KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 20, 2022 9:17:24 GMT -5
Are you not happy with the way the LRS sound now? I think the Maggies go down to about 50 hz so maybe you wouldn't need to split the signal, just set the crossover on the sub. Something like what the Emo SE8 that I just got would be handy. That one lets you input the signal from the amp to the sub and pass it through to the mains with a choice of frequency cutoff filters (you can select 60hz, 80hz or 100hz) to pass through. monkumonku The assertion I heard was once you ONLY send 50hz and above to the maggies and they rest to the sub, the less work now pushed to the maggies (i.e. no bass signal below 50hz) make them sound better. I LOVE the way they sound now, but always the audio alchemistic looking to tweak, I was wondering if anyone had that experience. That is the way things normally work with a sub... With the Maggies, considering the size of the panels, and the wavelengths involved... At frequencies that low, a dipole panel of that size cannot produce significant low bass output... If you do the calculations it's sort of obvious that the panel cannot move nearly as much air as a bunch of big dynamic drivers or a single big sealed sub. (The panels just plain don't move in and out very far.) So, if you feed those frequencies to the panel, it will simply wave around, and use up a lot of amplifier power doing so... The extra power demand will put more strain on both your amplifier and the speaker... And asking the panels to make excessive motion will cause them to produce more distortion at the frequencies they're good at delivering. It is worth noting that, unless you listen to really good pipe organ recordings, or movie sound tracks, MOST MUSIC HAS NO SIGNIFICANT CONTENT BELOW 50 HZ ANYWAY. You may get a little at those lower frequencies but no instruments have significant output at frequencies that low. And even most pipe organ recordings don't even cover the 32 Hz pipe. (And that's especially true for vinyl... where, for various reasons, high level signals at very low frequencies are... problematic... ) |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 20, 2022 10:12:45 GMT -5
There are a few more things I would add about "open baffle subwoofers". With relatively high frequencies, as the driver moves in and out, it "pushes and pulls the air", and this produces a "moving wave" which is then "launched" into the room in a specific direction. This is why we discuss things like directionality and dispersion patterns. (And we often visualize this something like the beam coming from a spotlight or floodlight.) However, with very low frequencies, whose wavelength is much larger than the diameter of the driver... In a sealed cabinet, or even a tuned cabinet, you get what's called "room pressurization". In oversimplified terms this means that, when the driver moves outward, the inside of the box gets a tiny bit bigger, and the volume of the room gets a tiny bit smaller, and vice versa. And this effect is not at all directional. (And we often visualize it as if the speaker was a sphere that changes slightly in size as the driver move sin and out.) HOWEVER, with an open baffle subwoofer, we are relying SOLELY on the first effect. As far as pressurization is concerned, when the driver moves forward, it pushes air from the front, and pulls air from the back... And, as long as the wavelength of the frequency involved is longer than the path around the baffle, the pressure in the room doesn't change significantly. (So, in essence, we get to hear "air moving" but NOT "a change in pressure".) As a result of this, with a typical open-baffle speaker, you need a lot of driver area, moving a significant amount, to produce a significant output level. And, as it works out, you need to apply a LOT of EQ to get it to work. In fact, in many cases, and "open baffle sub" requires an EQ boost of 12 dB PER OCTAVE - ALL THE WAY TO ITS BOTTOM LIMIT. And, BEYOND THAT, because you are listening to "a wavefront rather than a change in pressure" LOCATION AND DIRECTION BECOME SIGNIFICANT ISSUES. So, for example, with a sealed sub, at 30 Hz, the output is almost perfectly non-directional. But, with an open baffle sub, at 30 Hz, you may hear nice bass NEXT TO the speaker, and no bass at all directly in front of or behind it. And this may be very different, depending on the speaker's design, and the size and shape of the room, and where the speaker is located in the room. In other words... You already know that Magneplanars are quite fussy about room acoustics, room placement, and listening location... And you should assume that all of these issues will be SIGNIFICANTLY more significant with an open baffle subwoofer... And, as