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Post by hsamwel on Jan 11, 2021 11:52:36 GMT -5
No matter how much I moved my head either to left or right, I can't get it to center. It just sounds diffused from everywhere. I also tried leaning my seats back, so that back rest wouldn't get in the way. Still off-center, diffused. This applies all measurements I took, 9 points, 13 points, 1 point, none of them sounds right. Can this be faulty XMC-2, raspberry pi, or the microphone? Without Dirac, imaging is DEAD-CENTER, just the way it supposed to be. Bass sounds a bit bloated, but Dirac fixed that in the past. I also tried, install Dirac Live to HTPC as that computer is hardwired vs wifi on the laptop. All equipment are connected via hardwired to Gigabit network, including the computer that's doing the measurement. (Dirac v. 3.0.11). I also tried v. 3.0.13, no luck there either. I attached a picture of front stage, so you can get an idea where my front channels are. Yes, speakers are about a foot away from the wall, hence the placement of sound absorbers at the first reflection point. Again I would like to stress this wasn't an issue with the XMC-1. As someone suggested turning off XMC-2 wait a minute, and turning it back on. Yes, I also tried hard resetting the unit, no changes. I do appreciate everyone chiming in. Since I don't know how the EDNIB does its translation to the processor I can't rule out that it is malfunctioning, but I would doubt it is the problem. Likewise, I doubt the mic is the issue, except as it relates to the frequency response curve. I've got a CSL UMIK-1, an OEM miniDSP UMIK-1, as well as the EMM-1, and there's a little difference between the UMIKs but not a lot, and the EMM-1 has a different curve at the extremes but less than the spec of any speaker's frequency response tolerance. The bass ends up being more pronounced with the EMM-1, so I prefer either of the UMIKs. marcl had a problem with Dirac 3 seeing a reflection that it was sensitive to, and he tracked it to a second reflection I believe, and his room was already very well treated with everything imaginable. My reflection issue I had when starting to use the XMC-2 and Dirac 3 was from the rear wave from my dipole speakers. I added some panels and that solved the issue. Dipole speakers?! Can Dirac even measure dipole speakers correctly? For modern multi channel recordings, beyond legacy DD/DTS 5.1, it is recommended to use direct-radiating speakers. Regarding mics, alot have had issues with EMM-1 that have been fixed with the switching to a UMIK mic. Strange bass readings and early drop in the treble often before 10khz.
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Post by dhiru79 on Jan 11, 2021 12:37:27 GMT -5
Hello everyone. If I use LFE is better to set front mains Large or Small. I have 3 Subwoofers
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Post by ttocs on Jan 11, 2021 13:36:08 GMT -5
Hello everyone. If I use LFE is better to set front mains Large or Small. I have 3 Subwoofers If you set the Center Sub for LFE, then no other bass will be sent to the Center Sub output. It will only produce the .1 Low Frequency Effects sound. Since you have 3 subs, you have choices in how they're used. If you want one for LFE, then use the Center Sub output for LFE, then use the other two on the Left and Right Sub outputs and set those up for Dual Mono so they will produce the bass sent to them by Bass Management. How you proceed will largely depend on what you want those subwoofers to do. If it were me, I'd do what I recommended above. More subs doing the same thing in multiple locations will more often perform better. So if you want better performance in the Bass Managed channels, use two subs for that. If you care more about getting better performance for LFE, then use two subs for that. There's a lot of opinions as to what constitutes a "Large" speaker. Mine play lower than 20Hz and I'm happy to set mine as Large. According to Dolby, a Full Range Loudspeaker should be able to produce 31.5Hz at the low end, so anything that cannot do that should use a subwoofer to extend the bass down to at least that spec. IF your Fronts are truly capable of playing low and being happy about doing that, then another option is to set them as Large, use all three subwoofers for Center Sub LFE using a daisy chain connection or splitter, then, Bass Management will send the bass for Small speakers to the Fronts. This is how my system is setup.
