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Post by vcautokid on Jun 27, 2020 18:52:31 GMT -5
Okay real easy. Tape loops are dead. No processor has them. Done. Nah, there is more. UMC-1 is not a grand choice, neither is the MC700 either. An XMC-1 is great. If HDMI switching is not a concern and the latest 5.1 codecs are not a biggy, look at older Anthem. I got an AVM-30, a $3000.00 processor in the day for $175.00 used! Missing the remote. So what?! Get a Harmony remote and encode the codes there for operation and setup, or do it from the front panel like I did. The build on the Anthem is excellent. Way better than my bedroom deserves, but it was stupid cheap, sounds great, and has unbalanced and balanced outs too. It may not have the latest wiz bang room correction though. Don't know if that matters. Your call. But choices are plenty out there on legacy processors with or without HDMI switching. Life is easier using non HDMI switching as your TV rocks the vote doing it there and optical out. You just don't get TrueHD, and all that if that matters.
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Post by millst on Jun 28, 2020 11:14:57 GMT -5
The power amp or the preamp? I was surprised when a friend of mine hooked up expensive Bryston amps to a fairly low end Onkyo preamp. It sounded very impressive and figured that it is mostly the power amp. I'd say this is less important these days. For solid state amps, they all sound almost exactly the same until over-driven. With modern tech, you get a lot of watts in a small package. Similar for pre-pros. It's mostly about feature set and execution. Entry level processing is close to the limits of our hearing. Neither is going to have a bigger effect than speakers/room (note: not including room correction). So when I googled it I found that a lot of the image/sound stage has to do with the original recording/mixing and it's the speakers that contribute to the reproduction of the 3d image. I was going to make this comment as I started reading your post. Yes, the sound stage is almost always an artificial construction in recordings. Each instrument is recording separately and mic'd differently. Everything is then mixed down to stereo by a sound engineer.
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Post by synmag on Jul 6, 2020 15:22:09 GMT -5
Okay real easy. Tape loops are dead. No processor has them. Done. Nah, there is more. UMC-1 is not a grand choice, neither is the MC700 either. An XMC-1 is great. If HDMI switching is not a concern and the latest 5.1 codecs are not a biggy, look at older Anthem. I got an AVM-30, a $3000.00 processor in the day for $175.00 used! Missing the remote. So what?! Get a Harmony remote and encode the codes there for operation and setup, or do it from the front panel like I did. The build on the Anthem is excellent. Way better than my bedroom deserves, but it was stupid cheap, sounds great, and has unbalanced and balanced outs too. It may not have the latest wiz bang room correction though. Don't know if that matters. Your call. But choices are plenty out there on legacy processors with or without HDMI switching. Life is easier using non HDMI switching as your TV rocks the vote doing it there and optical out. You just don't get TrueHD, and all that if that matters. Regarding the tape loop I was thinking about it and realized that I'm not going to be recording to tape and to play back existing tapes I can always hook it up to an analog audio input, even the 7.1 in should work but most units still have analog stereo ins. It's funny that you mention the Anthem as I did see an AVM20 for sale for $375. I read a great review on it my only concern would be that it's 20 years old. I mean that's pre-HD though it can do HD over component. It has 7.1 analog in for an oppo to gain HD audio so in theory it would work. The concern is how does it stand up to current crop for stereo. I know it's great for movies but I have seen some reviews where recent units beat it. I have decided against the Integra/Marantz/Onkyo route as various reviews put them behind Rotel/Emotiva etc. Interestingly a umc-200 came up nearby for $260. By the time I went through the AVS owner's thread it was sold. Now there is a umc-1 for more ($300) which functionality/input wise would do it for me it's just the question of reliability. In terms of my other favorite, the Rotel, there are three available: RSP-1066/1068/1069. The 1069 actually has 4 HDMI ports though only 1.1. AFAIK they are a solid built and reliable. I should know, I dropped a Rotel receiver in my garage from about 4 feet about 3 years ago and it's still working great. So the saga is not over yet. BTW I found a shop that charges about $60 for diagnosis and think they can fix my lmc-1. I have never had such a hard time deciding on something. To make things worse, there is the outlaw 975 which was reviewed on par with the umc-200 and now the new 976 which looks pretty good for $999.
