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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 24, 2020 9:37:21 GMT -5
I've a friend who buys his audio components for keeps. He wants a new amplifier from a company that has a decades-long track record, that will honor its warranty, and that will have repair service available years from now. Off the top of my head, I had two recommendations for him:
1. McIntosh - At one time, this would have been the top recommendation, but I have doubts these days for several reasons - First, McIntosh has been through ownership change after ownership change. Some of the changes have been actually beneficial, keeping the company funded and away from bankruptcy. But some of the changes have introduced new, and less reliable technology under the Mac name. For example, the common ownership of Marantz and McIntosh allowed the owner to introduce some Marantz technology with McIntosh faceplates (but without McIntosh reliability). This affected primarily the home theater equipment, but even now, McIntosh HT equipment is basically rebranded Marantz stuff with a much higher price tag. Also, at one time, McIntosh would have traveling "McIntosh Clinics" held at their dealers' facilities. Owners could bring their own equipment to the clinic, have it checked against factory spec, and get it repaired (if needed) usually on the spot for no charge. That's long gone. But until recently (and perhaps still - I don't know) McIntosh maintained a network of authorized repair centers where Mac gear of virtually any vintage could be repaired with factory parts. But I worry that even that may be declining. VERY few authorized McIntosh dealers remain with the bulk of Mac sales being made through the "Magnolia" kiosks in Best-Buy stores. But if Best-Buy goes under, the bulk of Mac sales will likely also disappear. Can the company remain financially viable under those circumstances? Your guess is as good as mine.
2. Bryston - This Canadian company, despite being considered somewhat of a stick in the mud by audiophiles, continues to persist. The specifications of their products quietly improve steadily, and their prices quietly continue to rise. Their warranty is generous, and due to the build quality of their products, is seldom needed. "The Bryston Sound" may not be the most exciting audio presentation available, but it is consistent, and any Bryston components you might purchase can be reliably be handed down to your children or grandchildren with some confidence that the equipment will still meet factory specifications. Bryston is less flamboyant in its advertising than its competitors, and Bryston advertises far less often. The money saved, apparently, goes into the products themselves.
Resale prices on used examples of both of the above brands are consistently higher than the average audio brand and I think that that is because of the consistently higher build quality and reliability. Compare either of these brands with, for example, NAD. On any given day, one can find a plethora of NAD gear on eBay and other auction sites being sold "as is" in non-functional condition. What does this say about NAD? It says first that their build quality is likely cheap, that their engineering may be substandard, and it also says that getting a NAD component repaired is difficult and/or expensive. For a person who buys components in a "here today - gone tomorrow" style, a NAD component would be fine, but for my friend who wants to keep his equipment for decades without any problems, NAD may not be a good choice.
So what other brands, in your experience, meet the gold "McIntosh-Bryston" standard of quality and reliability?
Thanks - Boom
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Post by mauriceminor on Sept 24, 2020 9:55:34 GMT -5
A mid 70's Crown D150A is still in service in my shop system Another long lasting amp is my former MC250 McIntosh, in the hands of neighbor Dr. Joe for some time Two NAD's circa 1985 are a 2155 and a 3155, purchased used, still in service, never a problem
New purchase: Bryston, a 20 year warranty on non digital products is impressive
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Post by brutiarti on Sept 24, 2020 10:04:52 GMT -5
Bryston hands down IMO. Their equipment needs to be carefully matched. It's all about synergy. Currently I have a very nice match between an Ayre Preamp and an Emotiva XPA-2 Gen2. I have to add, now the audiobill is "pushing" Mcintosh , I'm really interested in their products. Specially after watching the factory tour and my desire to purchase American made products.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 24, 2020 10:53:44 GMT -5
My vote would be different if it weren't for "repair service available years from now". I would've said Sansui because the amp I bought in 1979 is still working with no repairs needed. The amp was used everyday for almost 35 years, first 32 years as a main, then for other duties.
So I voted for McIntosh. I had a cousin who purchased his McIntosh equipment in the 1960's. Every few years McIntosh would send him a postcard relating to him where they would be holding a tech fest and for him to bring his equipment along to be checked out. He took advantage of this several times over the ensuing decades, and McIntosh would gladly replace tubes etc which were out of spec. Decades.
