DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2020 15:40:20 GMT -5
A friend of mine was an adamant anti-subwoofer music fan. He had a very nice setup but I thought it lacked that LF rumble - what the audiophooles might call "body." He came to my house and listened to my 2-channel setup that featured a set of expensive Devore Orangutan speakers and a DIY subwoofer I built using an Aurasound 18-inch driver. I played some of his favorite quiet acoustic long-hair music for him.- violin and piano concertos. He was amazed at how much the sub added to the experience, even though you could not "tell" it was on unless you turned it off. Even with that sort of music, the subsonics were important.
Most subwoofers are set up for home theater, which makes them entirely too hot for 2-channel music. This is also why I am an advocate for separate systems for the two purposes if possible.
So Boomzilla, I recommend you don't give up. But if you Do give up, and if you decide to invest in new speakers, don't get hung up on the specs. Just buy something you like.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 27, 2020 16:13:17 GMT -5
Good advice, as almost always! Thanks.
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jun 27, 2020 16:27:14 GMT -5
I will chime in also in the favor of speakers and subs combo, and I will add that for me the best subs match for stereo music listening is sealed boxes subs because the best quality for this type of subs are controlled, tight, and fast transient bass response and these are the qualities we're looking for music. And from my experience this type of subs are much easier to blend with main speakers. Naturally two subs flanking the main are the best in terms of stereophonic images.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 16:59:54 GMT -5
I've reached the end of my rope with subwoofers. I want some full-range speakers. Full-range, in my definition, having a -3dB anechoic response at 30 Hz. (or lower). I think that I've narrowed down the contenders to but two, but there are a LOT of speakers still out there that I'm unfamiliar with... I'm also not interested in buying used and having to possibly scrounge for repair parts should the used speakers break. New speakers I'm considering include the Tekton Double Impact models and the GoldenEar Triton 2+ models. Although the Double Impacts seem to be $1K cheaper, the GoldenEars can be bought at discount - the Tektons can't. What sound do I want? I'd like (but won't get) phase coherent. I'd like a smooth frequency response, but with very good dynamics. Think Thiels on steroids... So those are my criteria - and once again - NO USED MODELS. Thanks - BoomaDooma If you're ordering the Tektons mention you're a reviewer. On the Worldwide Tekton owner's group it was stated that staff informed customers that a reviewer had priority and was backing orders up. Just recieved my 2nd 4-10 and the order was quick. To me the wait is worth designed and assembled in America product though speakers are sourced not only from America but Europe. Wish you'd consider the Moabs boom. They're getting most hype at the moment. From what I see they use the more expensive flagship MTM array from Encores and Ulfberhts, IOW trickle down technology.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 27, 2020 17:09:17 GMT -5
A friend of mine was an adamant anti-subwoofer music fan. He had a very nice setup but I thought it lacked that LF rumble - what the audiophooles might call "body." He came to my house and listened to my 2-channel setup that featured a set of expensive Devore Orangutan speakers and a DIY subwoofer I built using an Aurasound 18-inch driver. I played some of his favorite quiet acoustic long-hair music for him.- violin and piano concertos. He was amazed at how much the sub added to the experience, even though you could not "tell" it was on unless you turned it off. Even with that sort of music, the subsonics were important. Most subwoofers are set up for home theater, which makes them entirely too hot for 2-channel music. This is also why I am an advocate for separate systems for the two purposes if possible. So Boomzilla, I recommend you don't give up. But if you Do give up, and if you decide to invest in new speakers, don't get hung up on the specs. Just buy something you like. With my Maggie/Rythmik system, I get the same feeling - I can't tell the sub is on until I turn it off. Then, a richness is gone. For 2 channel, my sub is not set to "thump" but rather to enrich. Low level but deep in response. I always say I "feather it in", and that's how it sounds. It's there, but not in your face. I find it most obvious when listening to stereo with Leland Sklar on bass, but also with Phil Lesh and Flea. Rich and deep bass. Mark
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Post by vcautokid on Jun 27, 2020 18:41:16 GMT -5
Anything synthesized can reach the basement. Most music is 40hz or above fundamentally. Even vinyl with your subsonic filter will make that all go away too. Acoustic music doesn't live much down there, but again if you are play electronically created music then yeah. Don't still really know why subwoofers aren't working here. 2 or more do the trick. Not speaking about the WAF thing. Not my wheelhouse. But still curious what the real difficulty is especially with great tools like REW and room correction software to help. Have you considered room treatment and analysis. People throw money into the equipment or speaker black hole only much later to find out their room was to blame. Had a friend do room treatment and proper eq, and his system sounds great. We blame the gear much and ignore the room.
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Post by rbk123 on Jun 27, 2020 19:09:20 GMT -5
Don’t worry, he will get them again in time. His carousel just keeps going round and round and round.
