|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jun 2, 2021 19:31:12 GMT -5
“HT is a deep hole from which few escape intact.” Not sure where your getting your statistics 📊 on this. That being said for sure any expensive sport like this can overtake your wallet if you spend first and ask questions later. $7000.00 for a moving coil cartridge!? ….Plenty of audiophile lunatics could easily give HT nuts a run for their money! I can only speak from my own personal experience, but my HT investment has been very cost effective for what I have spent to date. When I got serious about a surround system I planned and contemplated it for several years first, because I never believed that I could NOT achieve the very best that two and multi channel have to offer in a singular system.…..and yes I did escape intact. Actually I hope I never escape (having toooo much fun 🤩) |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Jun 2, 2021 23:03:00 GMT -5
That is a JUDGEMENT CALL on your part. I look at the insane Churn in the HT segment. Nothing like that exists in the Stereo part of the 'hobby'. Stereo is a fairly stable technology by comparison to HT where stuff goes obsolete on a regular cycle. I remember QS / SQ Matrix stuff from Sansui. And I built a DynaQuad setup which was spectacular with live recordings and MEH with studio stuff.
Than Dolby. THX (which Nobody has satisfactorly explained) and on and on. 5.1? 5.2 is better! But 7.1 is really good, too, and of course height and depth speakers. As it turns out, probably only about 10% to 15% of all 'investors' in this stuff have a proper space. And would therefore argueably be better served with a good Stereo. For any given budget below 'Profane', it seems stereo is a better value propsition. Got 3K$ to spend on speakers? Get a set of 7, including ceiling mount OR a really special pair of full-range? Get those 7 speakers with 7 channels of amplification.....Call it a possible KW output.
Sure, the MOST esoteric Stereo is at really awful price points. But it's STILL STEREO and can trace its roots back 60 years to the first Stereo gear. The same information for HT would require a 3D spider web of interrelations and a seperate Techno tree. I kind of feel sorry for someone WANTING a good HT setup. And starting from ZIP. Any advice on forums like this boils down to whatever the responder LIKES.
'Speaker X puts me right in the middle of the action'....And feel free to run 1.5kw of amp from a SINGLE 15 amp service along with the TV, Sat Dish receiver, DVD spinner and the processor, which may or may NOT be upgradeable after the next round of engineering.....
Anyway, rant over for now. I'd LOVE to see some numbers on satisfaction / cost / benefit (perceived) and upgrade cycle (time based) for HT guys. My system remains stable for years at a time. And while it is quite a reasonable (not a 'great') system, it also kills at movies.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,276
|
Post by KeithL on Jun 3, 2021 8:53:03 GMT -5
These days you can spend an astronomical amount of money on pretty much any hobby... if you choose to. But, as with most hobbies, you don't HAVE to spend a lot of money to get audio gear that can deliver an enjoyable experience...
Check out the price of a high end wrist watch lately... Or, if you haven't looked lately, check out the price of an expensive bicycle... And let's not even talk about the prices of cars... (You can easily spend more for fancy trim on a new truck than the price of an expensive phono cartridge.) However it is also worth noting that the performance of low cost audio gear has increased dramatically in recent years. Always remember to compare prices in terms of "adjusted dollars". A "$10 table radio" in 1930 cost you a week's pay. Whereas a cheap portable player today, which sounds much better, only costs what you now earn in a few hours. And I can stream high quality music all month for $20 (which is less than the price of ten gallons of gasoline at today's prices). Back when I was a kid, that same ten gallons of gas cost about $3, and that $3 wouldn't have bought me a single CD or vinyl album. “HT is a deep hole from which few escape intact.” Not sure where your getting your statistics 📊 on this. That being said for sure any expensive sport like this can overtake your wallet if you spend first and ask questions later. $7000.00 for a moving coil cartridge!? ….Plenty of audiophile lunatics could easily give HT nuts a run for their money! I can only speak from my own personal experience, but my HT investment has been very cost effective for what I have spent to date. When I got serious about a surround system I planned and contemplated it for several years first, because I never believed that I could NOT achieve the very best that two and multi channel have to offer in a singular system.…..and yes I did escape intact. Actually I hope I never escape (having toooo much fun 🤩) |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jun 3, 2021 9:43:08 GMT -5
These days you can spend an astronomical amount of money on pretty much any hobby... if you choose to. But, as with most hobbies, you don't HAVE to spend a lot of money to get audio gear that can deliver an enjoyable experience...