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Post by dhiru79 on Jan 11, 2021 15:29:31 GMT -5
I Have KEF R7. Frequency Range (-6dB) 33Hz - 50kHz, Frequency Response (±3dB)48Hz - 28kHz. I suppose will be setting as small.Thanks for the advise.
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Post by dhiru79 on Jan 11, 2021 15:30:11 GMT -5
Hello everyone. If I use LFE is better to set front mains Large or Small. I have 3 Subwoofers If you set the Center Sub for LFE, then no other bass will be sent to the Center Sub output. It will only produce the .1 Low Frequency Effects sound. Since you have 3 subs, you have choices in how they're used. If you want one for LFE, then use the Center Sub output for LFE, then use the other two on the Left and Right Sub outputs and set those up for Dual Mono so they will produce the bass sent to them by Bass Management. How you proceed will largely depend on what you want those subwoofers to do. If it were me, I'd do what I recommended above. More subs doing the same thing in multiple locations will more often perform better. So if you want better performance in the Bass Managed channels, use two subs for that. If you care more about getting better performance for LFE, then use two subs for that. There's a lot of opinions as to what constitutes a "Large" speaker. Mine play lower than 20Hz and I'm happy to set mine as Large. According to Dolby, a Full Range Loudspeaker should be able to produce 31.5Hz at the low end, so anything that cannot do that should use a subwoofer to extend the bass down to at least that spec. IF your Fronts are truly capable of playing low and being happy about doing that, then another option is to set them as Large, use all three subwoofers for Center Sub LFE using a daisy chain connection or splitter, then, Bass Management will send the bass for Small speakers to the Fronts. This is how my system is setup.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 11, 2021 15:48:51 GMT -5
Sorry by center point I meant MLP. By moving your head sideways. How long do you have to move your head to get it to sound dead center? When so many have talked about this I listened to some music somehow felt like the voice was a fraction to the right. Felt like I needed to move my head 2-4” to the left to get the voice centered. Is this about what you feel? My room is about 11’ 10” wide and 22’ 8” long. I have about 7’ 11” between LR and the length to each speaker about 10’ 8”. I calculated this to 43.3˚. Or 21.67˚ to each LR speaker. My left wall is full of windows, a door and a big opening. I use blinds to cover each opening or window. My measurements are converted from centimeters. I should sit a little closer or move my front speakers closer to me to get perfect position. But then I get a too long distace to my surround back speakers which I have on the wall. But calculated that I get 48˚ just by having the distance to my speakers decrease by a foot. Actually this way I would get better angles to my wides as well.. Decisions decisions.. No matter how much I moved my head either to left or right, I can't get it to center. It just sounds diffused from everywhere. I also tried leaning my seats back, so that back rest wouldn't get in the way. Still off-center, diffused. This applies all measurements I took, 9 points, 13 points, 1 point, none of them sounds right. Can this be faulty XMC-2, raspberry pi, or the microphone? Without Dirac, imaging is DEAD-CENTER, just the way it supposed to be. Bass sounds a bit bloated, but Dirac fixed that in the past. I also tried, install Dirac Live to HTPC as that computer is hardwired vs wifi on the laptop. All equipment are connected via hardwired to Gigabit network, including the computer that's doing the measurement. (Dirac v. 3.0.11). I also tried v. 3.0.13, no luck there either. I attached a picture of front stage, so you can get an idea where my front channels are. Yes, speakers are about a foot away from the wall, hence the placement of sound absorbers at the first reflection point. Again I would like to stress this wasn't an issue with the XMC-1. As someone suggested turning off XMC-2 wait a minute, and turning it back on. Yes, I also tried hard resetting the unit, no changes. I do appreciate everyone chiming in. This does sound like something has gone wrong with the calibration. Do you use a UMIK mic or the Emotiva EMM-1? What settings for volume did you set in Dirac? Mic sensitivity and main volume.. Too low volume is not good and can make some issues you have. High volume is better but makes it uncomfortable during calibration. Dirac will tell you when you set volume too high and start to clip. Do you have screenshot of your filter stage in Dirac? Showing both calibrated result and measured! Including the curtains. Do you use Harman or Dirac curve? There’s nothing wrong with you front stage. I don’t know the specs of your front speakers but you could try toe in them slightly towards MLP. Especially when you have them near side walls. This is probably not a hardware thing, it’s either with XMC/EDNIB software or Dirac software. You could try Dirac 3.0.5 or 3.0.9. These versions worked fine for sure.
