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Post by ttocs on Jun 12, 2020 14:02:28 GMT -5
Votes not within the poll 1 Yes. 7.1 setup but no ATMOS speakers enabled 0 No. 7.1 setup but no ATMOS speakers enabled If any of you need to add to the 7.1 candidates please PM me so I can add those. ===================================================
The Neural:X upmixer is having some issues on the RMC-1/XMC-2 processors and it might help to be able to track which speaker setups are vulnerable. The poll is a first step to track this.
If, with Neural:X, you are experiencing low volume, muddy sound, loss of dynamics, possibly vastly increased bass, please share your experience. Please note the movie and scene along with the exact audio track used, and if on disc or stream or HTPC, etc.
I myself have not noticed much except on a few movies, so for me, it seems to be on particular discs. But for others it seems to be a much greater issue. When I switch to Surround the problems are gone.
Please share your thoughts.
edit: June 28: I just tested only the right Front Height:: Sm Front Height speaker and set my Sony X700 player to PCM so I can test the volume of Neural:X vs DSU. Playing 5 seconds of the pool table scene from The Dark Knight where there's a sharp loud sound (knife in mouth) there's a climatic crescendo played through the Front Height channel. Comparing Neural:X to DSU there is no difference in volume in this channel. This tells me that Neural:X is keeping the volume of the immersive channels at the base level set in the avr and lowering the volume in the bed channels to emphasize the immersive channels. I've read where this is what reviewers have found this to be the case, emphasizing the immersive channels for greater effect. This explains why the bed channels are at a lower volume with Neural:X. Please try to corroborate or disprove my findings and theory.
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 14:09:33 GMT -5
The Neural:X upmixer is having some issues on the RMC-1/XMC-2 processors and it might help to be able to track which speaker setups are vulnerable. The poll is a first step to track this. If, with Neural:X, you are experiencing low volume, muddy sound, loss of dynamics, possibly vastly increased bass, please share your experience. Please note the movie and scene along with the exact audio track used, and if on disc or stream or HTPC, etc. I myself have not noticed much except on a few movies, so for me, it seems to be on particular discs. But for others it seems to be a much greater issue. When I switch to Surround the problems are gone. Please share your thoughts. Thank you sir! I didn't see the actual poll. Are polls located in a different place? Edit... Nvm.. I see it now. Thanks again for doing this.
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Post by markc on Jun 12, 2020 17:00:48 GMT -5
You missed yes and no responses for people like me with a simple 7.1 setup who get the Neural:X issues even with expansion of 5.1 DTS or PCM source to 7.1
(And Also of 7.1 to 7.1 Neural:X "expansion" when "bi-amp using Front Wides" is enabled)
I think that it is not dependant on tops/heights. I think extraction to non existent speakers (with lostaudo detail) can be incorrectly done by the Neural:X algorithm on our Processors even in simple setups like 7.1
i can’t vote, yet I’ve detected the problems.
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Post by gideonkjv on Jun 12, 2020 17:04:26 GMT -5
I noticed it quite dramatically during the car chase scene in jack reacher on 4k. Quite a large difference when I switch it back to surround.
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Post by ttocs on Jun 12, 2020 17:25:51 GMT -5
You missed yes and no responses for people like me with a simple 7.1 setup who get the Neural:X issues even with expansion of 5.1 DTS or PCM source to 7.1 (And Also of 7.1 to 7.1 Neural:X "expansion" when "bi-amp using Front Wides" is enabled) I think that it is not dependant on tops/heights. I think extraction to non existent speakers (with lostaudo detail) can be incorrectly done by the Neural:X algorithm on our Processors even in simple setups like 7.1 i can’t vote, yet I’ve detected the problems. Interesting, didn't happen with my system with the movies I watched at the time. Apparently a poll cannot be edited, so either I keep track manually and update the first post, or delete this thread and start over. I'm willing to do either one since it's early, so what do you guys think?
