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Post by thezone on Jul 13, 2020 19:15:49 GMT -5
Do we have to pay extra for Dirac now? Or was it included in the trade-in price?
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Post by thezone on Jul 13, 2020 19:21:14 GMT -5
I feel like we should start an entire bass management thread as this part of the XMC-2/RMC-1 has become more complex compared to my old XMC-1 and I have a few questions myself in this area.
I have my all my speakers (large and small) set to 'small' and a single mono sub output from the XMC-2 going to a 4 way active x-over feeding 4 subs as I firmly believe that no two speakers should be repeating the same frequencies. For the most part this results in extremely tight and controlled bass especially for music but since I recently acquired the XMC-2 with its 3 sub outputs I have been wondering if there's a different way I can do this. Eg hooking up one sub for purely just LFE and the other 3 via the left output to a 3way x-over for bass management only duties.
I just have one question though, when you are using dolby surround to process 2ch to say 5.1 how does the upmixer decide what low frequencies (say under 120hz) goes into the main speakers and what goes to LFE?
EDIT: I can answer this question now. Nothing. Nada. When using upmixer from 2ch to 5.1ch bass management only redirects bass (under your set speaker xover point) to the subs set to mono nothing goes to the LFE sub output at all.
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Post by geebo on Jul 13, 2020 19:36:59 GMT -5
Do we have to pay extra for Dirac now? Or was it included in the trade-in price? The full current version of Dirac is included with the XMC-2 and RMC processors even with the trade in deal. |
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Post by Superhelmi on Jul 13, 2020 23:59:44 GMT -5
Do we have to pay extra for Dirac now? Or was it included in the trade-in price? The full current version of Dirac is included with the XMC-2 and RMC processors even with the trade in deal. Sorry I don`t think so ! You have to purchase and download the Dirac Full 3.xx PC program from the Dirac webpage. There are two different parts, one is the PC program and one is the software/firmware in the Emotiva processor. Of course the firmware version with dirac inside is free. It should be the same as with the XMC-1 and dirac 1. Dirac costs 99 $ Markus |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 14, 2020 0:10:35 GMT -5
The full current version of Dirac is included with the XMC-2 and RMC processors even with the trade in deal. Sorry I don`t think so ! You have to purchase and download the Dirac Full 3.xx PC program from the Dirac webpage. There are two different parts, one is the PC program and one is the software/firmware in the Emotiva processor. Of course the firmware version with dirac inside is free. It should be the same as with the XMC-1 and dirac 1. Dirac costs 99 $ Markus is correct, Dirac Live is included in the cost of the processor, see the FAQ in the 3rd post of this thread. |
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Post by markc on Jul 14, 2020 6:21:07 GMT -5
Hopefully you didn’t pay $99. No because it isn`t available for Emotiva yet. But because it`s mostly the same piece of software for every manufacturer and you have to download it from dirac... I can`t belief it`s for free! It isn't "free" to use. The price of the software licence is included in the Emotiva XMC-2 / RMC-1(L) purchase. You can download and install and run the software now if you like. No licence is needed to do this. However, you can't get very far as the software wont detect a compatible and licenced DIRAC enabled Processor on your home network (Unless you have an ARCAM, AudioControl, JBL, JBL Synthesis, Lexicon, miniDSP, NAD, StormAudio, Focal, Bryston and Monoprice etc) When Emotiva gives us a Dirac enabled firmware that enables the switching of the SSP into Dirac mode and our personal licence key, the Dirac Live software (Currently version 3.0.2) will be able to connect and test for your licenced Processor. The only additional cost will be if the Emotiva's ever become compatible with the optional bolt-ons for Dirac Live Bass Control and you wish to take advantage of those and buy the separate licence extension. $349 for single sub, $499 for multi sub (I expect it will soon be announced on these forums by Emotiva that the XMC-2 and RMC-1(L) will get DLBC compatibility "soon"  ) |
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Post by marcl on Jul 14, 2020 7:30:43 GMT -5
