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Post by LuisV on Apr 4, 2021 7:56:06 GMT -5
Forgot I ordered these... lmfao...  Secret is not to order things when drinking  You are so right.... lmfao |
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Post by LuisV on Apr 4, 2021 18:43:54 GMT -5
Been listening to the Bifrost since early Saturday morning... and to be honest... this is going to be difficult as the Bifrost is indeed extremely enjoyable. Except, going by memory, the more natural tones of the Ares in NOS mode... the Ares in OS mode vs the Bifrost... hard to say... it seems that I'm not missing anything with the Bifrost is the system. I'm not sitting there thinking nor saying the Bifrost needs to be turned off and the Ares back on. Prior to connecting the Bifrost, I listened to the Ares in OS mode with the slow filter for a few days, so I'm finding it interesting, that I'm not longing for the Ares... my ears are pleased with the Bifrost. Maybe it's the synergy with the rest of my gear, but I'm actually interested in playing songs outside of the playlist I wanted to keep for this comparison. From memory, the Ares in NOS mode sounds more refined, natural, warmer... the Bifrost is more "alive", not harsh, simply more entertaining... toe tapping enjoyment. I'm actually finding this interesting as the last time I did such a test was when I was looking for a new pair of speakers to replace my 20+ year old B&W 804s. Over the course of a month, I auditioned several speakers in my room. I would live with a particular pair of speakers for a few days and switched back to the B&Ws, yes, the other speakers were enjoyable, but when I heard the B&Ws.... I simply smiled. In the end the B&Ws stayed in my room and I sent SVS Ultra towers, Ascend Acoustic towers and others packing. I figured the same would happen hear, but so far... it seems to be a toss up between the Ares in OS mode vs the Bifrost. Going to live with the Bifrost for a few days and then switch to the Ares in NOS mode. This is difficult...
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Post by chops on Apr 4, 2021 18:52:12 GMT -5
Why don't you run both DAC's at the same time (coax to one, Toslink to the other), and switch between them via the inputs on the Freya+? That's how I plan on doing it, but I'll be running USB (hopefully into both at the same time if I can via the Raspberry Pi 4). And if you have any concerns about coax vs Toslink, you can simply switch them between DAC's and continue.
Trying to compare sound from memory is near impossible, whether it was last week or just an hour ago.
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Post by LuisV on Apr 4, 2021 19:34:42 GMT -5
You nailed it on the head... it's simply too hard to do via memory and figured toslink vs coax would introduce sound differences. I might use my Pi instead and use USB; I simply didn't want to crawl under my desk and tackle that rats nest to free the Pi. |
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Post by chops on Apr 4, 2021 20:15:39 GMT -5
Well with the Node 2i, at least if you have any concerns in sound differences, you can just swap the Toslink and coax at the DAC's within a few seconds.
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Post by LuisV on Apr 5, 2021 11:59:37 GMT -5
Forgot I ordered these... lmfao... Snap, crackle and pop... one of the Psvanes are bad... oh well, at least they looked good...  Back to the GEs and Raytheon / Baldwins...  |
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Post by LuisV on Apr 5, 2021 13:04:41 GMT -5
Why don't you run both DAC's at the same time (coax to one, Toslink to the other), and switch between them via the inputs on the Freya+? That's how I plan on doing it, but I'll be running USB (hopefully into both at the same time if I can via the Raspberry Pi 4). And if you have any concerns about coax vs Toslink, you can simply switch them between DAC's and continue. Trying to compare sound from memory is near impossible, whether it was last week or just an hour ago. Took a few mins to untangle the power supply and USB cables, set RoPieee to wireless and then connected the Pi to both DACs... awesome idea! Time to get down to business....  |
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Post by LuisV on Apr 6, 2021 7:22:13 GMT -5
Preliminary impressions... the Ares in NOS mode has more emphasis in the midrange, with the Bifrost having a more even sound signature throughout the frequency range. For example, based on a friend's recommendation, I played The Girl from Ipanema from Oscar Peterson's We get Requests, although dead center, the keyboard has less emphasis, not "in front" of you, where the bassist on the right has equal emphasis and is therefore easier to pick up via the Ares. When playing through the Bifrost, the keyboards are front and center with the bassist taking a slightly less forward role and therefore an appearance that it's placement is deeper into the soundstage. You can still hear the bassist clearly; however, it's not as equal of a presentation as the centered keyboardist... hope that makes sense.
More to come...
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 6, 2021 8:49:59 GMT -5
You might want to check the specifications on the Ares for a bit of insight. In general NOS (non-oversampling) DACs, especially when using "slow rolloff filters", tend to roll off the high end... When playing 44k sample rate files, in a NOS DAC, a slow filter MUST start rolling off high frequencies inside the audible range.