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 17:31:35 GMT -5
You missed yes and no responses for people like me with a simple 7.1 setup who get the Neural:X issues even with expansion of 5.1 DTS or PCM source to 7.1 (And Also of 7.1 to 7.1 Neural:X "expansion" when "bi-amp using Front Wides" is enabled) I think that it is not dependant on tops/heights. I think extraction to non existent speakers (with lostaudo detail) can be incorrectly done by the Neural:X algorithm on our Processors even in simple setups like 7.1 i can’t vote, yet I’ve detected the problems. Interesting, didn't happen with my system with the movies I watched at the time. Apparently a poll cannot be edited, so either I keep track manually and update the first post, or delete this thread and start over. I'm willing to do either one since it's early, so what do you guys think? given the likelihood of another variable, might as well manually track the non-poll items. Again, really appreciate you creating this poll. I hope we receive feedback from everyone.
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Post by ttocs on Jun 12, 2020 17:43:43 GMT -5
Apparently a poll cannot be edited, so either I keep track manually and update the first post, or delete this thread and start over. I'm willing to do either one since it's early, so what do you guys think? given the likelihood of another variable, might as well manually track the non-poll items. Again, really appreciate you creating this poll. I hope we receive feedback from everyone. Yeah, I think you're right. I'll just keep track and add to the top.
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Post by hsamwel on Jun 12, 2020 18:15:55 GMT -5
I have no issues at all when the system is configured as 7.x.4, with four top speakers. Not even a volume difference during my tests.
If I change to 7.x or change the tops to heights the volume drops emmidiately. It’s like Marc said, almost like the dynamics drops because Neural:X expects speakers that’s not present. IMO its like the Neural:X implementation in RMC/XMC is locked to 7.x.4 with tops.
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 18:31:11 GMT -5
I have no issues at all when the system is configured as 7.x.4, with four top speakers. Not even a volume difference during my tests. If I change to 7.x or change the tops to heights the volume drops emmidiately. It’s like Marc said, almost like the dynamics drops because Neural:X expects speakers that’s not present. IMO its like the Neural:X implementation in RMC/XMC is locked to 7.x.4 with tops. I still have the volume drop. I need to reset to defaults to see what that does.
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Post by ttocs on Jun 13, 2020 7:27:58 GMT -5
So far, it's setups with Heights and Wide with issues.
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Post by megash0n on Jun 13, 2020 7:32:09 GMT -5
So far, it's setups with Heights and Wide with issues. I still have the volume issues with Tops. But, I haven't reset to defaults yet. Also, I seem to have too much bass often since being on 1.10. It went from not being enough to way too much at times. It would be awesome to know what issues are fixed or changed with each release.
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Post by aswiss on Jun 14, 2020 5:39:15 GMT -5
For me - DTS-HD MA 24/96 is not possible to Upmix with Neural.X. NO Sound from the TOPS. (Top Sm+Lg Front/Back) Most of my DTS Problems are with these kind of Bitrate. The Rest of DTS is just not having a good dynamic when Upmixing.
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Post by hsamwel on Jun 14, 2020 6:25:19 GMT -5
I have no issues at all when the system is configured as 7.x.4, with four top speakers. Not even a volume difference during my tests. If I change to 7.x or change the tops to heights the volume drops emmidiately. It’s like Marc said, almost like the dynamics drops because Neural:X expects speakers that’s not present. IMO its like the Neural:X implementation in RMC/XMC is locked to 7.x.4 with tops. I still have the volume drop. I need to reset to defaults to see what that does. Yes, but didn’t you ”just” have 5.x.4? My theory is that you need full 7.x.4 with tops to have normal upmixing. Although normal DTS/DTS-HD MA needs quite a volume boost compared to the Dolby formats.. Last night I had to turn up the volume 10-12db compared to normal listening volume with Dolby. This with a normal 5.1 DTS-HD MA using Surround mode (same volume with Neural:X).. All DTS sources would benefit from a input gain of atleast 6db.
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Post by hsamwel on Jun 14, 2020 6:50:37 GMT -5
For me - DTS-HD MA 24/96 is not possible to Upmix with Neural.X. NO Sound from the TOPS. (Top Sm+Lg Front/Back) Most of my DTS Problems are with these kind of Bitrate. The Rest of DTS is just not having a good dynamic when Upmixing. I can confirm that no sound comes from the tops with 96khz 24 bit. But upmixes to surround back. No volume difference with my normal setup (7.2.4). This tested with Eric Clapton Slowhand at 70, which have a DTS-HD MA 5.1 96 khz 24 bit track.