a broad generalization, they tend to work best in very large rooms, and where the listening position is directly to the side of the open baffle subwoofer. It seems obvious that the "V-shaped panel" is intended to add some directionality to the pressure wave... They're using that "V" to create a "faster moving wavefront" - much the way a folded ribbon tweeter works - to enable those drivers to move more air, faster, in a narrower direction. But, even so, this effect is going to be limited at the frequencies involved. Look at what Magnepan is doing with the "30.7 For Condos". The low end is an open baffle dipole with eight ~7" woofers in a V-shaped panel for each channel. They use DSP and a dedicated amp to tune response to the room/placement. I've heard it, and it sounds as good or better than a 30.7, and is said to extend toward the 20's, though a sub is still needed for LFE-type dynamics in the bottom octave or below 20Hz. GR OB dipoles based on 12" drivers are said to be a great match for Maggies. But ... how will two or three 12" drivers sound between 40-100Hz (or higher) vs the eight 7" drivers? They'll measure fine ... but how will they sound compared to a Maggie bass panel or the eight small woofers? Nobody has been specific about how high the "for condos" woofers cross to the midrange, but given a 3.7 crosses around 300Hz ... safe bet they're running those dipole woofers up that high. And given the footprint of that V-woofer, you can pretty easily place it to integrate the phase with the mid/tweeter panels. I have no idea if there's some "secret sauce" in that V-woofer design, but if there isn't, one could pretty easily build it. p.s. at the audio show in TX in August Wendell demo'd the V-woofer with the LRS+. At one point he inadvertently played the woofer full range with the LRS+ turned off .... and for a moment he didn't even notice! So he intentionally let some people hear it, and it was said to be amazing how the V-woofer performed full range. + leonski ttocs Agreed ... all of that ... but if we're talking about frequencies above 20Hz the large Maggie panels are pushing air more or less like a dipole cone speaker array, be it three 12" drivers or eight 7" drivers. The difference - other than possibly the total actual surface area - is that the cones are capable of longer XMax (excursion) than the Maggie panel. Note also that the V-woofer the point of the V aims in the direction of the listener. The V design is really like a W-frame dipole but without the extra side wings ... because it's assumed one of the sides will be close to a wall ... and in the case of the Maggie "for condos" they wanted to make it as small a footprint as possible, I guess. The W-frame or H-frame seem to perform the same from what I've read, with the former just saving space. So let's see ... my first Maggies were Tympany 1D's and I used a small Outlaw sub below 40Hz. Then I got the 3.7's and added the large Outlaw sub, so front and rear of the room. I have a pair of LRS (not plus) in the bedroom and they sound great. If I were to put a sub under them, yeah I'd cross it at 50Hz. I have found with the 3.7 that crossing to a sub above 50Hz measures fine but sounds bloated. I expect the LRS would be that way too. But still ... I actually have heard the big 30.7 in a big room (like 20'x30'), and then a few months later I heard the For Condos prototype with the V-woofers in a room about 14'x25'. The V-woofers sounded better in that smaller somewhat treated room than the 30.7 sounded in that large untreated room. |
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Oct 20, 2022 11:43:01 GMT -5
I think you are correct. I also think the Maggie’s with open baffle subs and sealed subs just for LFE would be perfect for home theater. The Maggies with OB Subs would be hard to beat for music. The XMC-2 perfect for such a setup. Look at what Magnepan is doing with the "30.7 For Condos". The low end is an open baffle dipole with eight ~7" woofers in a V-shaped panel for each channel. They use DSP and a dedicated amp to tune response to the room/placement. I've heard it, and it sounds as good or better than a 30.7, and is said to extend toward the 20's, though a sub is still needed for LFE-type dynamics in the bottom octave or below 20Hz. GR OB dipoles based on 12" drivers are said to be a great match for Maggies. But ... how will two or three 12" drivers sound between 40-100Hz (or higher) vs the eight 7" drivers? They'll measure fine ... but how will they sound compared to a Maggie bass panel or the eight small woofers? Nobody has been specific about how high the "for condos" woofers cross to the midrange, but given a 3.7 crosses around 300Hz ... safe bet they're running those dipole