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Post by housetech on Jul 6, 2020 16:49:10 GMT -5
#1- XMC-1 hands down, checks your boxes, best sound #2- Anthem. Clean sound & build quality. You can get Anthem MRX x10 (1080p) receivers under $500, ARC is a free download if needed. (don't know if older models x00 have preamp out) #2a- Rotel, you know. Clean sound & build quality Anthem & Rotel receivers give you clean, honest high current power in 2 channel.
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jul 6, 2020 22:53:04 GMT -5
From my observations, speakers have the most impact on sound stage. Placement is important, but a good sound source/material and speakers take the day. I have auditioned several different speakers in my exact setup, and the differences in clarity, sound stage and dimensionality to the sound was most impacted by the speaker.. 2 cents.
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Post by synmag on Jul 7, 2020 11:48:41 GMT -5
#1- XMC-1 hands down, checks your boxes, best sound #2- Anthem. Clean sound & build quality. You can get Anthem MRX x10 (1080p) receivers under $500, ARC is a free download if needed. (don't know if older models x00 have preamp out) #2a- Rotel, you know. Clean sound & build quality Anthem & Rotel receivers give you clean, honest high current power in 2 channel. . Thanks for the Anthem receiver suggestion. There is an MRX 300 available for $300 yes, it has pre outs, ARC, 1.4a HDMI and HD audio. Nice! OTOH there is a Rotel RSP-1069 also for $300 with 1.1 HDMI no HD audio or room correction. According to one review digital input CD tracks have the start cut off for which Rotel suggested using an optical/coax input hmmm. There is also an RSP-1068 for $250 which as far as I can tell is the same as the 1069 less the HDMI inputs. Damn, this isn't getting any easier . The Anthem sounds really good as it would solve my input issues with with the 1.4a HDMI ports. The 1068 can be a really good bang for the buck as a short term solution. Oh, yeah, there is still the UMC-1 also for $300. I pretty much crossed it off due to the reliability scare.
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Post by cwt on Jul 7, 2020 13:06:35 GMT -5
Damn, this isn't getting any easier . The Anthem sounds really good as it would solve my input issues with with the 1.4a HDMI ports. The 1068 can be a really good bang for the buck as a short term solution. Oh, yeah, there is still the UMC-1 also for $300. I pretty much crossed it off due to the reliability scare. Most rooms are far from perfect George and good room eq is important . That makes it easy to pick the Anthem as ARC-1 is well thought off even if you cant get the latest ARC Genesis . Of course Dirac on the XMC1 is more configurable and modern and the XMC1 has input to output balanced 2ch ;unlike the others single ended circuitry . I didnt look up the 1069's dac capability but I can say hdmi1.1 is not compatible with a dsd stream ; that came with hdmi1.2 so lpcm conversion or multi analogue is it for sacd ..
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Post by synmag on Jul 7, 2020 14:14:36 GMT -5
Damn, this isn't getting any easier . The Anthem sounds really good as it would solve my input issues with with the 1.4a HDMI ports. The 1068 can be a really good bang for the buck as a short term solution. Oh, yeah, there is still the UMC-1 also for $300. I pretty much crossed it off due to the reliability scare. Most rooms are far from perfect George and good room eq is important . That makes it easy to pick the Anthem as ARC-1 is well thought off even if you cant get the latest ARC Genesis . Of course Dirac on the XMC1 is more configurable and modern and the XMC1 has input to output balanced 2ch ;unlike the others single ended circuitry . I didnt look up the 1069's dac capability but I can say hdmi1.1 is not compatible with a dsd stream ; that came with hdmi1.2 so lpcm conversion or multi analogue is it for sacd .. Unless someone wants to sell me an original XMC-1 for $500-$600 it's too much for me both hardware and price wise. I think I will go for the Anthem if it's still available. One issue I just noticed is that it does not have 7.1 analog in which is what I'm using to output from my SACD player. I am aware 1.1 will not send DSD via HDMI as my Denon DVD player I use for SACD is 1.1. So, if I go with the Anthem I'm looking at replacing my SACD player as well. I have to confirm players can send decoded DSD via HDMI (1.2 and up). If I went the Rotel route both have analog ins and wouldn't really need HDMI. The 1068 is a better value. Any good recommendations for an SACD with analog outs? I haven't looked at used oppo prices but people tend to hold on to them and don't come up for sale near me. Mind you they are not too heavy so shipping might be ok.