I know Bryston has a similar reputation, but I only have direct knowledge of what McIntosh has done.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 24, 2020 11:19:03 GMT -5
I had forgotten Crown! Some of their gear (particularly the older stuff) was absolutely bulletproof. I know of a number of local theaters, radio-stations, and churches that still have '60s, '70s, and '80s Crown amps providing daily service without issue (some 24/7). In fact, I know of one amigo who bought Klipschorns & Crown DC300 amps back in 1970, and the amps (and speakers) are still running.
But from what I understand, speaking to the local Pro Audio stores, the newest (class D) Crown products aren't as reliable as the older amps.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 24, 2020 11:20:27 GMT -5
Not sure about repairs as I've not needed them, but I have a Rotel I bought in ~1990/91-ish. It's still in service - powering my pool speakers using music from a Sonos Connect.
Mark
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Post by mauriceminor on Sept 24, 2020 11:40:04 GMT -5
I had forgotten Crown! Some of their gear (particularly the older stuff) was absolutely bulletproof. I know of a number of local theaters, radio-stations, and churches that still have '60s, '70s, and '80s Crown amps providing daily service without issue (some 24/7). In fact, I know of one amigo who bought Klipschorns & Crown DC300 amps back in 1970, and the amps (and speakers) are still running. But from what I understand, speaking to the local Pro Audio stores, the newest (class D) Crown products aren't as reliable as the older amps. Vintage Crown and NAD are in the M1A2 Abrams category The recent production, I'm not too sure
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Post by audiobill on Sept 24, 2020 16:31:40 GMT -5
Bryston or McIntosh can get you off the merry go round. Expensive , yes but...
And Mc is made in the US.
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Post by audiobill on Sept 24, 2020 16:49:10 GMT -5
Boom, also Audio Classics, in Vestal NY and 15 minutes from the factory is the largest McIntosh dealer in the US and maybe the World.
I wouldn’t worry about Best Buy, no one buys there anyway.
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Post by mauriceminor on Sept 24, 2020 17:39:02 GMT -5
Then again . . .
650 watt Emotiva monobloc XPA-DR1 5 year warranty $1199 600 watt Bryston monobloc 7B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
300 watt Emotiva stereo amp XPA2- Gen 3 5 year warranty $999 300 watt Bryston stereo amp 4B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
Bryston prices courtesy of the Audio Advisor Grand Rapids, Michigan
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 24, 2020 18:41:23 GMT -5
Then again . . .
650 watt Emotiva monobloc XPA-DR1 5 year warranty $1199 600 watt Bryston monobloc 7B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
300 watt Emotiva stereo amp XPA2- Gen 3 5 year warranty $999 300 watt Bryston stereo amp 4B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
Bryston prices courtesy of the Audio Advisor Grand Rapids, Michigan There's no denying that Emotiva products are the better performance value for the $$$, but my audio amigo is interested in longevity rather than value, and plans to keep his equipment for far longer than 5 years. Since he's willing to pay for what he wants...
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 24, 2020 18:42:51 GMT -5
Not sure about repairs as I've not needed them, but I have a Rotel I bought in ~1990/91-ish. It's still in service - powering my pool speakers using music from a Sonos Connect. Mark I somehow doubt that today's Rotel products are in the same class, quality wise. Of course, I could be wrong...
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Post by megash0n on Sept 24, 2020 19:47:33 GMT -5
Then again . . .
650 watt Emotiva monobloc XPA-DR1 5 year warranty $1199 600 watt Bryston monobloc 7B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
300 watt Emotiva stereo amp XPA2- Gen 3 5 year warranty $999 300 watt Bryston stereo amp 4B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
Bryston prices courtesy of the Audio Advisor Grand Rapids, Michigan There's no denying that Emotiva products are the better performance value for the $$$, but my audio amigo is interested in longevity rather than value, and plans to keep his equipment for far longer than 5 years. Since he's willing to pay for what he wants... What do you do about that warranty when the company isn't around anymore? There are a handful of AV companies carrying an enormous amount of liability on their books. If one of those companies had a situation where many things happened at once, that company would go into bankruptcy because they don't have the cash flow, or reserves, to withstand the storm. I have a very valid point here as an example, but my gut tells me it will get me that last %1. Warranties are only good if the company is around to fulfill the promise. 20 years is a long time as well.
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Post by mauriceminor on Sept 24, 2020 20:01:43 GMT -5
megashOn, A good point. While Marantz, McIntosh, NAD, and I'm sure others have been around for decades there is this: these very firms have been sold and bought many times over. I have a pair of XPA-1's for just short of 10 years, paid $838 each, no problems, they have never left their shelf on the rack in the living room.