woofers up that high. And given the footprint of that V-woofer, you can pretty easily place it to integrate the phase with the mid/tweeter panels. I have no idea if there's some "secret sauce" in that V-woofer design, but if there isn't, one could pretty easily build it. p.s. at the audio show in TX in August Wendell demo'd the V-woofer with the LRS+. At one point he inadvertently played the woofer full range with the LRS+ turned off .... and for a moment he didn't even notice! So he intentionally let some people hear it, and it was said to be amazing how the V-woofer performed full range. + leonski ttocs It is obvious that Magnepan believes reducing the low frequency responsibility of Maggies is a positive move, otherwise they would not design subwoofers that crossover so high. My 3.7i's sound more transparent with an 80Hz crossover than they do with lower crossover points. I was very surprised that would be the case, as I thought the crossover should be set closer to 40Hz so the big Maggies could do more. Wendell Diller said the new "Dynamic Subwoofers" could play down to 10Hz, but at what output level I do not know. As you indicate, it is not likely the new subs can provide the dynamics necessary for LFE, but they may work well for music. With a processor like the XMC-2 you could use the Magnepan subs for music and add sealed subs for LFE. However, in my system, the subwoofers integrate exceptionally well, so I am not sure if the new Magnepan subs could improve the sound or not. |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 20, 2022 12:47:17 GMT -5
Look at what Magnepan is doing with the "30.7 For Condos". The low end is an open baffle dipole with eight ~7" woofers in a V-shaped panel for each channel. They use DSP and a dedicated amp to tune response to the room/placement. I've heard it, and it sounds as good or better than a 30.7, and is said to extend toward the 20's, though a sub is still needed for LFE-type dynamics in the bottom octave or below 20Hz. GR OB dipoles based on 12" drivers are said to be a great match for Maggies. But ... how will two or three 12" drivers sound between 40-100Hz (or higher) vs the eight 7" drivers? They'll measure fine ... but how will they sound compared to a Maggie bass panel or the eight small woofers? Nobody has been specific about how high the "for condos" woofers cross to the midrange, but given a 3.7 crosses around 300Hz ... safe bet they're running those dipole woofers up that high. And given the footprint of that V-woofer, you can pretty easily place it to integrate the phase with the mid/tweeter panels. I have no idea if there's some "secret sauce" in that V-woofer design, but if there isn't, one could pretty easily build it. p.s. at the audio show in TX in August Wendell demo'd the V-woofer with the LRS+. At one point he inadvertently played the woofer full range with the LRS+ turned off .... and for a moment he didn't even notice! So he intentionally let some people hear it, and it was said to be amazing how the V-woofer performed full range. + leonski ttocs It is obvious that Magnepan believes reducing the low frequency responsibility of Maggies is a positive move, otherwise they would not design subwoofers that crossover so high. My 3.7i's sound more transparent with an 80Hz crossover than they do with lower crossover points. I was very surprised that would be the case, as I thought the crossover should be set closer to 40Hz so the big Maggies could do more. Wendell Diller said the new "Dynamic Subwoofers" could play down to 10Hz, but at what output level I do not know. As you indicate, it is not likely the new subs can provide the dynamics necessary for LFE, but they may work well for music. With a processor like the XMC-2 you could use the Magnepan subs for music and add sealed subs for LFE. However, in my system, the subwoofers integrate exceptionally well, so I am not sure if the new Magnepan subs could improve the sound or not. The V design woofer is not really called a "sub" by Magnepan. Maybe they'll get there with other models, but the module prototyped for the For Condos speaker and shown recently with the LRS+ is intended as a woofer ... it clearly plays way up into woofer range like 200-300Hz, because the For Condos only has a 1'x4' panel that contains the midrange. Based on several conversations with folks that have some direct knowledge ... no ... not high output at 20Hz let alone 10. |
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Oct 20, 2022 13:14:28 GMT -5