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Post by housetech on Jul 7, 2020 15:29:35 GMT -5
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Post by synmag on Jul 7, 2020 16:11:21 GMT -5
I have gone down a deep rabbit hole with the Anthem. I'm spending way too much time researching it. With the MRX 300 it seems they changed the HDMI version from 1.3 to 1.4 during production as I see people claiming that the chip can't do 1.4. Another issue is that someone reported that even though if indeed it can do 1.4 it does not have DHCP 2 therefore one would have to use toslink for audio which means no HD audio. This brings up an interesting question. Where can you get HD audio for movies other than bluray discs and how have people enjoyed HD audio prior to HDMI 2? Through analog 7.1? One poster said only the MRX x20 versions had dhcp 2 which can pass HD aduio via HDMI. If that's the case I'm better off with the Rotel 1068 as much as I like the sound of the Anthem. I'm really excited with its bass management how it can do both subwoofer and LFE. This has been a major issue for me between digital movie audio and analog SACD audio.
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Post by cwt on Jul 7, 2020 21:31:06 GMT -5
With the MRX 300 it seems they changed the HDMI version from 1.3 to 1.4 during production as I see people claiming that the chip can't do 1.4. Another issue is that someone reported that even though if indeed it can do 1.4 it does not have DHCP 2 therefore one would have to use toslink for audio which means no HD audio. This brings up an interesting question. Where can you get HD audio for movies other than bluray discs and how have people enjoyed HD audio prior to HDMI 2? Through analog 7.1? One poster said only the MRX x20 versions had dhcp 2 which can pass HD aduio via HDMI. A few problems with hdcp George . The earlier versions of hdmi like 1.3/1.4 had hdcp 1.4 for copy protection . They are fine for lossless decoding of truehd and dts hdma [1.4 just added things like 3d and 4k- unfortunately without the needed hdcp2.2- over what 1.3 could do]. If you wanted to handle UHD sources you would need the later hdcp2.2 which came with hdmi 2.0 . There are ways around this though with hdcp converters like this AUS one ;https://www.jaycar.com.au/hdcp-converter/p/AC1725 Current avrs like the Anthem 720 have the latest hdmi and hdcp to pass the highest bandwidth signals like UHD ; the .a suffix just means it can pass HDR as well.If you can get a anthem 720 you will be future proofed for atmos and dts-x not to mention ARC Genesis.
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Post by synmag on Jul 8, 2020 10:37:19 GMT -5
With the MRX 300 it seems they changed the HDMI version from 1.3 to 1.4 during production as I see people claiming that the chip can't do 1.4. Another issue is that someone reported that even though if indeed it can do 1.4 it does not have DHCP 2 therefore one would have to use toslink for audio which means no HD audio. This brings up an interesting question. Where can you get HD audio for movies other than bluray discs and how have people enjoyed HD audio prior to HDMI 2? Through analog 7.1? One poster said only the MRX x20 versions had dhcp 2 which can pass HD aduio via HDMI. A few problems with hdcp George . The earlier versions of hdmi like 1.3/1.4 had hdcp 1.4 for copy protection . They are fine for lossless decoding of truehd and dts hdma [1.4 just added things like 3d and 4k- unfortunately without the needed hdcp2.2- over what 1.3 could do]. If you wanted to handle UHD sources you would need the later hdcp2.2 which came with hdmi 2.0 . There are ways around this though with hdcp converters like this AUS one ;https://www.jaycar.com.au/hdcp-converter/p/AC1725 Current avrs like the Anthem 720 have the latest hdmi and hdcp to pass the highest bandwidth signals like UHD ; the .a suffix just means it can pass HDR as well.If you can get a anthem 720 you will be future proofed for atmos and dts-x not to mention ARC Genesis. Thanks for clearing up hdcp I never looked at it closely. I do recall the encryption was broken a while ago which makes the device you linked possible. It's good to know that option exists. It's another case of makeing life difficult for the honest owner. I spoke with the seller and he said it will play HD audio and decoded DSD over HDMI. My position is to either buy a device without HDMI which is over 10 years old for really cheap while meeting my requirement good example is the RSP-1068. I don't like to go with current units with all the latest formats as they are the ones that fall in value the quicest, tradein programs and discount cards notwithstanding like Emotiva's. I'm ok with middle of the road like HDMI 1.3/1.4 less than 10 years old but still significantly cheaper since they are technically obsolete even though they can still do everything I need. Right now, it looks like I will buy both the rotel rsp-1068 and the anthem and keep the one I like most. I'm really curious about the Anthem but It's a pain that I would have to buy and SACD player since it doesn't have the analog input and my player is only HDMI 1.1. Unfortunately the seller doesn't have ARC or the associated hardware (cable/mike) so I have to look into if it's possible to get it. I guess it must have been an option and he didn't buy it. It's unfortunate as I read that the mikes were calibrated for each receiver with a matching serial number.