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ology
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Post by ology on Jan 12, 2021 1:26:32 GMT -5
Good Morning, I posted this last night in the RMC 1l Thread, and was suggested i might get more help here I Really need someone help on Dirac Live. a few weeks ago i got my RMC-1L set it up, ran Dirac, sounded Awesome with these setting: front width None Front Small Center Small Surround Small Rear Small Subs set to Dual Mono, 2 XLR cables to Subs (1 XLR Cable per SVS PB16 Ultra) Subs set to -10, and Sub Output Set to 0 had to get the RMC-1L replaced, Just set it up and Also installed 6 in Ceiling Atmos Speakers, which caused me to hook up both SVS PB 16 Ultras to the Center Sub Output. and it sounds bad, barely any Bass, barely Any LFE, Sound is very Dull, almost like a towel thrown over the speakers. I have tried setting my BP7002s with built in 12" power subs to Large and Small, no difference Set Center Sub to LFE and Also tried Mono, No difference. I raised the Subs to 0, keeping the Sub output at 0, and the bass sounds better nothing like before. the changes i made were: 1-added 6 Atmos Speakers 2-First set up each Sub had there own XLR feeding them from the RMC-1L Vs. Second Set up has 1 XLR going from the RMC-1L to the Right Sub, and 1 XLR going from the Right Sub to the LEFT Sub. I Have just 1 Sub, no Difference, Also tried switching the XLR Cables I have ran Dirac Live 4 Times today with different setting, and no Difference. Thank You in Advance for your Thoughts I have the same issue little base after running Dirac. Also have BP7002.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 12, 2021 9:15:57 GMT -5
Interesting. Is Dirac not compatible with bipolar speakers? I wonder if Dirac is confused by front and rear radiating pattern.
I have a pair of surround speakers (S12) that can be set as bipole, dipole of monopole. It’s set to bipole but maybe I’ll play around with the setting to see if Dirac works better with the monopole setting. Fortunately, it’s my surround backs so it doesn’t do much.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 12, 2021 11:08:43 GMT -5
Interesting. Is Dirac not compatible with bipolar speakers? I wonder if Dirac is confused by front and rear radiating pattern. I have a pair of surround speakers (S12) that can be set as bipole, dipole of monopole. It’s set to bipole but maybe I’ll play around with the setting to see if Dirac works better with the monopole setting. Fortunately, it’s my surround backs so it doesn’t do much. It's not the fact they are dipole, it's just the confusing reflections that cause issues. I already had absorption on the front wall, but the right speaker is in a corner and after I added absorption to the right wall at the corner the problems went away.