It is obvious that Magnepan believes reducing the low frequency responsibility of Maggies is a positive move, otherwise they would not design subwoofers that crossover so high. My 3.7i's sound more transparent with an 80Hz crossover than they do with lower crossover points. I was very surprised that would be the case, as I thought the crossover should be set closer to 40Hz so the big Maggies could do more. Wendell Diller said the new "Dynamic Subwoofers" could play down to 10Hz, but at what output level I do not know. As you indicate, it is not likely the new subs can provide the dynamics necessary for LFE, but they may work well for music. With a processor like the XMC-2 you could use the Magnepan subs for music and add sealed subs for LFE. However, in my system, the subwoofers integrate exceptionally well, so I am not sure if the new Magnepan subs could improve the sound or not. The V design woofer is not really called a "sub" by Magnepan. Maybe they'll get there with other models, but the module prototyped for the For Condos speaker and shown recently with the LRS+ is intended as a woofer ... it clearly plays way up into woofer range like 200-300Hz, because the For Condos only has a 1'x4' panel that contains the midrange. Based on several conversations with folks that have some direct knowledge ... no ... not high output at 20Hz let alone 10. Yep. When Wendell told Jason Stoddard of Schiit Audio, on the video I was watching, that they could play to 10Hz I was amazed and hopeful, but apparently the laws of physics still hold sway. It is instructive that the new "woofer" is made with small standard drivers rather than a Magnepan panel. My subs, which are a push-pull sealed design with 12" paper cone drivers, play above 200Hz. I wonder how much quicker the new Magnepan subs can be. |
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Oct 20, 2022 13:42:06 GMT -5
There will always be compromises. Don't expect perfect sound because it ain't happening.
|
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Oct 20, 2022 14:06:00 GMT -5
I think you are correct. I also think the Maggie’s with open baffle subs and sealed subs just for LFE would be perfect for home theater. The Maggies with OB Subs would be hard to beat for music. The XMC-2 perfect for such a setup. Look at what Magnepan is doing with the "30.7 For Condos". The low end is an open baffle dipole with eight ~7" woofers in a V-shaped panel for each channel. They use DSP and a dedicated amp to tune response to the room/placement. I've heard it, and it sounds as good or better than a 30.7, and is said to extend toward the 20's, though a sub is still needed for LFE-type dynamics in the bottom octave or below 20Hz. GR OB dipoles based on 12" drivers are said to be a great match for Maggies. But ... how will two or three 12" drivers sound between 40-100Hz (or higher) vs the eight 7" drivers? They'll measure fine ... but how will they sound compared to a Maggie bass panel or the eight small woofers? Nobody has been specific about how high the "for condos" woofers cross to the midrange, but given a 3.7 crosses around 300Hz ... safe bet they're running those dipole woofers up that high. And given the footprint of that V-woofer, you can pretty easily place it to integrate the phase with the mid/tweeter panels. I have no idea if there's some "secret sauce" in that V-woofer design, but if there isn't, one could pretty easily build it. p.s. at the audio show in TX in August Wendell demo'd the V-woofer with the LRS+. At one point he inadvertently played the woofer full range with the LRS+ turned off .... and for a moment he didn't even notice! So he intentionally let some people hear it, and it was said to be amazing how the V-woofer performed full range. + leonski ttocs Yes....The 'Secret Sauce' is NOT to run the subs / Bass drivers over maybe 60hz to 80hz...... Certainly 100hz is too high.....Localization becomes an issue, perhaps. Also? Are you running the main panel driver IN TANDEM with this? A recipe for various distortions and phase issues..... As a general rule? Number of ways tends to be problematic in Less Than WELL worked out / executed designs.... Don't forget? if you cross at 100hz, the FIRST octave is 200hz at maybe only 6, 12, 18 OR 24db down. Each slope brings its own good / bad......Than you need (or should have) a complimentary slope / crossover to the main speakers so you can sum-flat THRU the crossover...... The idea of crossing the panels at some frequency to lower the amount of 'work' they do DOES seem to have some merit. I do so with a 12db/octave crossover above the panels advertised lower limit..... |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 21, 2022 15:36:59 GMT -5
A case for Bass Management ... Hans Zimmer Angels & Demons sound track, first cut 160Bpm ... plenty of 30Hz ... bottoms out at 26.4Hz!
|
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Oct 21, 2022 19:12:06 GMT -5
The Disc which came with my sub?