This tends to de-emphasize the very high frequencies... which makes them sound "smoother and mellower"...
But, technically, it is merely acting like a tone control and "turning the treble down a tiny bit".
(And many people seem to prefer to interpret this as something far more mystical in nature...  )
Please note that I'm not suggesting that you purchase a product based on specifications rather than what you hear. However there are often distinct penalties to not looking at that sort of details. I've actually seen people pay hundreds of dollars for "special cables that sounded mellow".
When they could have achieved the exact same result in sound by adding a fifty cent capacitor someplace else instead. Or using a tone control to simply adjust the sound the way they want it. (Yet some audiophiles would rather pay $500 for a cable than be seen turning a tone control.)
Preliminary impressions... the Ares in NOS mode has more emphasis in the midrange, with the Bifrost having a more even sound signature throughout the frequency range. For example, based on a friend's recommendation, I played The Girl from Ipanema from Oscar Peterson's We get Requests, although dead center, the keyboard has less emphasis, not "in front" of you, where the bassist on the right has equal emphasis and is therefore easier to pick up via the Ares. When playing through the Bifrost, the keyboards are front and center with the bassist taking a slightly less forward role and therefore an appearance that it's placement is deeper into the soundstage. You can still hear the bassist clearly; however, it's not as equal of a presentation as the centered keyboardist... hope that makes sense. More to come... |
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Post by LuisV on Apr 6, 2021 11:38:22 GMT -5
You might want to check the specifications on the Ares for a bit of insight. In general NOS (non-oversampling) DACs, especially when using "slow rolloff filters", tend to roll off the high end... When playing 44k sample rate files, in a NOS DAC, a slow filter MUST start rolling off high frequencies inside the audible range.
This tends to de-emphasize the very high frequencies... which makes them sound "smoother and mellower"...
But, technically, it is merely acting like a tone control and "turning the treble down a tiny bit".
(And many people seem to prefer to interpret this as something far more mystical in nature... ) Please note that I'm not suggesting that you purchase a product based on specifications rather than what you hear. However there are often distinct penalties to not looking at that sort of details. I've actually seen people pay hundreds of dollars for "special cables that sounded mellow".
When they could have achieved the exact same result in sound by adding a fifty cent capacitor someplace else instead. Or using a tone control to simply adjust the sound the way they want it. (Yet some audiophiles would rather pay $500 for a cable than be seen turning a tone control.) Call it tone control, distortion, rolled off high frequencies, technical voodoo... if it sounds better to the end user, that's all that matters. Personally, I don't buy based on specs, I purchase based on what sounds good to my ears and no, just cause something is designed well and tests perfectly, doesn't mean it will sound good... nevermind sound good to everyone. The Denafrips DACs do not have a user selectable filter option in NOS mode; they are only available in OS mode. Correct, some snake oil cables use specific windings or other technical voodoo to tame highs, no question there and yes, I stay away from using cables as tone controls. That being said, if someone has the means to purchase snake oil and they obtain gratification from doing so, allow them to enjoy it... no need to indicate the technical reason why they should or shouldn't or why it could or couldn't sound good. My buddy drives a $80k car, mine is $24k, I don't shame him because a car is a car nor does he shame me because mine is cheaper. We have different hobbies, different priorities and invest insuch in different ways. His reasoning is not wrong and neither is mine... just two different approaches. Same holds true with audio... does it matter that someone obtains audio nirvana with a $10 bluetooth speaker or a $50k system? No, it does not matter... all that matters is that the user is obtaining enjoyment... period. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 12:28:46 GMT -5
You might want to check the specifications on the Ares for a bit of insight. In general NOS (non-oversampling) DACs, especially when using "slow rolloff filters", tend to roll off the high end... When playing 44k sample rate files, in a NOS DAC, a slow filter MUST start rolling off high frequencies inside the audible range.
This tends to de-emphasize the very high frequencies... which makes them sound "smoother and mellower"...
But, technically, it is merely acting like a tone control and "turning the treble down a tiny bit".
(And many people seem to prefer to interpret this as something far more mystical in nature... )
Please note that I'm not suggesting that you purchase a product based on specifications rather than what you hear. However there are often distinct penalties to not looking at that sort of details. I've actually seen people pay hundreds of dollars for "special cables that sounded mellow".
When they could have achieved the exact same result in sound by adding a fifty cent capacitor someplace else instead. Or using a tone control to simply adjust the sound the way they want it. (Yet some audiophiles would rather pay $500 for a cable than be seen turning a tone control.)