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Post by pedrocols on Jun 27, 2020 23:14:18 GMT -5
I've reached the end of my rope with subwoofers. I want some full-range speakers. Full-range, in my definition, having a -3dB anechoic response at 30 Hz. (or lower). I think that I've narrowed down the contenders to but two, but there are a LOT of speakers still out there that I'm unfamiliar with... I'm also not interested in buying used and having to possibly scrounge for repair parts should the used speakers break. New speakers I'm considering include the Tekton Double Impact models and the GoldenEar Triton 2+ models. Although the Double Impacts seem to be $1K cheaper, the GoldenEars can be bought at discount - the Tektons can't. What sound do I want? I'd like (but won't get) phase coherent. I'd like a smooth frequency response, but with very good dynamics. Think Thiels on steroids... So those are my criteria - and once again - NO USED MODELS. Thanks - BoomaDooma If you're ordering the Tektons mention you're a reviewer. On the Worldwide Tekton owner's group it was stated that staff informed customers that a reviewer had priority and was backing orders up. Just recieved my 2nd 4-10 and the order was quick. To me the wait is worth designed and assembled in America product though speakers are sourced not only from America but Europe. Wish you'd consider the Moabs boom. They're getting most hype at the moment. From what I see they use the more expensive flagship MTM array from Encores and Ulfberhts, IOW trickle down technology. I have never heard any Tekton speakers but based on reviews it seems to me they had become the flavor of the month type of speaker. I remember back when the Pendragons first came out EVERYBODY was praising them for that month to never heard people talking about them anymore which seems to be the trend here with these Tekton speakers. Additionally, there are numerous posts in other forums about the validity of the manufacture's claimed specs (which it isn't a big deal just saying). If you like them that is what is important to you and only you; the owner.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 23:20:30 GMT -5
If you're ordering the Tektons mention you're a reviewer. On the Worldwide Tekton owner's group it was stated that staff informed customers that a reviewer had priority and was backing orders up. Just recieved my 2nd 4-10 and the order was quick. To me the wait is worth designed and assembled in America product though speakers are sourced not only from America but Europe. Wish you'd consider the Moabs boom. They're getting most hype at the moment. From what I see they use the more expensive flagship MTM array from Encores and Ulfberhts, IOW trickle down technology. I have never heard any Tekton speakers but based on reviews it seems to me they had become the flavor of the month type of speaker. I remember back when the Pendragons first came out EVERYBODY was praising them for that month to never heard people talking about them anymore which seems to be the trend here with these Tekton speakers. Additionally, there are numerous posts in other forums about the validity of the manufacture's claimed specs (which it isn't a big deal just saying). If you like them that is what is important to you and only you; the owner. Yup, heard the accusation Tekton specs are exaggerated: www.disqus.social/2020/06/tekton-design-ulfberht-speaker.html
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 28, 2020 4:46:57 GMT -5
Well... I think I found a full range speaker I'd be happy with (the Revel Salon 2), but the cost would be a new wife... Back to "plan B." I keep hearing very positive things about the GoldenEar Reference speakers and very negative things about the Triton line midrange (where my budget lives). I also keep hearing that even the Tekton Double Impacts benefit from subwoofers (NOT what I was hoping for). So "plan C" is beginning to rear its ugly head. The road forks here. Down one path lies something along the lines of a Definitive Technology Supertower STS with its built-in, self-powered subwoofer. Down the other path is "keep my existing Emotiva T2 speakers and sell my Emotiva Airmotiv S15 subs (the world's greatest HT sub) and replace them with something more flat and suitable for music." Both options are roughly equivalent in price. In favor of the DefTechs, I've owned the brand before and liked them, and I've owned DefTech subs before (the Trinity and the super cube) and liked them as well. I'd assume that the STS' built-in sub would share the "brand voicing" with the DefTech sub line. The Mythos series is also one with a good WAF. In favor of the T2 speakers, they are dynamic and sound great in my room, lacking only deep bass. And as DYohn keeps preaching to me, picking the right tool for the job (in this case, dedicated subs for deep bass) is a better option than limiting the subwoofer placement to the locations suitable for best imaging. One of my only negatives about the T2 speakers, however, is their flat black finish. "Yawn" at best, and "yuck" for the majority of the time. No more black speakers for me EVER, thanks (and yet another reason not to go down the GoldenEar path). To be continued...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 6:11:46 GMT -5
Just a few misc thoughts. Apologies for the messed up line and word spacing. Tried to edit it but no go. That's why the Nut on the end of my name!
----- Never ever buy speakers with built in subs. You cannot move the subs for better sound. The 80Hz and down sounds (from the sub only) are not ideally in the same location as the mains.
----- I presume you do at least on occasion play music with below 80hz tones, as in a Double Bass 31-41Hz, Pipe Organ, 16Hz, Cello 65Hz, Fender Bass 41Hz, Bassoon 58Hz, Contrabassoon 29Hz, Clarinet/Conrtrabass Clarinet 73-37Hz, Bass Trombone 23Hz, Contrabass Tuba 29Hz, Grand Piano 27Hz, etc. Note these are the lowest fundamental tones and are usually (but not always) higher in most musical performances. However, I never want to skimp on reproducing what is recorded on the highest quality recordings. Your sub range sound always should be of deep extension, fast impact/sock, sharp detail, attack, control, sometimes these qualities are referred to as Low End Transient Response. What you don't want is low bass that is warm, heavy, loose, tubby, lean, etc.