Not onlly does it have the modern organ classic 'In The News'......but also the Saint Sans Symphony #3 'With Organ'.....
This is a bass monster with the lowest bass fundamental i've ever heard in music. My HSU WILL just barely paly it, but not at higher
amplitude......If I turned it up? Something would 'give' and I simply don't have the $$$ for stereo AND home repairs......
I think that was the resutl of a 32foot pipe while ON EARTH....we have 2x @64feet which works out to 8hz........
|
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Oct 22, 2022 16:46:32 GMT -5
There are a few more things I would add about "open baffle subwoofers". With relatively high frequencies, as the driver moves in and out, it "pushes and pulls the air", and this produces a "moving wave" which is then "launched" into the room in a specific direction. This is why we discuss things like directionality and dispersion patterns. (And we often visualize this something like the beam coming from a spotlight or floodlight.) However, with very low frequencies, whose wavelength is much larger than the diameter of the driver... In a sealed cabinet, or even a tuned cabinet, you get what's called "room pressurization". In oversimplified terms this means that, when the driver moves outward, the inside of the box gets a tiny bit bigger, and the volume of the room gets a tiny bit smaller, and vice versa. And this effect is not at all directional. (And we often visualize it as if the speaker was a sphere that changes slightly in size as the driver move sin and out.) HOWEVER, with an open baffle subwoofer, we are relying SOLELY on the first effect. As far as pressurization is concerned, when the driver moves forward, it pushes air from the front, and pulls air from the back... And, as long as the wavelength of the frequency involved is longer than the path around the baffle, the pressure in the room doesn't change significantly. (So, in essence, we get to hear "air moving" but NOT "a change in pressure".) As a result of this, with a typical open-baffle speaker, you need a lot of driver area, moving a significant amount, to produce a significant output level. And, as it works out, you need to apply a LOT of EQ to get it to work. In fact, in many cases, and "open baffle sub" requires an EQ boost of 12 dB PER OCTAVE - ALL THE WAY TO ITS BOTTOM LIMIT. And, BEYOND THAT, because you are listening to "a wavefront rather than a change in pressure" LOCATION AND DIRECTION BECOME SIGNIFICANT ISSUES. So, for example, with a sealed sub, at 30 Hz, the output is almost perfectly non-directional. But, with an open baffle sub, at 30 Hz, you may hear nice bass NEXT TO the speaker, and no bass at all directly in front of or behind it. And this may be very different, depending on the speaker's design, and the size and shape of the room, and where the speaker is located in the room. In other words... You already know that Magneplanars are quite fussy about room acoustics, room placement, and listening location... And you should assume that all of these issues will be SIGNIFICANTLY more significant with an open baffle subwoofer... And, as a broad generalization, they tend to work best in very large rooms, and where the listening position is directly to the side of the open baffle subwoofer. It seems obvious that the "V-shaped panel" is intended to add some directionality to the pressure wave... They're using that "V" to create a "faster moving wavefront" - much the way a folded ribbon tweeter works - to enable those drivers to move more air, faster, in a narrower direction. But, even so, this effect is going to be limited at the frequencies involved. Agreed ... all of that ... but if we're talking about frequencies above 20Hz the large Maggie panels are pushing air more or less like a dipole cone speaker array, be it three 12" drivers or eight 7" drivers. The difference - other than possibly the total actual surface area - is that the cones are capable of longer XMax (excursion) than the Maggie panel. Note also that the V-woofer the point of the V aims in the direction of the listener. The V design is really like a W-frame dipole but without the extra side wings ... because it's assumed one of the sides will be close to a wall ... and in the case of the Maggie "for condos" they wanted to make it as small a footprint as possible, I guess. The W-frame or H-frame seem to perform the same from what I've read, with the former just saving space. So let's see ... my first Maggies were Tympany 1D's and I used a small Outlaw sub below 40Hz. Then I got the 