Preliminary impressions... the Ares in NOS mode has more emphasis in the midrange, with the Bifrost having a more even sound signature throughout the frequency range. For example, based on a friend's recommendation, I played The Girl from Ipanema from Oscar Peterson's We get Requests, although dead center, the keyboard has less emphasis, not "in front" of you, where the bassist on the right has equal emphasis and is therefore easier to pick up via the Ares. When playing through the Bifrost, the keyboards are front and center with the bassist taking a slightly less forward role and therefore an appearance that it's placement is deeper into the soundstage. You can still hear the bassist clearly; however, it's not as equal of a presentation as the centered keyboardist... hope that makes sense. More to come... Thanks for that KeithL, Is that what these filters are? For DSD, PCM, etc?  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 23:01:00 GMT -5
You might want to check the specifications on the Ares for a bit of insight. In general NOS (non-oversampling) DACs, especially when using "slow rolloff filters", tend to roll off the high end... When playing 44k sample rate files, in a NOS DAC, a slow filter MUST start rolling off high frequencies inside the audible range.
This tends to de-emphasize the very high frequencies... which makes them sound "smoother and mellower"...
But, technically, it is merely acting like a tone control and "turning the treble down a tiny bit".
(And many people seem to prefer to interpret this as something far more mystical in nature... )
Please note that I'm not suggesting that you purchase a product based on specifications rather than what you hear. However there are often distinct penalties to not looking at that sort of details. I've actually seen people pay hundreds of dollars for "special cables that sounded mellow".
When they could have achieved the exact same result in sound by adding a fifty cent capacitor someplace else instead. Or using a tone control to simply adjust the sound the way they want it. (Yet some audiophiles would rather pay $500 for a cable than be seen turning a tone control.)
Thanks for that KeithL, Is that what these filters are? For DSD, PCM, etc? And these PCM filters:  |
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Post by chops on Apr 7, 2021 17:26:54 GMT -5
Preliminary impressions... the Ares in NOS mode has more emphasis in the midrange, with the Bifrost having a more even sound signature throughout the frequency range. For example, based on a friend's recommendation, I played The Girl from Ipanema from Oscar Peterson's We get Requests, although dead center, the keyboard has less emphasis, not "in front" of you, where the bassist on the right has equal emphasis and is therefore easier to pick up via the Ares. When playing through the Bifrost, the keyboards are front and center with the bassist taking a slightly less forward role and therefore an appearance that it's placement is deeper into the soundstage. You can still hear the bassist clearly; however, it's not as equal of a presentation as the centered keyboardist... hope that makes sense. More to come... I'm listening to that same Oscar Peterson album and track as I type this, through my HiBy R5 Saber and BGVP DM8 in-ear monitors. From what I'm hearing, it lines up more of what you described with the Ares, with the bass pretty much even with the piano. The drums on the left which spread out to just right of center and just barely behind the piano and bass. I'll have to listen to it on my system at some point and see what it sounds like. And yes, the way you described it made perfect sense. |
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Post by LuisV on Apr 7, 2021 17:31:45 GMT -5
I'm listening to that same Oscar Peterson album and track as I type this, through my HiBy R5 Saber and BGVP DM8 in-ear monitors. From what I'm hearing, it lines up more of what you described with the Ares, with the bass pretty much even with the piano. The drums on the left which spread out to just right of center and just barely behind the piano and bass. I'll have to listen to it on my system at some point and see what it sounds like. And yes, the way you described it made perfect sense. Cool... glad it made sense... I'm leaning towards the Bifrost. Although the Ares sounds warmer, it's tilts the midrange up a bit; where the Bofrost is more even tonally. Both are great DACs... |
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Post by chops on Apr 7, 2021 17:40:12 GMT -5
You might want to check the specifications on the Ares for a bit of insight. In general NOS (non-oversampling) DACs, especially when using "slow rolloff filters", tend to roll off the high end... When playing 44k sample rate files, in a NOS DAC, a slow filter MUST start rolling off high frequencies inside the audible range.
This tends to de-emphasize the very high frequencies... which makes them sound "smoother and mellower"...
But, technically, it is merely acting like a tone control and "turning the treble down a tiny bit".
I've actually seen people pay hundreds of dollars for "special cables that sounded mellow".
When they could have achieved the exact same result in sound by adding a fifty cent capacitor someplace else instead.
