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Post by markc on Jun 14, 2020 12:18:26 GMT -5
I have 7.1.4 set with "Height" When listening to DTS Neural X I get the ~6db volume reduction and lost of dynamics. I have the xmc2 with firmware 1.10 BTW, each channel has a dedicated 1200 watts amp so there's tons of juice to go around. Could you please try changing them to "Tops" in the speaker config to see if this restores the dynamic and/or the volume. It would be great if you could do this to cross-reference what Megash0n found, and confirm or refute a possible cause / get Emotiva nearer to a solution
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Post by megash0n on Jun 14, 2020 13:03:59 GMT -5
I have actually turned them on and it didn't help (without speakers) I do have 2 more A1s and a rotel amp I could try I think that hsamwel's theory is that if you have 7.1.4 speakers, you get all the audio, because ANY and every engagement of Neural:X is mixing to a locked 7.1.4 If you have less than 7.1.4, then the XMC-2/RMC-1 doesn't care what is in the speaker congfig - it will mix to 7.1.4 and you lose audio into the missing speakers that you don't actually have, but if you actually have 7.1.4 then you are OK This should be easy to test another way (Or, at least it will show if any "lost" audio is reaching the back terminals for the remaining 7.1.4 speakers which you don't have. It won't show if it is internally extracted and then discarded): e.g. Set speaker config for 7.1 and see if any audio comes from the other XLR height outputs on the back of the Processor when Neural X: engaged e.g.2 Set speaker config as 5.1 and see if audio comes out of the rears and/or height XLR's when Neural:X engaged I think whether it does or does not... The dynamics, SQ, loss of bitrate if you will, and muddiness still shouldn't be present on the LCR. We shouldnt really be missing much. It seems most of these things are fixed by selecting Tops, even with a 5.x.4
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Post by davidl81 on Jun 14, 2020 13:11:15 GMT -5
Ok so I just watched several scenes of The Dark Knight UHD disc (DTS-MA 5.1 unconverted to Neutral X) and I don’t have any issues best I can tell. Does not seem quite and I cannot tell any loss of dynamics. I’m running a 7.2.4 configuration and all four of my in ceiling speakers are playing sound. Are you guys switching between just the base 5.1 track then turning the up mixer on? Maybe I can do that to see if I can hear a difference in dynamics. I could find a few scenes and play them both ways and try to capture the dB levels maybe?
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Post by megash0n on Jun 14, 2020 13:15:58 GMT -5
Ok so I just watched several scenes of The Dark Knight UHD disc (DTS-MA 5.1 unconverted to Neutral X) and I don’t have any issues best I can tell. Does not seem quite and I cannot tell any loss of dynamics. I’m running a 7.2.4 configuration and all four of my in ceiling speakers are playing sound. Are you guys switching between just the base 5.1 track then turning the up mixer on? Maybe I can do that to see if I can hear a difference in dynamics. I could find a few scenes and play them both ways and try to capture the dB levels maybe? I'm sorry, but I cannot keep everyone's config straight. Are you running Tops? When I test, I just switch audio modes from surround to auto. With Tops, I don't experience these issues.
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Post by hsamwel on Jun 14, 2020 14:17:48 GMT -5
I have actually turned them on and it didn't help (without speakers) I do have 2 more A1s and a rotel amp I could try I think that hsamwel's theory is that if you have 7.1.4 speakers, you get all the audio, because ANY and every engagement of Neural:X is mixing to a locked 7.1.4 If you have less than 7.1.4, then the XMC-2/RMC-1 doesn't care what is in the speaker congfig - it will mix to 7.1.4 and you lose audio into the missing speakers that you don't actually have, but if you actually have 7.1.4 then you are OK This should be easy to test another way (Or, at least it will show if any "lost" audio is reaching the back terminals for the remaining 7.1.4 speakers which you don't have. It won't show if it is internally extracted and then discarded): e.g. Set speaker config for 7.1 and see if any audio comes from the other XLR height outputs on the back of the Processor when Neural X: engaged e.g.2 Set speaker config as 5.1 and see if audio comes out of the rears and/or height XLR's when Neural:X engaged The problem is just that audio do come out of the center which are muddier and lower in volume. It’s not like a little lower volume from a few less speakers. The whole sound characteristics change. Almost the same effect as if you disconnect the center speaker and hear the voices from ”far away” through the fronts. But not so drastic change.. But it does not hurt to try these steps anyway..