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Post by cwt on Jul 8, 2020 12:40:26 GMT -5
Right now, it looks like I will buy both the rotel rsp-1068 and the anthem and keep the one I like most. I'm really curious about the Anthem but It's a pain that I would have to buy and SACD player since it doesn't have the analog input and my player is only HDMI 1.1. Unfortunately the seller doesn't have ARC or the associated hardware (cable/mike) so I have to look into if it's possible to get it. I guess it must have been an option and he didn't buy it. It's unfortunate as I read that the mikes were calibrated for each receiver with a matching serial number. Shame about the ARC ; hope Anthem can help . What model is the sacd player ? Many can convert the dsd to lpcm which hdmi 1.1 can take [if the denon isnt very early gen]. Good luck
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Post by housetech on Jul 8, 2020 16:58:21 GMT -5
ARC is a free download.
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Post by creimes on Jul 8, 2020 18:59:54 GMT -5
The last XMC-1 I seen sell here with the 1080p HDMI 1.4 board was $800, it also has the 7.1 analog in that you would need, see if you can find one selling for that ? it seems like for a tad more if you can find one it's a great option for you.
Chad
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Post by synmag on Jul 8, 2020 21:58:08 GMT -5
Right now, it looks like I will buy both the rotel rsp-1068 and the anthem and keep the one I like most. I'm really curious about the Anthem but It's a pain that I would have to buy and SACD player since it doesn't have the analog input and my player is only HDMI 1.1. Unfortunately the seller doesn't have ARC or the associated hardware (cable/mike) so I have to look into if it's possible to get it. I guess it must have been an option and he didn't buy it. It's unfortunate as I read that the mikes were calibrated for each receiver with a matching serial number. Shame about the ARC ; hope Anthem can help . What model is the sacd player ? Many can convert the dsd to lpcm which hdmi 1.1 can take [if the denon isnt very early gen]. Good luck I have been reading the AVS forums for the XRM 300/500/700 and recently there are all kinds of failures reported. Also, it seems the mic doesn't have proper drivers for recent versions of windows. It just seems more trouble than it's worth. Meanwhile I'm picking up the Rotel 1069 tomorrow night. I negotiated the price down to $225 and after reading reviews I learned that while it looks like the 1068, in addition to the HDMI inputs it was redesigned from the ground up and sounds much better. Unless I'm disappointed with its sound it should be a perfect match to my RMB-1075 amp and it has everything I need. The only thing missing is the HD audio for movies which might be a dying breed. The funny thing is that I might not even use HDMI in the end. The Denon is a DVD-2910. It was a high end unit in it's day that I picked up for a song after bluray came out and everyone was selling their DVD players. It has a burr-brown (SP?) DAC which sounds great with DVD-a and SACD. It might be interesting to compare it with the DAC in the Rotel if I am able to send LPCM from it over HDMI. Housetech, ARC may be a free download but all the hardware is not, RS232 to USB converter/cable/mic. I read it was over a $400 option. I did make an offer on it and if I can get it for my price I might still pick it up to try. Perhaps I can find someone local who might have a mic who would be willing to help me out to run it once.