3.7's and added the large Outlaw sub, so front and rear of the room. I have a pair of LRS (not plus) in the bedroom and they sound great. If I were to put a sub under them, yeah I'd cross it at 50Hz. I have found with the 3.7 that crossing to a sub above 50Hz measures fine but sounds bloated. I expect the LRS would be that way too. But still ... I actually have heard the big 30.7 in a big room (like 20'x30'), and then a few months later I heard the For Condos prototype with the V-woofers in a room about 14'x25'. The V-woofers sounded better in that smaller somewhat treated room than the 30.7 sounded in that large untreated room. QUESTION? Running 3.7s full range WITH a sub? If so? THERE is your bloat. Or? Whatever floats your Bloat! Cutting the mains BELOW the 50hz low pass? Leave a gap and let it 'fill in' or as they say.......'Sum Flat'.....thru the passband. My 40hz down to the sub and 50hz up to the mains leaves a crisp bass which goes pretty deep.....and is still musical without bloat. When I had the sub on the OTHER side of the room.......my DEN was a helmholtz and could not be sat in when music was playing. HUGE one-note bass and a throbbing in your ears at that frequency. With NO OTHER adjustments than moving the sub maybe 14 or so feet to behind the RH speaker? Problem solved. A room of 14' x 25' is 'small'? That's 350 sqft and with a 9 foot ceiling, over 3000 cubic feet. Not HUGE, but certainly not small, either. Crossovers are NOT BRICK WALL..... so a 50hz crossover is.......anywhere from 6db to 24db per octave above OR below.....depending on if it is a high or low pass filter......1 octave? either 25hz going down or 100hz UP..... Factor in the 'normal' slope of the driver as run full range. My panels are listed as mid-30s somewhere lower limit.....But I'm unclear if that is 3db down.....or 6db down or MORE........Add that to the
crossover induced slope....... |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 23, 2022 7:14:13 GMT -5
leonski I agree it was not optimal to run the 3.7's full range and add the sub below 50Hz, but I didn't see a good way to do a high pass with the other considerations of how I'm sending the L+R bass to the subs and how I'm using the L+R for bass management. But ... I decided to try a Harrison Labs high pass filter in line with the signal path to each 3.7. I can do that without affecting the separate path that feeds the L/R DWM's and the subs through a miniDSP. So I'm going to try a 30Hz HPF and see how it goes. I have a HUGE peak at 40Hz so it will probably flatten some of that too ... less work for Dirac. I'll do before and after measurements and post them ... probably Wednesday. Meanwhile ... measurement-wise and after a day of listening, my latest Dirac calibration is the best yet! Note: VLFE is subs-only; MLFE the sub output is off and LFE is sent to the large fronts (which feed the subs through the separate path described above). The bass management bug is evident with the center, surround and back measurements. This is with Psychoacoustic Smoothing.  Here's what things look like without Dirac. Solid lines are 3.7+DWM+Subs; Dashed lines 3.7+DWM No Subs; Orange Line Subs Only left channel LPF 50Hz LR48. Variable Smoothing.  |
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Oct 23, 2022 11:36:07 GMT -5
leonski I agree it was not optimal to run the 3.7's full range and add the sub below 50Hz, but I didn't see a good way to do a high pass with the other considerations of how I'm sending the L+R bass to the subs and how I'm using the L+R for bass management. But ... I decided to try a Harrison Labs high pass filter in line with the signal path to each 3.7. I can do that without affecting the separate path that feeds the L/R DWM's and the subs through a miniDSP. So I'm going to try a 30Hz HPF and see how it goes. I have a HUGE peak at 40Hz so it will probably flatten some of that too ... less work for Dirac. I'll do before and after measurements and post them ... probably Wednesday. Meanwhile ... measurement-wise and after a day of listening, my latest Dirac calibration is the best yet! Note: VLFE is subs-only; MLFE the sub output is off and LFE is sent to the large fronts (which feed the subs through the separate path described above). The bass management bug is evident with the center, surround and back measurements. This is with Psychoacoustic Smoothing. View AttachmentHere's what things look like without Dirac. Solid lines are 3.7+DWM+Subs; Dashed lines 3.7+DWM No Subs; Orange Line Subs Only left channel LPF 50Hz LR48. Variable Smoothing. View AttachmentMarc, Can you post the Dirac curve? |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 23, 2022 11:58:47 GMT -5