I feel like we should start an entire bass management thread as this part of the XMC-2/RMC-1 has become more complex compared to my old XMC-1 and I have a few questions myself in this area. I have my all my speakers (large and small) set to 'small' and a single mono sub output from the XMC-2 going to a 4 way active x-over feeding 4 subs as I firmly believe that no two speakers should be repeating the same frequencies. For the most part this results in extremely tight and controlled bass especially for music but since I recently acquired the XMC-2 with its 3 sub outputs I have been wondering if there's a different way I can do this. Eg hooking up one sub for purely just LFE and the other 3 via the left output to a 3way x-over for bass management only duties. I just have one question though, when you are using dolby surround to process 2ch to say 5.1 how does the upmixer decide what low frequencies (say under 120hz) goes into the main speakers and what goes to LFE? EDIT: I can answer this question now. Nothing. Nada. When using upmixer from 2ch to 5.1ch bass management only redirects bass (under your set speaker xover point) to the subs set to mono nothing goes to the LFE sub output at all. I went down a similar road with XMC-1 ... all speakers set to small and one of the sub outputs connected to miniDSP. I was using two subs and one Magnepan DWM and running the subs below 50Hz and DWM 50-200. XMC-1 has the Enhanced Bass feature which I briefly tried with the front L/R, but its implementation mixed LFE back to the mains and that was very bad for Maggies that didn't like being pounded with thunder and explosions below 30Hz. I just implemented the configuration in the attached diagram. Many things in there exactly to your points. Center sub plays only LFE through the niniDSP to two subs. The XMC-2 rolls off LFE at 100Hz, 12db/octave. I split the Left sub output which now plays bass management only, with one side driving two DWMs and the other sending <50Hz to the subs. I now use the Enhanced Bass option for the mains because it's "fixed" and no longer send LFE to the Large speakers. I send <130Hz from the mains to the subs/DWMs and also run the mains Large. And then the question of the upmixer, and in particular for me the question of what happens with multichannel music. What I decided was to make Preset1 for video content including Center and Left sub outputs with video sources configured to use Preset1. Preset2 has only the Left sub output and music sources configured for Preset2. The result is for multichannel music the .1 channel plays the sub/DWM output and not the LFE output. I'm using PEQ in the XMC-2 for all channels. Center sub output EQs the sum of the two subs as seen from the LFE perspective. Left sub output EQs the sum of two subs and two DWMs as seen from the bass management perspective. Note that to properly measure bass management and create filters in REW, you have to measure bass management from a channel other than LFE because XMC-2 rolls off the LFE. I measure bass management from the Left Front channel with crossover set to 200Hz and main amplifier turned off. That's the plot you see in the attached diagram. When Dirac comes I'll start with this same configuration and let Dirac see the two sub outputs as they are. I expect this will work best. But since Dirac will never see bass management running with the speakers I expect I may need to measure with REW and tweak Dirac curves manually ... especially with the mains running with Enhanced Bass. Edit: Just saw your edit. That makes sense. My concern was with 5.1 music sending .1 to the LFE sub output which I think (will verify) it does. Hence my use of the two presets. But good to see the upmix from 2 channel sends only to bass management. Even when watching video with 2 channel sound this should be fine since there isn't actual dynamic LFE-ish sound in 2 channel video. p.s. For reasons explained by Toole, Welti, Olive and others I never saw the reason for "stereo subs". Their research demonstrates the best positions for multiple subs. But .... since in my case bass management has to play up to 100-200Hz for my center and surrounds, I would use the stereo sub option if we now had it so that my DWMs would get left and right bass above 100Hz. They are placed symmetrically near the mains against the side walls. Attachments:
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Post by 5channels on Jul 15, 2020 14:52:42 GMT -5
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Post by marcl on Jul 15, 2020 15:41:50 GMT -5
Cool! If I have trouble sleeping I can put it on loop :-) Seriously .... cool to have these videos coming along! The basics are important. I do think that rather than watching the measurements several times it would be useful to talk about the following: - More detail on setting the input level ... is the target -30db? I think it was -24db in Dirac 1.0 - How to decide on the measurement pattern, and how to space each measurement from the others - How to use the "curtains" - How to add and delete control points to customize the target curve - Are there recommendations or limitations on the steepness or amplitude of curves and adjustments? Limitations on flattening nulls in the response? - Emphasize that when the filters are created, you are only seeing a predicted - not actual - resulting response |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 16, 2020 10:33:53 GMT -5
