11.0 - the UMIK-1 doesn't work right? It's either buy a UMIK-2 or use a miniDSP (which I don't have). Sorry that I'm late to the party, but after reading some folks having issues with 3.11.0 I checked out for a while. Thanks, Mark |
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Post by geebo on Nov 24, 2024 15:31:33 GMT -5
+1 I just got a UMIK-2 and noticed the levels were really low in Dirac. At the suggestion of ttocs I got the gain adjustment app from miniDSP (you have to request it through miniDSP support) and set the gain to 32. The levels in Dirac are now very similar to those of the UMIK-1 and the end result with Dirac has been very good. I'm trying to catch up with this, and - do I have this right? With Dirac 3.11.0 - the UMIK-1 doesn't work right? It's either buy a UMIK-2 or use a miniDSP (which I don't have). Sorry that I'm late to the party, but after reading some folks having issues with 3.11.0 I checked out for a while. Thanks, Mark If your UMIK-1 is the older version with a mini USB-A connector at the mic you'll be fine. If you have the newer UMIK-1 with the USB-C connector at the mic you might have issues. But it should be possible to adjust the gain using the internal dip switches in the UMIK-1. Of course, you could just continue with Dirac 3.10 |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Nov 24, 2024 17:35:51 GMT -5
+1 I just got a UMIK-2 and noticed the levels were really low in Dirac. At the suggestion of ttocs I got the gain adjustment app from miniDSP (you have to request it through miniDSP support) and set the gain to 32. The levels in Dirac are now very similar to those of the UMIK-1 and the end result with Dirac has been very good. I'm trying to catch up with this, and - do I have this right? With Dirac 3.11.0 - the UMIK-1 doesn't work right? It's either buy a UMIK-2 or use a miniDSP (which I don't have). Sorry that I'm late to the party, but after reading some folks having issues with 3.11.0 I checked out for a while. Thanks, Mark It's just with the USBC mics, UMIK-1 and UMIK-2, that have a USBC connection port on the mic. The older UMIK-1 mics that came with a USBA cable are fine. Dirac version doesn't matter. This issue has been around since the UMIK mics have been supplied with USBC connections. With some systems the adjustments in Volume Calibration in Dirac can be dealt with and made to work, but with the speakers sounding the sweeps at a much higher SPL. |
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Post by PAC on Nov 24, 2024 20:09:21 GMT -5
I have a UMIK-1 that I purchased in Dec. 2022. It is a USB-C mic. I used the mic many times a year ago and this past summer with REW and DIRAC. I seem to have gotten good results. This past week, I did multiple (4 or 5) 6 or 7 position DIRAC calibrations with 3.11.0. I remodeled a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 cabs this summer using non-original drivers and crossovers I made myself and wanted to run DIRAC. I seem to remember that a year ago the speaker levels in DIRAC were much higher than this week, but ttocs says that it doesn't matter what version of DIRAC is used, the UMIK USB-C mics are lower. I trust his memory much more than mine at this time. The different speakers may have confused my memory also. Anyway, this past week I set (left) the mic gain at 0db which is the old 100%, and set the Master output to -22dB or -23dB. Going through the speaker levels I ended up with all the speakers (except sub) around -37.5 dB. Sub was -30.5dB. The speaker volumes did not seem any louder than past calibrations. I went through all the speaker interrogations without any problems, clipping, low level or error codes. REW showed pretty good curves after a third try and setting curtains and points on a 6 mic position calibration. I did a couple more to see if it would reproduce. The 6 point and a 7 point mic position runs turned out about the same. Here is the REW of the left front, right front and L&R together. This is a "flat" curve similar to what marcl has mentioned in this thread. The surrounds were similar. Music sounds good and the imaging is very good. (My RMC-1L volume is set at -26 when checking with REW using an Emotiva XPA-11 amp).  So, my question is, (and others may have the same question) after reading this thread recently, will I get "better" results in DIRAC by increasing my mic sensitivity even though I don't get any errors running DIRAC calibrations and get adequate/good results in REW? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Nov 24, 2024 20:27:25 GMT -5
