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Post by Ghumbs on Jul 25, 2009 1:45:02 GMT -5
Can I get on the preorder list for the DAC with iPod bypass yet? ;D ;D ;D
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ray
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Ordered the new XMC-1.....well I am on the list!!
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Post by ray on Jul 25, 2009 10:19:28 GMT -5
Thankfully, some one else posted (I am sitting here debating if I should admit that I'm so stupid I don't know what this sleek looking new device is for. In a desperate attempt to try and hide my ignorance I Googled DAC and learned it stands for Digital Analog Converter... so now what?) I admit. I am stupid. WHAT is this for? and furthmore.....do i need it? thanks
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 25, 2009 10:26:55 GMT -5
Thankfully, some one else posted (I am sitting here debating if I should admit that I'm so stupid I don't know what this sleek looking new device is for. In a desperate attempt to try and hide my ignorance I Googled DAC and learned it stands for Digital Analog Converter... so now what?) I admit. I am stupid. WHAT is this for? and furthmore.....do i need it? thanks That was me who posted that. strindl tried to explain it to me on the phone and it still isn't really clear in my mind. I suspect that is why there was no response. Too complicated to type everything.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jul 25, 2009 10:47:57 GMT -5
A DAC is a computer chip. It takes digital 1's and 0's that come off of a CD or other source, and converts them into a small voltage. The voltage moves up and down in exactly the same way that the speaker cones move in and out. It's not strong enough to drive the speakers directly, that's what an amplifier is for.
A turntable does not need a DAC, because the movement of the needle creates tiny voltages that get amplified to become the speaker movements. But a CD (or SACD, or blu-ray movie, etc) doesn't have grooves like this on it. Instead, the CD has something more like Moorse code on it. Something needs to read that code, and convert it into a voltage that the speakers can use. That's a DAC. So a DAC is like the guys who would listen to the Moorse code messages and write down the words so other people could understand it.
A CD has two sets of data on it, one for each speaker. A DAC such as this has two outputs corresponding to the two inputs. Most receivers have DACs that take 8 digital inputs and produce 7.1 analog outputs from it.
Not all DACs are created equal, and the voltages coming out of them are very close, but not identical. Some DACs sound better than others. Emotiva is talking about taking the DAC that is built into the ERC-1 and putting it in its own box, so it can be used with other digital sources, like a computer or other CD players. The idea is that it will be better than the DAC already built into the computer or other CD player.
Any clearer?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 25, 2009 10:56:26 GMT -5
Thankfully, some one else posted (I am sitting here debating if I should admit that I'm so stupid I don't know what this sleek looking new device is for. In a desperate attempt to try and hide my ignorance I Googled DAC and learned it stands for Digital Analog Converter... so now what?) I admit. I am stupid. WHAT is this for? and furthmore.....do i need it? thanks That was me who posted that. strindl tried to explain it to me on the phone and it still isn't really clear in my mind. I suspect that is why there was no response. Too complicated to type everything. DAC stands for digital-analog-converter. It is used by every digital device to change (convert) the digital information that is stored on a CD or DVD or Blu Ray or computer into something we can actually experience. The purpose of a stand-alone DAC is so the user has more flexibility and control over their listening or viewing environment, or so they can use a higher quality device that can generate "better" sounding or looking analog signals than the DAC that comes built into whatever you use as a player. If your source has digital outputs, you can use an external DAC to feed your system. Any source machine that can play digital material and that has RCA outputs has a DAC built into it. But it might not sound as good as it could since it can get very expensive to build really good ones. Using a good quality stand-alone DAC to convert the digital output from your player into a high-quality analog signal can make a lower-level CD player sound like a high-end machine, for example. Does that help at all, or further muddy the waters?