Some good news, which could mean, the release is close. The Beta team has been given the go ahead to comment on their experiences during the Dirac beta test, which includes: the EDNIB Kit, the 2.x Firmware, a calibrated mic, and Dirac Live 3.x — including the setup, measurement process, and other steps leading to the installation of filters on the G3P, and of course how it sounds. Here’s a rundown of my experience, but you should read the manuals and watch the videos to get a more complete idea of the process. I’m sure other team members will have their comments as well. I received the kit and after looking it over, plugged the EDNIB in and attached it to a free port on an 8 port gig switch I use for my home theatre gear (I didn’t try the included switch). I then installed the 2.x beta firmware — you will be unable to run Dirac Live without FW2.x — I had already installed the Dirac Live 3.0.0 software on my 2013 MacBook Pro with Catalina. During my testing I used both the Emotiva USB mic and a UMIK-1 USB mic mounted on a boom stand. To get a good measurement with DL you should choose a time where your environment is as quiet as possible, if there’s too much background noise you’ll have difficulty completing the process, you also need to take your time setting all of your speaker and mic levels. My first few measurements seemed to be ok, but the DL software abended (crashed), I opened a ticket with Dirac and it was determined my measurements had too much noise, but the software didn’t catch and flag the issue before trying to process it and eventually crash, I believe that was addressed in the current DL version 3.0.2. The measurement process takes over an hour depending on which setup you choose, try to have enough time to finish the process without being rushed. After taking measurements you continue to the ‘Target Curve’ screen. I’ll leave it to others to describe all you can do here, but this is where you can choose either the standard Dirac ‘House Curve’, or an optional target curve you might download, or create yourself. Several on the team tried and liked the ‘Harmon Curves’, I’ve linked them in the second post, and suggest where you might keep them below. Once you’ve chosen your target curve, the filters are created (you should think about the filter naming process, I’m sure there will be more suggestions). The filters are then uploaded to the slot you choose. Rather than try to describe everything and repeat the tutorials, I’ve done an outline, much more to follow, including the sound. I’ll edit this post as needed (I’d suggest not quoting the whole thing, this thread could get unwieldy vey quickly). Remember to check the 2nd and 3rd posts for links, acronyms, and FAQs. Things to have in place to take a Dirac measurement and upload filters. * Before you start * Read the Dirac guides and quick starts (links in 2nd Post) * Watch the setup and measurement videos (links in 2nd Post) * Have your G3P registered with Dirac (links in 2nd Post) * The G3P * Powered up * Hooked to the network * Firmware 2.x installed * Speakers configured correctly for location, size and crossover * Not necessary to set level and distance for Dirac ( it’s recommended to set levels to 0) * Level and distance only used in user slot (rememberers if set after Dirac) * Placed in Dirac mode * Menu > Setup > Speakers > Preset > Dirac Live X * The G3P is locked while in Dirac Live mode, it can’t be used until you finish * All amp channels powered up * The EDNIB * Powered up * Hooked to the network * The Laptop / Computer * Powered up * Hooked to the network * Dirac 3.x installed * Emotiva EMM-1 or other calibrated mic hooked to USB * Boom stand recommended * Cable extension if necessary * Mic clip to allow mic pointed up * Mic calibration file in a known location * Additional target curves in a known location (optional) * File structure and potential additions (macOS, Windows similar with \) * /HomeDirectory
* /Dirac
* /logs (system and crash logs)
* /projects (manually save projects here)
* /autosave (projects automatically saved here)
* /calibration (optional, create to store mic calibration files)
* /targets (optional, create to store additional target curves)* The room and environment * Setup as it is normally furnished and appointed * A place for you to sit where you won’t interfere with the measurements * Family and pets out of the room or house * Quiet * HVAC off * Washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc off * Quiet hours for your home or neighborhood * Enough time to complete setup and measurements (One to two hours) * Earplugs (optional) Additions: Here’s the new Menu setting you get with firmware 2.X, the G3P must have Dirac Live mode enabled in order to run Dirac Live on the Laptop.  |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 16, 2020 10:47:55 GMT -5