leonski I agree it was not optimal to run the 3.7's full range and add the sub below 50Hz, but I didn't see a good way to do a high pass with the other considerations of how I'm sending the L+R bass to the subs and how I'm using the L+R for bass management. But ... I decided to try a Harrison Labs high pass filter in line with the signal path to each 3.7. I can do that without affecting the separate path that feeds the L/R DWM's and the subs through a miniDSP. So I'm going to try a 30Hz HPF and see how it goes. I have a HUGE peak at 40Hz so it will probably flatten some of that too ... less work for Dirac. I'll do before and after measurements and post them ... probably Wednesday. Meanwhile ... measurement-wise and after a day of listening, my latest Dirac calibration is the best yet! Note: VLFE is subs-only; MLFE the sub output is off and LFE is sent to the large fronts (which feed the subs through the separate path described above). The bass management bug is evident with the center, surround and back measurements. This is with Psychoacoustic Smoothing. View AttachmentHere's what things look like without Dirac. Solid lines are 3.7+DWM+Subs; Dashed lines 3.7+DWM No Subs; Orange Line Subs Only left channel LPF 50Hz LR48. Variable Smoothing. View AttachmentMarc, Can you post the Dirac curve? The first picture was with Dirac .... flat target curve for all speakers and the subs. The rise in the center, surrounds and backs is from the bass management bug. They cross at 110, 100 and 40 respectively.  |
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Oct 23, 2022 12:15:50 GMT -5
Marc, Can you post the Dirac curve? The first picture was with Dirac .... flat target curve for all speakers and the subs. The rise in the center, surrounds and backs is from the bass management bug. They cross at 110, 100 and 40 respectively. View AttachmentSorry, I wasn't clear. I was interested in the graph generated by Dirac so I could compare it to the REW graph you posted. |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 23, 2022 12:21:04 GMT -5
The first picture was with Dirac .... flat target curve for all speakers and the subs. The rise in the center, surrounds and backs is from the bass management bug. They cross at 110, 100 and 40 respectively. View AttachmentSorry, I wasn't clear. I was interested in the graph generated by Dirac so I could compare it to the REW graph you posted. Like this? L/R channels as measured by Dirac, flat target curve, and of course a pretty flat predicted result.  |
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Oct 23, 2022 12:30:12 GMT -5
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was interested in the graph generated by Dirac so I could compare it to the REW graph you posted. Like this? L/R channels as measured by Dirac, flat target curve, and of course a pretty flat predicted result. View AttachmentYes. If I am interpreting correctly REW shows that Dirac has minimal effect below 125Hz, other than smoothing the response. It does not seem to reduce the output level of the subs. Agree? |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 23, 2022 12:40:27 GMT -5
Like this? L/R channels as measured by Dirac, flat target curve, and of course a pretty flat predicted result. View AttachmentYes. If I am interpreting correctly REW shows that Dirac has minimal effect below 125Hz. Agree? When Dirac measures the L/R there's a huge 10-12db Peak at 40Hz. I have a flat target curve with the curtains set just below 20Hz on the left and 15KHz on the right. The reason I set it lower than 20 on the left is that experience tells me Dirac sometimes misbehaves if I get too close to the lower response limit of the subs. The Dirac corrected response as measured in REW for the L/R is then pretty flat down to about 22Hz where it starts to roll off. Maybe this is a little clearer ... just the L/R channels as measured by REW without Dirac (dashed), and with a Dirac flat target (solid). Variable Smoothing.  |
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Oct 23, 2022 12:59:39 GMT -5