I have a UMIK-1 that I purchased in Dec. 2022. It is a USB-C mic. I used the mic many times a year ago and this past summer with REW and DIRAC. I seem to have gotten good results. This past week, I did multiple (4 or 5) 6 or 7 position DIRAC calibrations with 3.11.0. I remodeled a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 cabs this summer using non-original drivers and crossovers I made myself and wanted to run DIRAC. I seem to remember that a year ago the speaker levels in DIRAC were much higher than this week, but ttocs says that it doesn't matter what version of DIRAC is used, the UMIK USB-C mics are lower. I trust his memory much more than mine at this time. The different speakers may have confused my memory also. Anyway, this past week I set (left) the mic gain at 0db which is the old 100%, and set the Master output to -22dB or -23dB. Going through the speaker levels I ended up with all the speakers (except sub) around -37.5 dB. Sub was -30.5dB. The speaker volumes did not seem any louder than past calibrations. I went through all the speaker interrogations without any problems, clipping, low level or error codes. REW showed pretty good curves after a third try and setting curtains and points on a 6 mic position calibration. I did a couple more to see if it would reproduce. The 6 point and a 7 point mic position runs turned out about the same. Here is the REW of the left front, right front and L&R together. This is a "flat" curve similar to what marcl has mentioned in this thread. The surrounds were similar. Music sounds good and the imaging is very good. (My RMC-1L volume is set at -26 when checking with REW using an Emotiva XPA-11 amp). View Attachment So, my question is, (and others may have the same question) after reading this thread recently, will I get "better" results in DIRAC by increasing my mic sensitivity even though I don't get any errors running DIRAC calibrations and get adequate/good results in REW? If it's working well for your system, then keep doing what you're doing! The Mic Gain slider in Dirac is a digital adjustment. So when going higher than 0.0dB it's digital gain. I avoid using digital gain the same as I avoid using digital zoom on a camera. It's not the same as using analog gain. Here's the caveat in this issue. I distinctly recall that Microsoft supplied a patch that helped with this issue with UMIK mics with USBC connections on them. I don't remember what the patch was called because I use a Mac almost all the time. I do have a WinOS install on one of my computers and this computer exhibits the same behavior as my Macs. But, this patch was supposed to help Windows users with this issue, and I recall some saying they had success. This was early to mid 2023. I can't find anything about this patch now when I search. The issue is specifically that my UMIK-1 and UMIK-2 mics with USBC connections on them are -14dB less sensitive than the USBA (mini USB) connected mics with the same 18dB gain settings. If one were to use an affected mic with ONLY with Dirac, then I would recommend to change the internal gain setting in the UMIK-1 mics and be happy forever. But since REW and other apps don't have a problem like this and will recognize the USBC UMIK mic as having the 18dB gain setting that the mic is set for, then this is why I don't recommend changing the gain just for Dirac with the internal DIP switches. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Nov 24, 2024 20:44:26 GMT -5
Re the UMIK mics with USBC connections:
Some systems may not "seem" to have a problem because the volume level of the sweeps in Dirac doesn't alarm those users, even though it's loud.
The fact is that my mics that connect to a USBA connection on the computer have a certain level of input to Dirac when the sweeps are playing during Measurement. To get the same SPL level when using a USBC mic, I have to increase the Volume Calibration levels by +14dB. Both of my USBC mics, a UMIK-1 and a UMIK-2, need the same amount of increased gain to make the sweeps play at the same level as when using either of my UMIK-1 mics that have the miniUSB on the mic and a USBA connector on the computer end of the cable.
Yes, I was able to make a sloppy adjustment in Dirac using the digital gain to compensate as Dirac Support instructed me to do. But this shouldn't be the suggested workaround when it's clearly not in keeping with do no harm to the signal.
I'm telling everyone this to let everyone know WHAT is going on. I've moved on to a much better mic so this doesn't affect me at all anymore. But when I can help with what I know, I do.
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