The full current version of Dirac is included with the XMC-2 and RMC processors even with the trade in deal. Sorry I don`t think so ! You have to purchase and download the Dirac Full 3.xx PC program from the Dirac webpage. There are two different parts, one is the PC program and one is the software/firmware in the Emotiva processor. Of course the firmware version with dirac inside is free. It should be the same as with the XMC-1 and dirac 1. Dirac costs 99 $ Markus That is for the older XMC-1. All current generation processors will run full Dirac Live 3. Lonnie |
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Post by tngiloy on Jul 16, 2020 11:49:50 GMT -5
Dirac beta test, which includes: the EDNIB Kit, the 2.x Firmware, a calibrated mic, and Dirac Live 3.x
So: Does the 2.0 firmware come with the kit on a thumbdrive from Emotiva? It is not on their website. Is the mic trulely, individually calibrated like my UMIK-1 from CSS? Or is it a 'generic' calibration like the worthless file I got with my XMC-1/Dirac 1.x ?? Is their any advantage to download (or can I download) DL 3.0 prior to receiving my kit? Thanks |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 16, 2020 11:53:47 GMT -5
Dirac beta test, which includes: the EDNIB Kit, the 2.x Firmware, a calibrated mic, and Dirac Live 3.x
So: Does the 2.0 firmware come with the kit on a thumbdrive from Emotiva? It is not on their website. Is the mic trulely, individually calibrated like my UMIK-1 from CSS? Or is it a 'generic' calibration like the worthless file I got with my XMC-1/Dirac 1.x ?? Is their any advantage to download (or can I download) DL 3.0 prior to receiving my kit? Thanks No, you will download the firmware when it’s officially released. No, the Emo mics are ‘group calibrated’, the file still improves the accuracy. You can download DL anytime, though you can’t do anything without the firmware, so probably best to wait. |
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Post by Hair Nick on Jul 16, 2020 12:03:59 GMT -5
This thread is now officially official  |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jul 16, 2020 12:09:00 GMT -5
Cool! If I have trouble sleeping I can put it on loop :-) Seriously .... cool to have these videos coming along! The basics are important. I do think that rather than watching the measurements several times it would be useful to talk about the following: - More detail on setting the input level ... is the target -30db? I think it was -24db in Dirac 1.0 - How to decide on the measurement pattern, and how to space each measurement from the others - How to use the "curtains" - How to add and delete control points to customize the target curve - Are there recommendations or limitations on the steepness or amplitude of curves and adjustments? Limitations on flattening nulls in the response? - Emphasize that when the filters are created, you are only seeing a predicted - not actual - resulting response The curtain was important for me. I limited the upper end equal to when the treble started to dip. That removed some “artificial” sounding high frequency response. Also used the Harmon 10 dB target curve on the 17 point measurement for general home theater watching and Harmon 4dB Target curve on 9 point measurement for music listening. Much of your questions are trial and error. Give it a try and see what works best. Outside of what I mentioned I don’t get all geeky on this stuff. Once it sounds good, it’s time to enjoy the music and watch movies. |
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Post by creimes on Jul 16, 2020 12:34:15 GMT -5
Cool! If I have trouble sleeping I can put it on loop :-) Seriously .... cool to have these videos coming along! The basics are important. I do think that rather than watching the measurements several times it would be useful to talk about the following: - More detail on setting the input level ... is the target -30db? I think it was -24db in Dirac 1.0 - How to decide on the measurement pattern, and how to space each measurement from the others - How to use the "curtains" - How to add and delete control points to customize the target curve - Are there recommendations or limitations on the steepness or amplitude of curves and adjustments? Limitations on flattening nulls in the response? - Emphasize that when the filters are created, you are only seeing a predicted - not actual - resulting response The curtain was important for me. I limited the upper end equal to when the treble started to dip. That removed some “artificial” sounding high frequency response. Also used the Harmon 10 dB target curve on the 17 point measurement for general home theater watching and Harmon 4dB Target curve on 9 point measurement for music listening. Much of your questions are trial and error. Give it a try and see what works best. Outside of what I mentioned I don’t get all geeky on this stuff. Once it sounds good, it’s time to enjoy the music and watch movies. I'm stoopid with this but what is a Harmon DB curve and how do you apply it in Dirac lol |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 16, 2020 12:34:42 GMT -5