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Post by homer23 on Jan 12, 2021 11:59:44 GMT -5
I did had volume issues with the XMC-2. The processor is so buggy I am not even sure if it's doing Dirac right. The Dirac engine was reworked by Emotiva to work on the XMC-2. Poor planning decisions and last minute changes hamper support for the native Dirac code. Now we need Raspberry Pie daggle to make Dirac work; if your processor does not freeze first. Hello Everyone, I was hoping someone can help shed some light here. I have the XMC-2 and have added several Dirac filters over the last couple of weeks. One thing I have come across is the Volume issue when adding the Dirac Calibration file the volume is always way too low. However I came across something interesting if you hard reboot the Unit (Use the power switch on the back) 2 things happen 1. the Unit doesnt fully load the Calibration file...things sound a bit off. 2. if you re-load the Dirac Calibration, it takes, and the volume is much louder. Was curious if anyone else had this issue...Do I perhaps need to do a factory reset? Well, funny you say that. Version 3.13 was what was causing the lock out issues when trying to upload the Filters. I found version 3.09 was slower but was more consistent when it came to uploading a new or existing filter. I spoke with Keith over at Emotiva and he mentioned there will be a new Firmware update here in the next couple of weeks which will resolve a ton of the issues we are seeing today. I will re-upload the Filter again tonight Via the Dirac App since just adding it via the menu may not have done so completely. Also one thing to note it seems the Volume is cut to make up for some initial gains that may be to high via the measurement. Do I have to raise the Volume up a few DB, Yes. However the sound is def much more pleasant to the ear.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 13, 2021 20:32:05 GMT -5
Interesting. Is Dirac not compatible with bipolar speakers? I wonder if Dirac is confused by front and rear radiating pattern. I have a pair of surround speakers (S12) that can be set as bipole, dipole of monopole. It’s set to bipole but maybe I’ll play around with the setting to see if Dirac works better with the monopole setting. Fortunately, it’s my surround backs so it doesn’t do much. Surround backs should always be direct-radiated speaker as per Dolby specs. Even sides should be, although having a really long room bi-poles can make it feel the gaps are closed. Di-poles is not recommended for modern soundtracks anymore. But depending on room even di-poles can sometimes be better (narrow rooms). When you’re sitting close to the sides, maybe less than 4-5 feet.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 13, 2021 21:31:29 GMT -5
Interesting. Is Dirac not compatible with bipolar speakers? I wonder if Dirac is confused by front and rear radiating pattern. I have a pair of surround speakers (S12) that can be set as bipole, dipole of monopole. It’s set to bipole but maybe I’ll play around with the setting to see if Dirac works better with the monopole setting. Fortunately, it’s my surround backs so it doesn’t do much. Surround backs should always be direct-radiated speaker as per Dolby specs. Even sides should be, although having a really long room bi-poles can make it feel the gaps are closed. Di-poles is not recommended for modern soundtracks anymore. But depending on room even di-poles can sometimes be better (narrow rooms). When you’re sitting close to the sides, maybe less than 4-5 feet. My room isn’t too great. 16 x 11 and I have my system setup width-wise bc of my 4 seat theater chairs. So the S12 (surround back) is literally right over my head. I’ll give dipole a try - the bipole works pretty good. And I’m not too serious about surround sound, just want it to sound pretty good. I’m much more critical of 2 channel sound but unfortunately my wife will not allow me to bring my gear to the much larger family room with vaulted ceilings so I’m stuck in my man-cave dungeon (don’t mind too much). 😊
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Post by markc on Jan 14, 2021 2:03:35 GMT -5
Interesting. Is Dirac not compatible with bipolar speakers? I wonder if Dirac is confused by front and rear radiating pattern. I have a pair of surround speakers (S12) that can be set as bipole, dipole of monopole. It’s set to bipole but maybe I’ll play around with the setting to see if Dirac works better with the monopole setting. Fortunately, it’s my surround backs so it doesn’t do much. Surround backs should always be direct-radiated speaker as per Dolby specs. Even sides should be, although having a really long room bi-poles can make it feel the gaps are closed. Di-poles is not recommended for modern soundtracks anymore. But depending on room even di-poles can sometimes be better (narrow rooms). When you’re sitting close to the sides, maybe less than 4-5 feet. I think the problem is that Bipoles and Dipoles direct audio in different directions to create multiple reflections and phase differences reaching your ear (and any measurement mic) at the same time. This may be helpful if your room requires that the surrounds are closer to your ear than desirable, where a direct radiating speaker would be distracting and scream "Listen to me!", however don't try to correct this with Dirac! The problem is that this is a Dirac thread, and measuring and calibrating Bipoles and Dipoles using Dirac is not really possible to get any kind of meaningful