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Post by davidl81 on Jun 14, 2020 14:49:00 GMT -5
Ok so I just watched several scenes of The Dark Knight UHD disc (DTS-MA 5.1 unconverted to Neutral X) and I don’t have any issues best I can tell. Does not seem quite and I cannot tell any loss of dynamics. I’m running a 7.2.4 configuration and all four of my in ceiling speakers are playing sound. Are you guys switching between just the base 5.1 track then turning the up mixer on? Maybe I can do that to see if I can hear a difference in dynamics. I could find a few scenes and play them both ways and try to capture the dB levels maybe? I'm sorry, but I cannot keep everyone's config straight. Are you running Tops? When I test, I just switch audio modes from surround to auto. With Tops, I don't experience these issues. It shows heights in my speaker settings.
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Post by davidl81 on Jun 14, 2020 14:55:28 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I cannot keep everyone's config straight. Are you running Tops? When I test, I just switch audio modes from surround to auto. With Tops, I don't experience these issues. It shows heights in my speaker settings. I changed it to tops and I’ll see if I hear a difference
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Post by jh714 on Jun 14, 2020 15:40:46 GMT -5
So I have not had time to do a lot of watching but... I'm a 7.2.4 Set up. My XMC-2 is using Firmware 1.10. I've played 2 discs, both DTS Master HD 5.1. My subs are set to dual mono; my fronts are set Large and all the other speakers are set small. The only difference in my 2 Presets are the ".4" speakers. On one they are set at "TOPS"; on the other "HEIGHTS". If there is a decrease in volume - I don't notice it. Let me ad, that I LIKE volume! In both cases, I thought that the discs sounded better than ever. I did switch between the 2 Presets, on both discs. In both cases, their was a subtle difference, but not a lot. In both cases, I preferred "Height". I'm thinking that I will finally watch a true DTS-X disc tonight, but....
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Post by megash0n on Jun 14, 2020 15:51:29 GMT -5
So I have not had time to do a lot of watching but... I'm a 7.2.4 Set up. My XMC-2 is using Firmware 1.10. I've played 2 discs, both DTS Master HD 5.1. My subs are set to dual mono; my fronts are set Large and all the other speakers are set small. The only difference in my 2 Presets are the ".4" speakers. On one they are set at "TOPS"; on the other "HEIGHTS". If there is a decrease in volume - I don't notice it. Let me ad, that I LIKE volume! In both cases, I thought that the discs sounded better than ever. I did switch between the 2 Presets, on both discs. In both cases, their was a subtle difference, but not a lot. In both cases, I preferred "Height". I'm thinking that I will finally watch a true DTS-X disc tonight, but.... I've said this a bunch, but I'm confused why some people have this issue and others do not. The difference for me and others is very noticeable. I need to make the time to reset mine and do more testing this week.
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Post by jh714 on Jun 14, 2020 16:01:57 GMT -5
So I have not had time to do a lot of watching but... I'm a 7.2.4 Set up. My XMC-2 is using Firmware 1.10. I've played 2 discs, both DTS Master HD 5.1. My subs are set to dual mono; my fronts are set Large and all the other speakers are set small. The only difference in my 2 Presets are the ".4" speakers. On one they are set at "TOPS"; on the other "HEIGHTS". If there is a decrease in volume - I don't notice it. Let me ad, that I LIKE volume! In both cases, I thought that the discs sounded better than ever. I did switch between the 2 Presets, on both discs. In both cases, their was a subtle difference, but not a lot. In both cases, I preferred "Height". I'm thinking that I will finally watch a true DTS-X disc tonight, but.... I've said this a bunch, but I'm confused why some people have this issue and others do not. The difference for me and others is very noticeable. I need to make the time to reset mine and do more testing this week. I hear you. Apparently, I'm more in line with 'ttocs'.....in other words, no complaints. Then again, I still haven't done a lot of serious playing yet. I'll get to it....and be back.