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 25, 2009 10:56:40 GMT -5
A DAC is a computer chip. It takes digital 1's and 0's that come off of a CD or other source, and converts them into a small voltage. The voltage moves up and down in exactly the same way that the speaker cones move in and out. It's not strong enough to drive the speakers directly, that's what an amplifier is for. A turntable does not need a DAC, because the movement of the needle creates tiny voltages that get amplified to become the speaker movements. But a CD (or SACD, or blu-ray movie, etc) doesn't have grooves like this on it. Instead, the CD has something more like Moorse code on it. Something needs to read that code, and convert it into a voltage that the speakers can use. That's a DAC. So a DAC is like the guys who would listen to the Moorse code messages and write down the words so other people could understand it. A CD has two sets of data on it, one for each speaker. A DAC such as this has two outputs corresponding to the two inputs. Most receivers have DACs that take 8 digital inputs and produce 7.1 analog outputs from it. Not all DACs are created equal, and the voltages coming out of them are very close, but not identical. Some DACs sound better than others. Emotiva is talking about taking the DAC that is built into the ERC-1 and putting it in its own box, so it can be used with other digital sources, like a computer or other CD players. The idea is that it will be better than the DAC already built into the computer or other CD player. Any clearer? Wow, great and clear explanation! Only one question - is Emo planning on using the same DAC that is in the ERC-1 as a standalone DAC or are they building a new one? (there's too many three-letter acronyms flying around this lounge!). Edit: oh never mind.. I guess I should have read the original post in this thread. It will be similar to the one in the ERC-1. IGI (I get it).
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 25, 2009 11:03:37 GMT -5
The idea is that it will be better than the DAC already built into the computer or other CD player. Any clearer? But it might not sound as good as it could since it can get very expensive to build really good ones. Using a good quality stand-alone DAC to convert the digital output from your player into a high-quality analog signal can make a lower-level CD player sound like a high-end machine, for example. Does that help at all, or further muddy the waters? So I would use a stand alone DAC to bypass the internal DAC for the same reason I am bypassing the amp in my RX-V663 to use my XPA-5? If so, what would I hear in A/B testing?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 25, 2009 11:08:44 GMT -5
[ So I would use a stand alone DAC to bypass the internal DAC for the same reason I am bypassing the amp in my RX-V663 to use my XPA-5? If so, what would I hear in A/B testing? Yes, exactly. You use the digital output from your player and not the RCA outputs, and that bypasses the DAC built into the machine. And yes, if you connect the RCA outs from a player to one input on your preamp and the RCA outs from the external DAC to another input and play a disc, then you could A/B compare the two and see if it makes any difference to you.
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 25, 2009 16:24:28 GMT -5
You use the digital output from your player and not the RCA outputs, and that bypasses the DAC built into the machine. Which machine? Isn't there a DAC in my Oppo Blu Ray player and my RX-V663 receiver?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 25, 2009 16:44:40 GMT -5
You use the digital output from your player and not the RCA outputs, and that bypasses the DAC built into the machine. Which machine? Isn't there a DAC in my Oppo Blu Ray player and my RX-V663 receiver? Yes, there is a DAC built into both of those. Using a good external DAC allows you to bypass both of them: digital audio out from disc player TO external DAC, analog out from DAC to analog in on receiver. This means the digital to analog conversion is happening outside both the player and the receiver.
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 25, 2009 17:17:55 GMT -5
Yes, there is a DAC built into both of those. Using a good external DAC allows you to bypass both of them: digital audio out from disc player TO external DAC, analog out from DAC to analog in on receiver. This means the digital to analog conversion is happening outside both the player and the receiver. So now I am confused/concerned.... If I am using HDMI (digital) from Oppo to Yamaha then I am bypassing the superior DAC in the Oppo and using the inferior DAC in the Yamaha. No?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 25, 2009 17:48:32 GMT -5
Yes, there is a DAC built into both of those. Using a good external DAC allows you to bypass both of them: digital audio out from disc player TO external DAC, analog out from DAC to analog in on receiver. This means the digital to analog conversion is happening outside both the player and the receiver. So now I am confused/concerned.... If I am using HDMI (digital) from Oppo to Yamaha then I am bypassing the superior DAC in the Oppo and using the inferior DAC in the Yamaha. No? Yes, assuming the DAC in the Yamaha IS inferior to that in the Oppo. For music, if you must use the Oppo as your CD transport, you'd use an optical or coax digital out from that machine to the external DAC, and then analog RCA to the Yamaha's CD input. Or, if you think the DAC is better in the Oppo, use analog RCA out from the Oppo (without an external DAC.) For movies you'll still use HDMI.
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 25, 2009 17:52:28 GMT -5
Or, if you think the DAC is better in the Oppo, use analog RCA out from the Oppo (without an external DAC.) For movies you'll still use HDMI. For the moment, at least, I've spent enough money. I am playing all of my music from my Squeezebox. I only use my Oppo to play DVD's. I'm just trying to make sure I have the connections set up optimally.