----- Many high quality movie sound tracks have amazingly low and powerful bass. Don't miss out with a speaker that claims to be full range or has a built-in sub or a low performance add on sub. Reproduction of the 80-70Hz and lower need to be from a separate enclosure.
----- I recommend not using "stereo subs" or ones of different sizes. Cut your mains off at 80-70Hz and send the low bass to the sub(s). Do not have the mains reproducing above -3dB below the crossover to the subs. The subs do not need to be of the same brand as the mains. Buy the best sub(s) you can afford, don't skimp. My sub cost me about 70% of my 5 speakers. I have a 5.1 system in my fairly small condo living room. I lucked out with slight placement adjustments in a rear corner away from the rear wall and side wall. Many folks might have to EQ the sub when necessary. My amazing Emo surround speakers high on the rear wall make overhead sound very real. No need for Atmos.
----- A second sub is always recommended when possible. It will usually smooth out the low bass response throughout the room.
----- IMO the same sub(s) if high quality are fine for both music and movies. Just make sure you buy a sub(s) with a high power amp.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 6:48:23 GMT -5
PS: Maybe you follow my thinking for a very high quality main and sub(s) system, with out overlapping the sounds below 80-70Hz. The Tekton Double Impact speakers are very fine and super sensitive (efficient) speakers. However, with the proper sub(s) you don't need the full range model. I would go with the Tekton Impact Monitor and save $1000 per pair. They would need to be off the floor or on stands. Put that money toward the sub(s). I am super impressed with this Tekton Impact line, great choice for a number of reasons and very attractive price plus free shipping! www.tektondesign.com/impact-monitor.html
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 28, 2020 7:12:34 GMT -5
PS: Maybe you follow my thinking for a very high quality main and sub(s) system, with out overlapping the sounds below 80-70Hz. The Tekton Double Impact speakers are very fine and super sensitive (efficient) speakers. However, with the proper sub(s) you don't need the full range model. I would go with the Tekton Impact Monitor and save $1000 per pair. They would need to be off the floor or on stands. Put that money toward the sub(s). I am super impressed with this Tekton Impact line, great choice for a number of reasons and very attractive price plus free shipping! www.tektondesign.com/impact-monitor.htmlThe full size Double Impacts don't need a sub. IMHO
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Post by jackfish on Jun 28, 2020 7:16:51 GMT -5
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Post by repeetavx on Jun 28, 2020 10:26:30 GMT -5
So it seems to me that this thread totally discredits your RAIS article.
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Post by pedrocols on Jun 28, 2020 11:11:32 GMT -5
PS: Maybe you follow my thinking for a very high quality main and sub(s) system, with out overlapping the sounds below 80-70Hz. The Tekton Double Impact speakers are very fine and super sensitive (efficient) speakers. However, with the proper sub(s) you don't need the full range model. I would go with the Tekton Impact Monitor and save $1000 per pair. They would need to be off the floor or on stands. Put that money toward the sub(s). I am super impressed with this Tekton Impact line, great choice for a number of reasons and very attractive price plus free shipping! www.tektondesign.com/impact-monitor.htmlThe full size Double Impacts don't need a sub. IMHO Technically all speakers need and can benefit from a subwoofer. If you prefer them without that's a different approach and personal preference.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 28, 2020 11:30:19 GMT -5
So it seems to me that this thread totally discredits your RAIS article. I don't see how. RAIS was about the feasibility of using multiple inexpensive subs together. What I've now got is a matched pair of rather expensive subs designed exclusively for home theater. If I did have additional (and tonally mismatched) subs in the system, their contributions would probably alleviate some of the peaked response of the two home theater subs that I do have. In what way do you see the current situation as a repudiation of RAIS? I'm not seeing any connection at all.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 28, 2020 11:43:29 GMT -5
Temporary game plan (while I hoard my pennies and consider my options):
Run the Emotiva T2s full range pulled out into the room (minimizing bass and maximizing imaging) Run the two Airmotiv S15s also pulled out into the room and up on stands with their internal plate amps crossed over at the minimum 60 Hz.
This minimizes room effects and also minimizes overlap in the bass regions. With such a low crossover, the peak in the subs' frequency response will be minimized. If needed, the Dayton DSP-LF can be used to flatten the crossover region.
The sub stands will be on casters so they can be rolled back against the wall when not in use.
Not an ideal setup, but the best compromise I can work up until I get some wireless transmitters to use the subs near-field.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 11:55:21 GMT -5
Subs in any reasonable price range are generally available only in butt-ugly black. My Large sub is gorgeous. Satin black lacquer finish with rounded edges and a full size top of inlaid plexiglas. Black is beautiful!
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 28, 2020 12:21:23 GMT -5
Many manufacturers offer subwoofers in wood veneers. Check out Legacy Audio, PSA, Salk Sound, Bryston, even Klipsch...
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