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Post by hsamwel on Jun 14, 2020 17:29:06 GMT -5
So I have not had time to do a lot of watching but... I'm a 7.2.4 Set up. My XMC-2 is using Firmware 1.10. I've played 2 discs, both DTS Master HD 5.1. My subs are set to dual mono; my fronts are set Large and all the other speakers are set small. The only difference in my 2 Presets are the ".4" speakers. On one they are set at "TOPS"; on the other "HEIGHTS". If there is a decrease in volume - I don't notice it. Let me ad, that I LIKE volume! In both cases, I thought that the discs sounded better than ever. I did switch between the 2 Presets, on both discs. In both cases, their was a subtle difference, but not a lot. In both cases, I preferred "Height". I'm thinking that I will finally watch a true DTS-X disc tonight, but.... Even if you switch between Surround and DTS Neural:X mode? Don’t you notice a slight drop in the volume of the voices? It’s sometimes harder to notice the first times, but once you noticed it... It’s easier to notice with good recordings as well. I actually first watched The Others and did not notice any difference. Then put on some live music and noticed it straight away.
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Post by davidl81 on Jun 14, 2020 17:37:52 GMT -5
So I have not had time to do a lot of watching but... I'm a 7.2.4 Set up. My XMC-2 is using Firmware 1.10. I've played 2 discs, both DTS Master HD 5.1. My subs are set to dual mono; my fronts are set Large and all the other speakers are set small. The only difference in my 2 Presets are the ".4" speakers. On one they are set at "TOPS"; on the other "HEIGHTS". If there is a decrease in volume - I don't notice it. Let me ad, that I LIKE volume! In both cases, I thought that the discs sounded better than ever. I did switch between the 2 Presets, on both discs. In both cases, their was a subtle difference, but not a lot. In both cases, I preferred "Height". I'm thinking that I will finally watch a true DTS-X disc tonight, but.... That is what I find as well. I cannot switch to “Surround” since it is a base DTS track. I could try to find a non dts or Dolby track and see if I can tell a difference with the upmixer
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Post by megash0n on Jun 14, 2020 20:04:54 GMT -5
So I have not had time to do a lot of watching but... I'm a 7.2.4 Set up. My XMC-2 is using Firmware 1.10. I've played 2 discs, both DTS Master HD 5.1. My subs are set to dual mono; my fronts are set Large and all the other speakers are set small. The only difference in my 2 Presets are the ".4" speakers. On one they are set at "TOPS"; on the other "HEIGHTS". If there is a decrease in volume - I don't notice it. Let me ad, that I LIKE volume! In both cases, I thought that the discs sounded better than ever. I did switch between the 2 Presets, on both discs. In both cases, their was a subtle difference, but not a lot. In both cases, I preferred "Height". I'm thinking that I will finally watch a true DTS-X disc tonight, but.... That is what I find as well. I cannot switch to “Surround” since it is a base DTS track. I could try to find a non dts or Dolby track and see if I can tell a difference with the upmixer Surround should be playing the native DTS track whereas Neural X will up mix it. Are you saying you cannot select Surround? Not to be confused with Dolby Surround Upmixer which is the same Surround word with the Dolby emblem in front.
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Post by markc on Jun 15, 2020 2:07:00 GMT -5
So I have not had time to do a lot of watching but... I'm a 7.2.4 Set up. My XMC-2 is using Firmware 1.10. I've played 2 discs, both DTS Master HD 5.1. My subs are set to dual mono; my fronts are set Large and all the other speakers are set small. The only difference in my 2 Presets are the ".4" speakers. On one they are set at "TOPS"; on the other "HEIGHTS". If there is a decrease in volume - I don't notice it. Let me ad, that I LIKE volume! In both cases, I thought that the discs sounded better than ever. I did switch between the 2 Presets, on both discs. In both cases, their was a subtle difference, but not a lot. In both cases, I preferred "Height". I'm thinking that I will finally watch a true DTS-X disc tonight, but.... That is what I find as well. I cannot switch to “Surround” since it is a base DTS track. I could try to find a non dts or Dolby track and see if I can tell a difference with the upmixer Or just use any PCM track - the issue is not the DTS source, it is the processing done by the DTS Neural:X upmixer (which can only be applied to PCM or DTS sources but works identically (badly) for either)
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Post by megash0n on Jun 15, 2020 18:32:02 GMT -5
I've finally reset to defaults. I'm not sure it sounds any different, but this is the first time I've went back and forth between Surround and DTS Neural. Using The Dark Knight Rises, the opening plane scene, I switched between Direct, Surround and Neural. All 3 have the same overall volume which is roughly 6 db lower. This in itself is fine since you can just turn it up. Ideally, everything would be pretty close, but I'm sure that will be addressed at some point. It is consistent with what I've seen since January. This is with Tops configured in a 5.x.4 config. What I'm hearing is a bit more presence from the LCR with Direct and Surround mode. Neural doesn't sound bad, but the low end isn't quite the same. It wouldn't be noticed without a side by side comparison. If I had to guess, we are talking about just over the crossover point to around 200hz is what seems to be missing maybe %30 of the punch if I had to guesstimate. Like I said, it doesn't sound bad. It just seems like something was borrowed from the LCR to give to the surrounds. My fronts are T1s and a C1. Everything else are A1s except for my rear Tops which are some cheaper in ceiling speakers. This may just be a product of up mixing. Now I'm looking at my configuration while typing and I've realized that my settings that were restored are old settings. Fun times. I guess I'll be redoing everything from scratch now.