Yes. If I am interpreting correctly REW shows that Dirac has minimal effect below 125Hz. Agree? When Dirac measures the L/R there's a huge 10-12db Peak at 40Hz. I have a flat target curve with the curtains set just below 20Hz on the left and 15KHz on the right. The reason I set it lower than 20 on the left is that experience tells me Dirac sometimes misbehaves if I get too close to the lower response limit of the subs. The Dirac corrected response as measured in REW for the L/R is then pretty flat down to about 22Hz where it starts to roll off. Maybe this is a little clearer ... just the L/R channels as measured by REW without Dirac (dashed), and with a Dirac flat target (solid). Variable Smoothing. View AttachmentThanks, I see it now. I have been using the HK/Limage setup without Dirac pending repair on one of my subs and it sounds fantastic. Obviously Dirac handles distance settings, but how do you handle distance settings without Dirac with your Rooze setup? |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 23, 2022 17:03:19 GMT -5
When Dirac measures the L/R there's a huge 10-12db Peak at 40Hz. I have a flat target curve with the curtains set just below 20Hz on the left and 15KHz on the right. The reason I set it lower than 20 on the left is that experience tells me Dirac sometimes misbehaves if I get too close to the lower response limit of the subs. The Dirac corrected response as measured in REW for the L/R is then pretty flat down to about 22Hz where it starts to roll off. Maybe this is a little clearer ... just the L/R channels as measured by REW without Dirac (dashed), and with a Dirac flat target (solid). Variable Smoothing. View AttachmentThanks, I see it now. I have been using the HK/Limage setup without Dirac pending repair on one of my subs and it sounds fantastic. Obviously Dirac handles distance settings, but how do you handle distance settings without Dirac with your Rooze setup? Now THAT is a question I struggled with for over a year! If I wasn't using Dirac I could use REW to look at the impulse responses, and I would know which peak to use as the primary for distance and ignore the others. I could enter the Distances right in the processor (roughly 1ms per foot) and tweak until it was perfect. Same issue for those who use the up-firing "Dolby Enabled" Atmos speakers. But with Dirac, it can easily be fooled into using a weaker but earlier peak as the reference for the distance, and that would make the distance wrong by anywhere from one to three milliseconds. So ... first thing I realized was with the speakers 45 degrees to the wall in the Rooze setup, the tweeters had to be on the edge closest to the wall so there's as little as possible difference between the actual location of the tweeter and the reflection. In my case now that's less than a foot (i.e. less than 1ms). Then there was the issue of some of the sound from the rear wave dispersing around enough to be seen by Dirac, and having it flip the polarity of the speaker. That was a big problem and for some time every time I did a Dirac calibration I had to reverse the speaker wires after. Okay so, I added the 2ft wood baffles to the leading edges of the speakers - the edges aiming at the MLP - and they made it harder for the rear wave to get around and also blocked reflections of the rear waves from opposite speakers which were causing imaging issues. Like I said, I chased this a long time! I even used temporary absorbers placed across the edge of each speaker like a T to block the weaker waves just for the MLP measurement since Dirac uses that to determine the distance. That all worked pretty well. But now my final solution after moving the speakers more toward the front wall is to do a narrow pattern calibration ... just 7 points in a 3ft cube around the MLP. The impulses are a little sloppy because Dirac still sees somewhat dispersed reflections off the side walls, but the alignment is correct because there's a definitive large peak for Dirac to align to. LCR are aligned precisely on each other at 0.  |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Oct 23, 2022 17:12:47 GMT -5
First of all? USE YOUR EARS. If DIRAC doesn't do much or WHATEVER....below some freequency....in this case? 125hz....or so......and I'm certain it is a sloped response NOT a brick wall?
Than if you have fixed the bass bloat, you should hear that result within seconds.
those little 'bullet' low pass or high pass filters? I think they are I/O impedance sensitive.
And the are cheap enough so you could buy a couple sets.....and return those which didn't have the desired effect.....
I think these kinds of devices are an easy DIY, requiring for best results...know input and output impedance of pre and main amps.....
I had the schematic for a PLLXO which was an easy build. Required very small value capacitors and being passive, was not comfortable with LONG connections......
|
|