Check out the price of a high end wrist watch lately... Or, if you haven't looked lately, check out the price of an expensive bicycle... And let's not even talk about the prices of cars... (You can easily spend more for fancy trim on a new truck than the price of an expensive phono cartridge.) However it is also worth noting that the performance of low cost audio gear has increased dramatically in recent years. Always remember to compare prices in terms of "adjusted dollars". A "$10 table radio" in 1930 cost you a week's pay. Whereas a cheap portable player today, which sounds much better, only costs what you now earn in a few hours. And I can stream high quality music all month for $20 (which is less than the price of ten gallons of gasoline at today's prices). Back when I was a kid, that same ten gallons of gas cost about $3, and that $3 wouldn't have bought me a single CD or vinyl album. Of course the over the top cartridge is just sighting an example of what SOME folks do these days in pursuit of Nirvana. …..And yes! (adjusted dollars) Source material and really GOOD sounding basic systems are more cost effective than ever I think. You had me recalling .38 cents a gallon for PREMIUM back in ‘72. With my crappy little Fiat, I ran all over God’s creation for around 3 dollars a week. Later when I needed a V8 to drag a trailer, all of that went out the window! |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Jun 3, 2021 14:08:44 GMT -5
Keith, you are right on quite a number of points. But here in CA? Mid-4$s per gallon is not an illusion. The original Acura Legand was aspirational to me and an astronomical 25 Large.
Todays Accord FOR THE SAME number of dollars is better in nearly every measurable. Power? Economy? Safety? Brakes? And you'd need a ruler to see which was larger.....
Find an inflation calculator and be surprised at the 'adjusted cost'......
But my point is the 'churn' that people get caught up in. The 'march of progress' in many facets of existance is not an illusion, but HT is designed to
change frequently. When looking at DVD / BlueRay players, for example, I must be certain they support PCM output either RCA (sure) or Optical....
And while many facets ARE better today, and even dollar 4 dollar......It's tough to justify a multi-channel system in a mediocre space (you have NO control over THAT!) while buying
a better 2 channel system might be less subject to 'outdated' protocols and computer this or that. What really Lit My Fuse was nearly 165 PAGES of people discussing DIRAC. I mean, really!
Even if everyones complanint took only 1 page? That's north of 160 people. Start doing the math and you'll see either few people needing multiple pages ro a lot at lesser number of pages.
Either way? Only a few seem to get it right than leave it alone.
A LONG TIME ago? I bought an Ortofon LM20 cartridge for my stereo. It was unique im that it plugged into the end of the tonearm WITHOUT headshell. I had to make other adjustments but the final result? WOW.
Better than Pickering. Or Shurer or anything else I could reference. Some friends had a SOTA with some neat cart, but I think my Ortofon sounded better. I think it was 100+, a LOT for me at that time......
As for media cost? Perfect example of selling ONE THING over and over. I still like a DISC IN MY hot little hands.
Spend a couple hundred on a SEIKO and be done with it. My Orange Monster is good for decades yet....
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jun 3, 2021 15:33:13 GMT -5
Keith, you are right on quite a number of points. But here in CA? Mid-4$s per gallon is not an illusion. The original Acura Legand was aspirational to me and an astronomical 25 Large. Todays Accord FOR THE SAME number of dollars is better in nearly every measurable. Power? Economy? Safety? Brakes? And you'd need a ruler to see which was larger..... Find an inflation calculator and be surprised at the 'adjusted cost'...... But my point is the 'churn' that people get caught up in. The 'march of progress' in many facets of existance is not an illusion, but HT is designed to change frequently. When looking at DVD / BlueRay players, for example, I must be certain they support PCM output either RCA (sure) or Optical.... And while many facets ARE better today, and even dollar 4 dollar......It's tough to justify a multi-channel system in a mediocre space (you have NO control over THAT!) while buying a better 2 channel system might be less subject to 'outdated' protocols and computer this or that. What really Lit My Fuse was nearly 165 PAGES of people discussing DIRAC. I mean, really! Even if everyones complanint took only 1 page? That's north of 160 people. Start doing the math and you'll see either few people needing multiple pages ro a lot at lesser number of pages. Either way? Only a few seem to get it right than leave it alone. A LONG TIME ago? I bought an Ortofon LM20 cartridge for my stereo. It was unique im that it plugged into the end of the tonearm WITHOUT headshell. I had to make other adjustments but the final result? WOW. Better than Pickering. Or Shurer or anything else I could reference. Some friends had a SOTA with some neat cart, but I think my Ortofon sounded better. I think it was 100+, a LOT for me at that time...... As for media cost? Perfect example of selling ONE THING over and over. I still like a DISC IN MY hot little hands. Spend a couple hundred on a SEIKO and be done with it. My Orange Monster is good for decades yet.... Ahhhhh….Leonski! Seriously where ARE you going with all of this?? (lost me) You’re not a fan of HT it appears and your “churn” can happen with any expensive sport. So….What?? |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 3, 2021 18:12:40 GMT -5