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Post by synmag on Jul 8, 2020 22:05:14 GMT -5
The last XMC-1 I seen sell here with the 1080p HDMI 1.4 board was $800, it also has the 7.1 analog in that you would need, see if you can find one selling for that ? it seems like for a tad more if you can find one it's a great option for you. Chad $225 is significantly cheaper than $800. I'd rather spend the money on a bluray with HD audio/SACD/DVD-A capability. BTW what does everyone here think about HD audio for movies? I use Netflix for movies and it has DD 5.1. I thought I saw something about ATMOS. Is ATMOS soundtrack backwards compatible or is it a whole new sound format in addition to the extra channels? I should spend some time to read about it. I haven't looked at it much since I'm not interested in the extra channels.
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Post by creimes on Jul 8, 2020 22:10:13 GMT -5
The last XMC-1 I seen sell here with the 1080p HDMI 1.4 board was $800, it also has the 7.1 analog in that you would need, see if you can find one selling for that ? it seems like for a tad more if you can find one it's a great option for you. Chad $225 is significantly cheaper than $800. I'd rather spend the money on a bluray with HD audio/SACD/DVD-A capability. BTW what does everyone here think about HD audio for movies? I use Netflix for movies and it has DD 5.1. I thought I saw something about ATMOS. Is ATMOS soundtrack backwards compatible or is it a whole new sound format in addition to the extra channels? I should spend some time to read about it. I haven't looked at it much since I'm not interested in the extra channels. I'm still 5ch, won't be going Atmos and I'm still 1080p with no 4K projector, I don't find I need it but what I really do enjoy is great sounding 2ch and the XMC-1 is killer for that, hopefully I'm sending mine in right away for the XMC-2 upgrade, let us know about the Rotel, you can get great deals and sound by not getting the latest greatest for sure, the Sherbourn PT-7020a or PT-7020C4 for example. Cheers, Chad
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Post by synmag on Jul 8, 2020 22:44:58 GMT -5
$225 is significantly cheaper than $800. I'd rather spend the money on a bluray with HD audio/SACD/DVD-A capability. BTW what does everyone here think about HD audio for movies? I use Netflix for movies and it has DD 5.1. I thought I saw something about ATMOS. Is ATMOS soundtrack backwards compatible or is it a whole new sound format in addition to the extra channels? I should spend some time to read about it. I haven't looked at it much since I'm not interested in the extra channels. I'm still 5ch, won't be going Atmos and I'm still 1080p with no 4K projector, I don't find I need it but what I really do enjoy is great sounding 2ch and the XMC-1 is killer for that, hopefully I'm sending mine in right away for the XMC-2 upgrade, let us know about the Rotel, you can get great deals and sound by not getting the latest greatest for sure, the Sherbourn PT-7020a or PT-7020C4 for example. Cheers, Chad I will report back. I do have a 4k tv and I actually downgraded Netflix 4k to HD as the TV's up conversion looks so good I probably couldn't tell the difference in an A/B test from my viewing distance. In my living room I have no room or need for more than 5.1 channels. I do recall HD audio sounding much better when I tested the first Toshiba HD-DVD which I returned when I saw that bluray was winning. The thing is that the only way I know to get HD audio for movies legally is on disc and rentals have disappeared and I'm not buying each movie I want to watch. Since I have limited resources I always enjoyed buying "old" but high end equipment for cheap.
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Post by cwt on Jul 9, 2020 3:46:12 GMT -5
The Denon is a DVD-2910. It was a high end unit in it's day that I picked up for a song after bluray came out and everyone was selling their DVD players. It has a burr-brown (SP?) DAC which sounds great with DVD-a and SACD. It might be interesting to compare it with the DAC in the Rotel if I am able to send LPCM from it over HDMI. Found a post that said the 2910 cant decode multichannel dsd to lpcm unfortunately but it will convert stereo dsd so you can compare that .With the rotel you can still get a sub with built in auto peq [ which will help the important bass frequencies]. I run a velodyne sp1200 ultra to do this ; svs are another brand. Atmos is a whole new format using object sound rather than specific channels. It can be carried as metadata piggybacked on lossy dolby digital plus[streamed on netflix etc] or with lossless on bluray and uhd bluray. The sound quality of lossy codecs can be tied to the mbps rate to a certain extent . DD on a dvd used to be 448kbps but when bluray came out the kbps went up to 640 for dd ;and for dts it went up to 1.5mbps which can be hard to pick from lossless DD+ goes up to 1.7mbps
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