calibration. It certainly will give a result, which may even sound acceptable, possibly even pleasing, but it will not be an accurate result. (Much like the sound output from a Bipole or Dipole itself!) It just cannot be. The whole purpose of Dirac is to try and neutralise the effect of the phase and reflection and timing differences of various parts of the audio coming from a single(ish) source. Using it to undo everything the Di/Bipole and reflecting walls are doing using Dirac's computational trickery alone is absolutely a bad idea. Dirac tests one speaker source at a time and modulates the output from that speaker. Try and measure two at the same time and it won't work. With Bipoles or Dipoles, we would effectively be trying to test two or three speakers pointing in different directions at the same time. Dipoles are even more difficult because you get room nulls directly in line with the main speaker axis, where the in-phase and out-of-phase audio cancel out by design, leaving you mostly reflected sound as your resultant audio! Dirac filter computation will fight this hard! I think bi/dipole had a place, but almost none now in a Home Theatre where we are striving for quality. When bought my first HT in 2004 it was 5.1 and I had a pair of switchable direct radiators / dipole for the surrounds and I much preferred the diffused audio using dipole mode as the sound came from everywhere - For me, Dipole put the SURROUND in Surround sound. We are 15 years on now and with modern positional audio mixing and especially with object based audio, this argument is not valid in the context of accuracy. If you are thinking about running room correction on your system, then you are already at a point where Bipole and dipole are the antithesis. The best surround sound upgrade to a 7.1 or more system with any bi/dipoles will, with almost certainty, be taking the hit and changing them for modern direct radiating satellite speakers. This will improve the home movie experience much more than Dirac or "DACS in Dual-mono mode" or XLR balanced cables or front-wides or ceiling Atmos speakers or even multiple subwoofers.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 14, 2021 14:51:52 GMT -5
Interesting. Is Dirac not compatible with bipolar speakers? I wonder if Dirac is confused by front and rear radiating pattern. I have a pair of surround speakers (S12) that can be set as bipole, dipole of monopole. It’s set to bipole but maybe I’ll play around with the setting to see if Dirac works better with the monopole setting. Fortunately, it’s my surround backs so it doesn’t do much. It's not the fact they are dipole, it's just the confusing reflections that cause issues. I already had absorption on the front wall, but the right speaker is in a corner and after I added absorption to the right wall at the corner the problems went away. Well, Dirac should have issues.. The direct sound isn’t even coming towards the mic when calibrating. How would Dirac calculate distance on a bi-pole? Phase? Volume? Then we have the multiple direction and out of phase sound of di-poles. In this case bi-poles are better than di-poles I guess.. I agree with Markc. Doing Dirac on di/bi-poles is counter productive. Nowadays there are even voices coming from the sides so having di/bi-poles sure will sound strange in those cases.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 14, 2021 14:56:24 GMT -5
Surround backs should always be direct-radiated speaker as per Dolby specs. Even sides should be, although having a really long room bi-poles can make it feel the gaps are closed. Di-poles is not recommended for modern soundtracks anymore. But depending on room even di-poles can sometimes be better (narrow rooms). When you’re sitting close to the sides, maybe less than 4-5 feet. My room isn’t too great. 16 x 11 and I have my system setup width-wise bc of my 4 seat theater chairs. So the S12 (surround back) is literally right over my head. I’ll give dipole a try - the bipole works pretty good. And I’m not too serious about surround sound, just want it to sound pretty good. I’m much more critical of 2 channel sound but unfortunately my wife will not allow me to bring my gear to the much larger family room with vaulted ceilings so I’m stuck in my man-cave dungeon (don’t mind too much). 😊 Ah, I guess Surround back shouldn’t even be used in your case?! Maybe better to have rear height instead? What kind of setup do you have? 7.1, 7.1.2 or 7.1.4?
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 14, 2021 15:20:18 GMT -5
My room isn’t too great. 16 x 11 and I have my system setup width-wise bc of my 4 seat theater chairs. So the S12 (surround back) is literally right over my head. I’ll give dipole a try - the bipole works pretty good. And I’m not too serious about surround sound, just want it to sound pretty good. I’m much more critical of 2 channel sound but unfortunately my wife will not allow me to bring my gear to the much larger family room with vaulted ceilings so I’m stuck in my man-cave dungeon (don’t mind too much). 😊 Ah, I guess Surround back shouldn’t even be used in your case?! Maybe better to have rear height instead? What kind of setup do you have? 7.1, 7.1.2 or 7.1.4? It’s going to be 7.1.2. Right now it’s 7.1 - I’m procrastinating hooking up my Atmos speakers. The surround back has made the surround sound experience more enveloping. It’s actually added a lot to the movie watching experience. I do think I need to rerun Dirac and figure out what to do with the rear surround dispersion.