Keith, you are right on quite a number of points. But here in CA? Mid-4$s per gallon is not an illusion. The original Acura Legand was aspirational to me and an astronomical 25 Large. Todays Accord FOR THE SAME number of dollars is better in nearly every measurable. Power? Economy? Safety? Brakes? And you'd need a ruler to see which was larger..... Find an inflation calculator and be surprised at the 'adjusted cost'...... But my point is the 'churn' that people get caught up in. The 'march of progress' in many facets of existance is not an illusion, but HT is designed to change frequently. When looking at DVD / BlueRay players, for example, I must be certain they support PCM output either RCA (sure) or Optical.... And while many facets ARE better today, and even dollar 4 dollar......It's tough to justify a multi-channel system in a mediocre space (you have NO control over THAT!) while buying a better 2 channel system might be less subject to 'outdated' protocols and computer this or that. What really Lit My Fuse was nearly 165 PAGES of people discussing DIRAC. I mean, really! Even if everyones complanint took only 1 page? That's north of 160 people. Start doing the math and you'll see either few people needing multiple pages ro a lot at lesser number of pages. Either way? Only a few seem to get it right than leave it alone. A LONG TIME ago? I bought an Ortofon LM20 cartridge for my stereo. It was unique im that it plugged into the end of the tonearm WITHOUT headshell. I had to make other adjustments but the final result? WOW. Better than Pickering. Or Shurer or anything else I could reference. Some friends had a SOTA with some neat cart, but I think my Ortofon sounded better. I think it was 100+, a LOT for me at that time...... As for media cost? Perfect example of selling ONE THING over and over. I still like a DISC IN MY hot little hands. Spend a couple hundred on a SEIKO and be done with it. My Orange Monster is good for decades yet.... Ahhhhh….Leonski! Seriously where ARE you going with all of this?? (lost me) You’re not a fan of HT it appears and your “churn” can happen with any expensive sport. So….What?? If I were to summarize, I’d say his point may be that with HT the target is still moving 5.1, 7.2, 9.1.6, DD, DD+, Atmos, DTS, ES, X, Pro ( edit: SD,HD, 720P, 1080i, 1080p, 2160p HDR,DV, HLG …) — and the churn is ‘required’ if you want to be current. With stereo, the churn is driven by your own obsession with the hobby, and how much you like to tinker or perfect … the absolute sound. |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Jun 13, 2021 1:50:35 GMT -5
Capacitors act like batteries... storing power the amp is not using so it can be used to handle a sudden demand for power, a drum kick for instance. The idea is that if you make the power supply able to deliver just above the AVERAGE need for power, the excess can be stored so it can punch when it needs to without needing a larger power supply. The unused excess is stored (to a limit) and it can be used instantaneously. After the drum hit or whatever dynamic impulse that wasy needed, the power supply is delivering enough power to maintain the current demand, so the excess charges up the capacitors again... then, anotehr drum hit. Think of it like this. The power supply is a hose, providing a stream of water. On average, it delivers more water than you need, and there are some buckets (capacitors) that store the overflow. Once the buckets are full, they are full and excess water (power) is thrown away. Now you need a quick pulse of water... you can take it from the main hose, but if you needed more than the hose can provide, the buckets make up the difference. As long as your quick peak demands are spaced out a bit, you're good. But you're often wasting water. But what if you had a power supply that instead of delivering a steady amount of power that was the average for the music, it was able to dynamically respond to the demand for power. TO use the hose analogy, the hose would be designed to be able to respond directly and quickly to demand, dynamically, whether that demand is high, or low. You only get the water you need. The power supply in the recent Emotiva amps, a switched mode power supply, works like this... they are capable of responding dynamically to need, varying the on-tap power in real-time according to demand. I'm grossly over simplifying it, but I think it comes pretty close to answering the question. I hope! You'll see that Bob Carver did just that. My original (actually kind of gen 1.1) amp, the M400t had such a PS and I think it was even 2 rails (voltages...maybe 3?) But it basically turned the power supply on and off IN TIME TO THE MUSIC. My amp at 200x2 @8 had a 15 amp fuse! And didn't run warm. Go figger. It was that INSTANT current supply ability. BUT? The downside was amp had little or no 'dynamic' power and at full tilt would DIM THE LIGHTS on that same circuit.....In time to the music! The 't' stands for T-mod and was the result of a challenge to duplicate the sound signiture of a 'target' amplifier which he did and the challengers were UNABLE to tell his amp from the target.... My M400t had a CHOKE in it the size of your fist. Think of it as a big coil of wire....NOT a double coil, like a transformer or even like the autoformer used by Mcintosh.... The EMO PS does NOT vary 'power' but rather available voltage using RAILS, just like Carver did 30+ years ago. It is either called class 'H' or class 'G'.......I'm a little iffy on that point. And the water reservoir is small, but since the PS runs at a very high frequency, it is refilled repidly. And don't forget the PS ONLY refills the reservoir (caps) when the voltage of the cap drops below the PS voltage......So in some cases, the caps get recharged only a FRACTION of the time of the puwer 'cycle'.... |
|