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 24, 2020 20:01:57 GMT -5
Bad premise it think.... Sooo many great amplifiers out there today that are worth their salt for the long haul. “Under serious load” is the defining factor I feel if you’re talking longevity. The better you are at matching the correct sized amp to the output levels you wish to attain consistently with a given speaker the longer that amplifier will hold up.
Bill
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Post by teaman on Sept 24, 2020 20:10:25 GMT -5
I used Technics SU and SE series amps religiously for decades. Still I have no beef with Technics, and over the case of forty years, all I had to do to keep them running smoothly was to lube the pots every five years for static in the knobs. Since then I have gone full throttle on the Gen 1 and 2 Emotiva amps and I have been pretty darn happy.
I would easily refer Bryston to anyone though, definitely a step above most brands. Bulletproof warranty and reliability. I have heard the 7B, 3B, and 4B at length and they all sound fantastic.
I love the looks of McIntosh gear though, and the meters are mesmerizing. I have only heard them briefly but they sounded really nice.
Tim
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 24, 2020 21:03:21 GMT -5
megashOn, A good point. While Marantz, McIntosh, NAD, and I'm sure others have been around for decades there is this: these very firms have been sold and bought many times over. I have a pair of XPA-1's for just short of 10 years, paid $838 each, no problems, they have never left their shelf on the rack in the living room. I - knock on wood - have an XPA-5 I bought shortly after I joined this forum in 2009 and I bought it used (I think). It's only left my rack to rearrange it or move the rack. I figure at Emotiva prices on amps, I could buy a new one every 5 years for the price of the big $ ones and still be money ahead. Mark
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Post by megash0n on Sept 24, 2020 21:37:57 GMT -5
megashOn, A good point. While Marantz, McIntosh, NAD, and I'm sure others have been around for decades there is this: these very firms have been sold and bought many times over. I have a pair of XPA-1's for just short of 10 years, paid $838 each, no problems, they have never left their shelf on the rack in the living room. I - knock on wood - have an XPA-5 I bought shortly after I joined this forum in 2009 and I bought it used (I think). It's only left my rack to rearrange it or move the rack. I figure at Emotiva prices on amps, I could buy a new one every 5 years for the price of the big $ ones and still be money ahead. Mark I concur. And, if said company where to ever run into financial strain, you've gotten your money's worth. I have a used xpa-5 gen 2 and a new XPA Gen 3 chassis. I'm hopeful the gen 2 is solid for some time.
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Post by vcautokid on Sept 24, 2020 22:09:13 GMT -5
NAD was mentioned. I sold NAD for years. The made in Japan gear was excellent. The cheaper Chinese stuff had high defect rate. The NAD Silver and other premium NAD was fine. Though my Monitor Series 2400 and 7400 crapped out after 10 short years. Those were made in Japan too. NAD currently is too expensive and I am not that impressed what you get for the money. Bryston and older Crown, yes proven. MCintosh does well too. Have a buddy using Mac from a long ago, still going strong.
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Post by audiobill on Sept 25, 2020 5:29:50 GMT -5
All the talk about Mcintosh being bought and sold "many times over" is somewhat overwrought. I'd like to offer just a bit of history:
In 1990, after the passing of Gordon Gow, McIntosh was bought by Clarion, who made huge investments in modernization and manufacturing equipment, R&D and other including very expensive glass plate cutting machines.
Thirteen years later, in 2003, D&M Holdings (Denon & Marantz) bought McIntosh as a top line offering to their more pedestrian products.
The Fine Sounds group acquired Audio Research in 2009, Sumiko in 2010, Wadia in 2011 and McIntosh Laboratories in 2012.
In 2014 Charlie Randall (hired by McIntosh in 1988 and CEO since 2001) announced plans for a management buyout of Fine Sounds Group.
In 2016 Fine Sounds Group was officially renamed McIntosh Group, run by Randall, who today owns all the high-end marques mentioned above. Through these changes, McIntosh engineering and manufacturing has remained in Binghamton, NY, by many of the same employees who have been there for decades. The average tenure of a McIntosh employee is over 20 years.
Three ownership changes since 1949 (seventy one years) and currently led by Charlie Randall, who has been there for 32 years, hardly seems like an unstable company.
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