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Post by richter250 on Jan 14, 2021 18:10:31 GMT -5
It's not the fact they are dipole, it's just the confusing reflections that cause issues. I already had absorption on the front wall, but the right speaker is in a corner and after I added absorption to the right wall at the corner the problems went away. Well, Dirac should have issues.. The direct sound isn’t even coming towards the mic when calibrating. How would Dirac calculate distance on a bi-pole? Phase? Volume? Then we have the multiple direction and out of phase sound of di-poles. In this case bi-poles are better than di-poles I guess.. I agree with Markc. Doing Dirac on di/bi-poles is counter productive. Nowadays there are even voices coming from the sides so having di/bi-poles sure will sound strange in those cases. FWIW. I have been using Dirac on my Magnepan speakers (dipolar) since the XMC-1. I have Maggies in the front, center and sides in a 7.1.2 setup. I don't know how Dirac does it but my system always sounds better using Dirac than it does without. I don't think I am the only one with this experience. I have bipolar speakers in the remaining spots, rear and top. Somehow Dirac makes sense of all this and works beautifully in my particular set up.
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2021 18:32:18 GMT -5
Part of the conventional wisdom of Magnepans is that you need to space them at least 5 feet from the front wall. The ear / brain starts being able to tell sounds apart at abuut 10miliseconds. Sound travels about 1feeo per millisecond. At short times, the sounds can mush together and create a sonic blur of sorts.
Trick with Maggies may NOT be sheer absorption but rather more diffusion on the wall behind the speaker. This has the effect of increasing the time of reflection to the listener.
I don't know enough about Dirac and others to comment, but they do seem to be useful tools when properly employed.
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Post by waynestv on Jan 14, 2021 20:21:10 GMT -5
It's not the fact they are dipole, it's just the confusing reflections that cause issues. I already had absorption on the front wall, but the right speaker is in a corner and after I added absorption to the right wall at the corner the problems went away. Well, Dirac should have issues.. The direct sound isn’t even coming towards the mic when calibrating. How would Dirac calculate distance on a bi-pole? Phase? Volume? Then we have the multiple direction and out of phase sound of di-poles. In this case bi-poles are better than di-poles I guess.. I agree with Markc. Doing Dirac on di/bi-poles is counter productive. Nowadays there are even voices coming from the sides so having di/bi-poles sure will sound strange in those cases. So after an initial XMC-2 Dirac run that included Magnepans for the fronts only (5.1.4 setup), I had the dreaded imaging problem in stereo playing fronts only (image was shifted very far right). For my second Dirac calibration I switched out the Magnepans for a pair of decent but old normal box speakers (ACI Saphire IIIs), re-ran everything and the imaging problem is now fixed, the new Dirac sounds quite good for movies and stereo and much different than the user equalization (that I didn't do anything to). HOWEVER, when I checked the levels on the new Dirac filter, all speakers are set to 0 db. After the first Dirac run, most of the levels had been adjusted. I just did a simple check using a phone app and all of the speakers are playing at about the same volume, but doesn't Dirac normally adjust all of the levels? If so, any thoughts on what I did wrong?
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 14, 2021 21:05:38 GMT -5
FWIW. I have been using Dirac on my Magnepan speakers (dipolar) since the XMC-1. I have Maggies in the front, center and sides in a 7.1.2 setup. I don't know how Dirac does it but my system always sounds better using Dirac than it does without. I don't think I am the only one with this experience. I have bipolar speakers in the remaining spots, rear and top. Somehow Dirac makes sense of all this and works beautifully in my particular set up. Same here. Dirac on my XMC-1 working just fine with my Maggies, and it was the first room correction system whose results I preferred over no correction. My initial run with my XMC-2 came out similarly, but I need to do another sweep set to correct some mistakes I made. Still sounds great. Mark
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