Edit: I swapped back to using Heights and the same nasty stuff was back.
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Post by markc on Jun 16, 2020 1:34:55 GMT -5
I am intrigued to know a bit more about the one person who had no problem with Neural:X AND has heights in use as well as Tops.
That one vote is an outlier and doesn't fit the rest of the data, so is likely to be suspect
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Post by JKCashin on Jun 16, 2020 2:44:03 GMT -5
I just read this at this link. Is this still true (or was it ever true) and could it be related to the issues some see with Neurlal:X?
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Post by cwt on Jun 16, 2020 4:54:36 GMT -5
I just read this at this link. Is this still true (or was it ever true) and could it be related to the issues some see with Neurlal:X? Certainly those poll options that include wides and tops are problematic because of the 11ch processing limit of dts-x at the moment . When dts-x pro is instituted this limit will go away ; yay
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doc1963
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Post by doc1963 on Jun 16, 2020 4:58:32 GMT -5
I just read this at this link. Is this still true (or was it ever true) and could it be related to the issues some see with Neurlal:X? It’s never been a secret that DTS Neural:X is limited to 11.1 channels and it would make sense that concessions would have to be made in certain configurations. DTS:X Pro will greatly expand upon the current eleven channel limit of Neural:X and is a very good reason why Emotiva should look to employ it sooner rather than later. For example, my AV8805 will receive DTS:X Pro via a firmware update later this year. While I know Emotiva will not be prepared to follow suit, hopefully they will not be too far behind. “Never” getting DTS:X Pro should not be considered to be an acceptable option for any 16 (plus) channel processor. My speaker arrangement is a traditional 7.x.4 layout using “top” height channels (and are assigned that way). While I do experience the somewhat reduced volume level when using Neural:X, the overall effects sound normal to me and similar to what I experienced when using my 8805. DTS Neural:X does function differently than DSU (by design) and "some" differences can be expected. But "missing sounds" and/or "smeared effects" shouldn't be among them and, thankfully, isn't part of my experience thus far.
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Post by megash0n on Jun 16, 2020 9:04:46 GMT -5
I am intrigued to know a bit more about the one person who had no problem with Neural:X AND has heights in use as well as Tops. That one vote is an outlier and doesn't fit the rest of the data, so is likely to be suspect I often wonder if some are truly paying attention and doing side by side comparisons as well. While my complaints are well documented, except for most has been censored, I will say that I have a hard time grasping how we each experience something different. It would be interesting to know how the hardware is sourced in these processors. Do they all have identical components or are they sourced at the time of production based on price at the time. Think Dell vs old school Compaq. Dell is famous for buying different hardware throughout the life cycle of a platform whereas Compaq would get an agreement to have the same hardware developed by their suppliers for a period of time. Little changes like this manifest into issues or inconsistencies. I'm not saying this is a problem. I'm only curious for the purpose of understanding why each of us see something different. To me, the code is the code. Whether it is written well or not, it should be fairly consistent across the identical hardware. Something else that would be cool is if they would outsource the development of the HDMI boards to someone like HD Fury. While this may drive up up front cost, it is possible that it would drastically reduce long term issues and enhance end user adoption which creates an upward spike of new and repeat customers. But, back to the point. I don't really understand how some have this issue and some don't. If the hardware and software is the same, we should all experience the same thing. I can't grasp how HDMI connected devices could be the culprit for this manifestation of DTS being improperly played thru the speakers. Lastly, before I'm blasted for this message, I'm not complaining. I'm trying to have a productive, logical conversation to understand why we are having issues.
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