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 26, 2009 11:25:23 GMT -5
Yes, assuming the DAC in the Yamaha IS inferior to that in the Oppo. I was a bit confused with my posts yesterday. I was thinking about the Oppo upconverting which I know is superior. I don't know if the Oppo has a better DAC than my Yamaha and I don't know how to tell. It doesn't sound like it matters, though because I'm obviously going to use HDMI for DVDs and Blue Ray so I get what I get I guess. My other main sources are the two DVRs and my Squeezebox. I don't think those have DACs in them so they would have to use the one in my receiver. Does it sound like I have this figured out right? Or am I babbling nonsense?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 26, 2009 11:38:51 GMT -5
Yes, assuming the DAC in the Yamaha IS inferior to that in the Oppo. I was a bit confused with my posts yesterday. I was thinking about the Oppo upconverting which I know is superior. I don't know if the Oppo has a better DAC than my Yamaha and I don't know how to tell. It doesn't sound like it matters, though because I'm obviously going to use HDMI for DVDs and Blue Ray so I get what I get I guess. My other main sources are the two DVRs and my Squeezebox. I don't think those have DACs in them so they would have to use the one in my receiver. Does it sound like I have this figured out right? Or am I babbling nonsense? You're on the right track. In general, if you use a digital signal path between two components, you are hearing the DAC output from the last component in the chain. If you are using the HDMI cable from the BRD player to the receiver you are hearing the DAC in your receiver. If you use the HDMI or optical out from your DVR, you are also hearing the DAC in your receiver. If you use the RCA outs, you are hearing the DAC in the DVR. The Squeezebox has a pretty good DAC built into it, actually. If you are using the RCA outputs from the Squeezebox, then you are hearing the DAC inside the Squeezebox. I don't know what kind of digital output the Duet has, but on my SB3 it's a coax output. If you use that, then it's the DAC inside the receiver.
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 26, 2009 12:10:41 GMT -5
The Squeezebox has a pretty good DAC built into it, actually. If you are using the RCA outputs from the Squeezebox, then you are hearing the DAC inside the Squeezebox. I don't know what kind of digital output the Duet has, but on my SB3 it's a coax output. If you use that, then it's the DAC inside the receiver. Crap! So I have been screwing up without knowing it. I am using Toslink from my Squeezebox receiver to my Yamaha receiver, thereby bypassing the Squeezebox DAC. I thought using all digital connections was best whenever possible. This is all so complicated.
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Post by strindl on Jul 26, 2009 13:08:54 GMT -5
nahh...you haven't screwed up. I use the digital outs on my duets , well all except the one in the bedroom that plugs into a 15 year old Pioneer receiver without any digital inputs. The DAC in the duet receiver is decent, but the ones in my Integra and Outlaw preamps are better. You can try it both ways but I would think going with the digital input into your yamaha would give you better results.
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Post by floridaguy on Jul 26, 2009 14:19:12 GMT -5
The DAC in the duet receiver is decent, but the ones in my Integra and Outlaw preamps are better. But I don't have an Integra or Outlaw preamp. I wouldn't think that Yamaha would be as good.
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Post by roadrunner on Jul 26, 2009 17:37:35 GMT -5
The DAC in the duet receiver is decent, but the ones in my Integra and Outlaw preamps are better. But I don't have an Integra or Outlaw preamp. I wouldn't think that Yamaha would be as good. I suspect that with the various pieces of equipment that you are using that there is not likely to much difference which ever one you opt to use. The problem (if you care to call it that) is easily solved. Just try the various options available and stick with the solution that sounds best to you. Don't sweat it, it may well be that you have been using the best option all along. Historically, the receiver has had the better quality DAC when compared to the source components. This is a "rule of thumb" and there are many exceptions if you are using "high-end" source gear. Let your ears guide you... go with what sounds best to your ears and don't look back. ;D ;D No need to over analyze things... especially when you are happy with how everything sounds. Trust yourself a little more.
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akai
Minor Hero
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Post by akai on Jul 31, 2009 21:46:49 GMT -5
Forgot to mention that the front plate should have info on what signal 44.1, 48, etc. info (just like the DacMagic). Quite useful when you want to verify the signal from source.
Thanks,
mP
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