Cool! If I have trouble sleeping I can put it on loop :-) Seriously .... cool to have these videos coming along! The basics are important. I do think that rather than watching the measurements several times it would be useful to talk about the following: - More detail on setting the input level ... is the target -30db? I think it was -24db in Dirac 1.0 - How to decide on the measurement pattern, and how to space each measurement from the others - How to use the "curtains" - How to add and delete control points to customize the target curve - Are there recommendations or limitations on the steepness or amplitude of curves and adjustments? Limitations on flattening nulls in the response? - Emphasize that when the filters are created, you are only seeing a predicted - not actual - resulting response I’ll echo Lsc’s comments regarding trial and error, but would also say that though some of us have a head start, the collective ‘we’ will be learning much of this together (and you are already in the front row). I’ll also say that along with the Emo and Dirac setup guides and videos, I liked the Mehau links I provided, he had some good processes for setting mic and speaker levels that were helpful when the ‘one size fits all’ approach didn’t work. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 16, 2020 12:36:21 GMT -5
The curtain was important for me. I limited the upper end equal to when the treble started to dip. That removed some “artificial” sounding high frequency response. Also used the Harmon 10 dB target curve on the 17 point measurement for general home theater watching and Harmon 4dB Target curve on 9 point measurement for music listening. Much of your questions are trial and error. Give it a try and see what works best. Outside of what I mentioned I don’t get all geeky on this stuff. Once it sounds good, it’s time to enjoy the music and watch movies. I'm stoopid with this but what is a Harmon DB curve and how do you apply it in Dirac lol Harmon curves are ‘Target curves’, essentially what you want your response to look like after Dirac is through. These are alternates to the generic house curve that Dirac supplies, I link them in the 2nd post. I also suggest where to keep them in my ‘beta’ post above. |
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Post by creimes on Jul 16, 2020 12:41:05 GMT -5
I'm stoopid with this but what is a Harmon DB curve and how do you apply it in Dirac lol Harmon curves are ‘Target curves’, essentially what you want your response to look like after Dirac is through. These are alternates to the generic house curve that Dirac supplies, I link them in the 2nd post. I also suggest where to keep them in my ‘beta’ post above. So you do this by dragging the curve like in Dirac Full ? to where it would match these Harman Curves, this whole new Dirac is going to be an experiment, my issue of always running it for my XMC-1 was trying to get a quiet household, with a 5 year old and 9 year old this is far and between from happening haha. Edit: I see now the links to the curves, so whats the point in running Dirac if you can just load a curve and upload it to the processor ? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 16, 2020 12:50:21 GMT -5
Harmon curves are ‘Target curves’, essentially what you want your response to look like after Dirac is through. These are alternates to the generic house curve that Dirac supplies, I link them in the 2nd post. I also suggest where to keep them in my ‘beta’ post above. So you do this by dragging the curve like in Dirac Full ? to where it would match these Harman Curves, this whole new Dirac is going to be an experiment, my issue of always running it for my XMC-1 was trying to get a quiet household, with a 5 year old and 9 year old this is far and between from happening haha. No, you download the curve and save it (see my file structure above for a suggestion), you are given an option to 'load' alternate curves, like the Harmon curves, probably best to start with the House curve, and load a slot with that, then go back to your existing measurement and try one of the Harmon curves for another slot. There are also tutorials on creating your own target curves (I might have linked one), but deeper than I'm ready for. I see your edit: Curves are not Filters, curves create filters, filters are what's uploaded to your G3P. |
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