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Post by megash0n on Jun 14, 2020 7:56:52 GMT -5
I still have the volume drop. I need to reset to defaults to see what that does. Yes, but didn’t you ”just” have 5.x.4? My theory is that you need full 7.x.4 with tops to have normal upmixing. Although normal DTS/DTS-HD MA needs quite a volume boost compared to the Dolby formats.. Last night I had to turn up the volume 10-12db compared to normal listening volume with Dolby. This with a normal 5.1 DTS-HD MA using Surround mode (same volume with Neural:X).. All DTS sources would benefit from a input gain of atleast 6db. Yes, I have 5.x.4.
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Post by hsamwel on Jun 14, 2020 9:41:09 GMT -5
Yes, but didn’t you ”just” have 5.x.4? My theory is that you need full 7.x.4 with tops to have normal upmixing. Although normal DTS/DTS-HD MA needs quite a volume boost compared to the Dolby formats.. Last night I had to turn up the volume 10-12db compared to normal listening volume with Dolby. This with a normal 5.1 DTS-HD MA using Surround mode (same volume with Neural:X).. All DTS sources would benefit from a input gain of atleast 6db. Yes, I have 5.x.4. If you have some smaller speakers and a amp laying around you could try with a 7.x.4 setup.. Or just turn on surround back in the speakers settings. I don’t think it matters much for the total volume if they’re there or not.. Voices, music and the main front sound is were you notice the most difference anyway..
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jun 14, 2020 9:53:41 GMT -5
I have 7.1.4 set with "Height" When listening to DTS Neural X I get the ~6db volume reduction and lost of dynamics. I have the xmc2 with firmware 1.10
BTW, each channel has a dedicated 1200 watts amp so there's tons of juice to go around.
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Post by megash0n on Jun 14, 2020 10:29:03 GMT -5
I have 7.1.4 set with "Height" When listening to DTS Neural X I get the ~6db volume reduction and lost of dynamics. I have the xmc2 with firmware 1.10 BTW, each channel has a dedicated 1200 watts amp so there's tons of juice to go around. Yikes. That's a lot of juice! Have you tested with Tops yet?
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Post by megash0n on Jun 14, 2020 10:30:20 GMT -5
If you have some smaller speakers and a amp laying around you could try with a 7.x.4 setup.. Or just turn on surround back in the speakers settings. I don’t think it matters much for the total volume if they’re there or not.. Voices, music and the main front sound is were you notice the most difference anyway.. I have actually turned them on and it didn't help (without speakers) I do have 2 more A1s and a rotel amp I could try
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Post by markc on Jun 14, 2020 12:15:23 GMT -5
If you have some smaller speakers and a amp laying around you could try with a 7.x.4 setup.. Or just turn on surround back in the speakers settings. I don’t think it matters much for the total volume if they’re there or not.. Voices, music and the main front sound is were you notice the most difference anyway.. I have actually turned them on and it didn't help (without speakers) I do have 2 more A1s and a rotel amp I could try I think that hsamwel's theory is that if you have 7.1.4 speakers, you get all the audio, because ANY and every engagement of Neural:X is mixing to a locked 7.1.4 If you have less than 7.1.4, then the XMC-2/RMC-1 doesn't care what is in the speaker congfig - it will mix to 7.1.4 and you lose audio into the missing speakers that you don't actually have, but if you actually have 7.1.4 then you are OK This should be easy to test another way (Or, at least it will show if any "lost" audio is reaching the back terminals for the remaining 7.1.4 speakers which you don't have. It won't show if it is internally extracted and then discarded): e.g. Set speaker config for 7.1 and see if any audio comes from the other XLR height outputs on the back of the Processor when Neural X: engaged e.g.2 Set speaker config as 5.1 and see if audio comes out of the rears and/or height XLR's when Neural:X engaged
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