If you or anyone can hear any difference between those DAC filters, then you must have truly golden ears or are just imagining it. I've had several high-end DAC's over the years with these selectable filters, and not once have I ever heard a difference between any of them on any system. Even on my portable system with its four selectable filters, no matter which filter I choose and no matter what music I'm listening to, absolutely zero difference at all between them. And I'm not even going to get into the whole cable/snake oil thing as I don't agree with that either. Cables do in fact make a difference, and choosing the right cables is all part of the system. It's called synergy. And cables are a lot better than throwing a random capacitor in somewhere in the chain or resorting to tone controls. There's a hundred different ways of achieving similar results, only some ways are better and more consistent than others. |
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Post by chops on Apr 7, 2021 17:44:52 GMT -5
I'm listening to that same Oscar Peterson album and track as I type this, through my HiBy R5 Saber and BGVP DM8 in-ear monitors. From what I'm hearing, it lines up more of what you described with the Ares, with the bass pretty much even with the piano. The drums on the left which spread out to just right of center and just barely behind the piano and bass. I'll have to listen to it on my system at some point and see what it sounds like. And yes, the way you described it made perfect sense. Cool... glad it made sense... I'm leaning towards the Bifrost. Although the Ares sounds warmer, it's tilts the midrange up a bit; where the Bofrost is more even tonally. Both are great DACs... Well like I just got done saying above, synergy is everything. If your system favors towards the leaner/brighter side of things, the Ares might be the better choice. However, if your system leans a bit more the warmer, laid back side, you may want to stick with the Bifrost. I know I'm quite content with mine. |
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Post by LuisV on Apr 7, 2021 18:04:02 GMT -5
In Going Nowhere, at around 2:34, you hear the drummer towards the left, then crash a high hat on the right, then back left, as he drums across the drums, you can hear and follow him pan across the sound stage. Same at around 4:20 and again at 5:11. The Bifrost has more attack, bite to the drums; has a hint of glare. The Ares in NOS mode sounds more "real"; less glare. The Ares in OS mode sounds just like the Bifrost... I can't tell the difference and I actually forgot for a moment, which DAC I was listening to.
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Post by LuisV on Apr 7, 2021 18:42:26 GMT -5
I was hoping that one walked all over the other, but that's just not the case... they are both great DACs with strength's and weakness... maybe I'll sell both and buy a Denafrips Pontus or Schiit Gungnir. I need a break.... time for a few or these...  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 23:29:27 GMT -5
You might want to check the specifications on the Ares for a bit of insight. In general NOS (non-oversampling) DACs, especially when using "slow rolloff filters", tend to roll off the high end... When playing 44k sample rate files, in a NOS DAC, a slow filter MUST start rolling off high frequencies inside the audible range.
This tends to de-emphasize the very high frequencies... which makes them sound "smoother and mellower"...
But, technically, it is merely acting like a tone control and "turning the treble down a tiny bit".
(And many people seem to prefer to interpret this as something far more mystical in nature... )
Please note that I'm not suggesting that you purchase a product based on specifications rather than what you hear. However there are often distinct penalties to not looking at that sort of details. I've actually seen people pay hundreds of dollars for "special cables that sounded mellow".
When they could have achieved the exact same result in sound by adding a fifty cent capacitor someplace else instead. Or using a tone control to simply adjust the sound the way they want it. (Yet some audiophiles would rather pay $500 for a cable than be seen turning a tone control.)
Preliminary impressions... the Ares in NOS mode has more emphasis in the midrange, with the Bifrost having a more even sound signature throughout the frequency range. For example, based on a friend's recommendation, I played The Girl from Ipanema from Oscar Peterson's We get Requests, although dead center, the keyboard has less emphasis, not "in front" of you, where the bassist on the right has equal emphasis and is therefore easier to pick up via the Ares. When playing through the Bifrost, the keyboards are front and center with the bassist taking a slightly less forward role and therefore an appearance that it's placement is deeper into the soundstage. You can still hear the bassist clearly; however, it's not as equal of a presentation as the centered keyboardist... hope that makes sense. More to come... I purchased the SMSL M400 purely off of "ranking" specifications and not by what reviewers hear. The SMSL M400 according to the published list I researched was tied w/ number 1. Mind you, most of these spec wonders are supposedly only measurable by equipment outside the audible range of humans. I'll say this now, this is the very best my system has ever sounded. Yesterday and today I got to sit down and really listen for some time after going to coax from the Bluesound Node 2i w/ Qobuz - I chose a HR album from Norah Jones at 24/192khz. Since I hadn't played w/ the filters I selected "slow". I kept having to pick my jaw up. I am in total love w/ my now fidelity. I can't imagine things getting much better than this... but I need to do something w/ the subwoofers located on one side .... I can't live w/ knowing they are there on the left and not evenly distributed. Call it OCD whatever .... just can't do it long term. I'm actually thinking of getting rid of my center entertainment stand and placing both subs in the middle ...... dunno but back to 2 channel. If anyone is interested in the "specs" this is the review that sealed the deal for me personally: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-m400-balanced-usb-mqa-dac-review.13732/My Tekton Ulfberhts <-- which are now seemingly happy in system totality or system wide integration never sounded so so so "hifi". There's no need to light candles in the room as the listener melts like wax... |
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Post by LuisV on Apr 8, 2021 8:46:12 GMT -5
Awesome, glad it's working out for ya... I just might have to throw the SMSL M400 into the mix...
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