novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Sept 25, 2020 5:47:44 GMT -5
All the talk about Mcintosh being bought and sold "many times over" is somewhat overwrought. I'd like to offer just a bit of history: In 19990, after the passing of Gordon Gow, McIntosh was bought by Clarion, who made huge investments in modernization and manufacturing equipment, R&D and other including very expensive glass plate cutting machines. Thirteen years later, in 2003, D&M Holdings (Denon & Marantz) bought McIntosh as a top line offering to their more pedestrian products. The Fine Sounds group acquired Audio Research in 2009, Sumiko in 2010, Wadia in 2011 and McIntosh Laboratories in 2012. In 2014 Charlie Randall (hired by McIntosh in 1988 and CEO since 2001) announced plans for a management buyout of Fine Sounds Group. O In 2016 Fine Sounds Group was officially renamed McIntosh Group, run by Randall, who today owns all the high-end marques mentioned above. Through these changes, McIntosh engineering and manufacturing has remained in Binghamton, NY, by many of the same employees who have been there for decades. The average tenure of a McIntosh employee is over 20 years Three ownership changes since 1949 and currently led by Charlie Randall, who has been there for 32 years, hardly seems like an unstable company. No wonder the sound is so good, they looped back in history to the year 2020 from 19990! They learned so much and brought it back to us. You think they would have picked a better year to return though! (2020). 🤔🤣
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Post by audiobill on Sept 25, 2020 6:51:50 GMT -5
All the talk about Mcintosh being bought and sold "many times over" is somewhat overwrought. I'd like to offer just a bit of history: In 19990, after the passing of Gordon Gow, McIntosh was bought by Clarion, who made huge investments in modernization and manufacturing equipment, R&D and other including very expensive glass plate cutting machines. Thirteen years later, in 2003, D&M Holdings (Denon & Marantz) bought McIntosh as a top line offering to their more pedestrian products. The Fine Sounds group acquired Audio Research in 2009, Sumiko in 2010, Wadia in 2011 and McIntosh Laboratories in 2012. In 2014 Charlie Randall (hired by McIntosh in 1988 and CEO since 2001) announced plans for a management buyout of Fine Sounds Group. O In 2016 Fine Sounds Group was officially renamed McIntosh Group, run by Randall, who today owns all the high-end marques mentioned above. Through these changes, McIntosh engineering and manufacturing has remained in Binghamton, NY, by many of the same employees who have been there for decades. The average tenure of a McIntosh employee is over 20 years Three ownership changes since 1949 and currently led by Charlie Randall, who has been there for 32 years, hardly seems like an unstable company. No wonder the sound is so good, they looped back in history to the year 2020 from 19990! They learned so much and brought it back to us. You think they would have picked a better year to return though! (2020). 🤔🤣 Sorry, fixed that date!
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Post by brutiarti on Sept 25, 2020 9:28:56 GMT -5
Then again . . .
650 watt Emotiva monobloc XPA-DR1 5 year warranty $1199 600 watt Bryston monobloc 7B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
300 watt Emotiva stereo amp XPA2- Gen 3 5 year warranty $999 300 watt Bryston stereo amp 4B-3 Cubed 20 year warranty $6795
Bryston prices courtesy of the Audio Advisor Grand Rapids, Michigan There's no denying that Emotiva products are the better performance value for the $$$, but my audio amigo is interested in longevity rather than value, and plans to keep his equipment for far longer than 5 years. Since he's willing to pay for what he wants... I totally understand your friend Boom, I spent so much money and time to perfectly match my main system to my liking that I don't have any desire to keep replacing broken units after a few years. When my XPR-1 died after 3 years I got scared so I ditch Emo from my main system. My second system is the one that try new products. Right now I'm happy with the performance of the XPA-2 G2
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Post by boomzilla on Sept 25, 2020 9:42:48 GMT -5
OK - let's assume that an "average" audio amplifier provides 7.5 years of service (5 years under warranty and an additional 50% during the "wear out" part of the bathtub curve of reliability). Using mauriceminor's data, and assuming a 20 year period: 650 watt Emotiva XPA-DR-1: Initial cost (year zero) = $1,200 / @ year 7.5 replacement cost = $1,325 (includes 2% annual inflation) / @ year 15 replacement cost = $1,463. So at 22.5 years, the total cost of ownership is $3,988. Normalizing to 20 years: TCO = $3,190 600 watt Bryston 7b^3: Initial cost (year zero) = $6,795. So at 30 years of service (20 years under warranty and an additional 50% during the "wear out" part of the bathtub curve of reliability), the total cost of ownership is $6,795. But to regress to 20 years (matching the term on the Emotiva), total cost of 20 year ownership is $4,530. Thus, the Emotiva option for a 20-year ownership term is less expensive by $1,340. But is cost the only consideration? The Bryston offers the following potential advantages: 1. No replacements needed during the ownership term 2. Company with longer track record and stability 3. Potentially better sound (personal preference) 4. Bragging rights for more prestigious brand name (personal preference) 5. Higher likelihood of having repair parts and service available Are those worth an additional $67 per year to the purchaser? Only the purchaser can make that decision, but the actual per-annum cost of owning a "premium" brand may not be all that much greater IF one keeps the equipment over its entire service life.
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Post by tchaik on Sept 25, 2020 10:05:19 GMT -5
OK - let's assume that an "average" audio amplifier provides 7.5 years of service (5 years under warranty and an additional 50% during the "wear out" part of the bathtub curve of reliability). Using mauriceminor's data, and assuming a 20 year period: 650 watt Emotiva XPA-DR-1: Initial cost (year zero) = $1,200 / @ year 7.5 replacement cost = $1,325 (includes 2% annual inflation) / @ year 15 replacement cost = $1,463. So at 22.5 years, the total cost of ownership is $3,988. Normalizing to 20 years: TCO = $3,190 600 watt Bryston 7b^3: Initial cost (year zero) = $6,795. So at 30 years of service (20 years under warranty and an additional 50% during the "wear out" part of the bathtub curve of reliability), the total cost of ownership is $6,795. But to regress to 20 years (matching the term on the Emotiva), total cost of 20 year ownership is $4,530. Thus, the Emotiva option for a 20-year ownership term is less expensive by $1,340. But is cost the only consideration? The Bryston offers the following potential advantages: 1. No replacements needed during the ownership term 2. Company with longer track record and stability 3. Potentially better sound (personal preference) 4. Bragging rights for more prestigious brand name (personal preference) 5. Higher likelihood of having repair parts and service available Are those worth an additional $67 per year to the purchaser? Only the purchaser can make that decision, but the actual per-annum cost of owning a "premium" brand may not be all that much greater IF one keeps the equipment over its entire service life. Boom, those are all very good points to be made and over the long term the cost differential is far less significant. here is my personal problem. I have the dreaded disease "upgrade-itis". in the days when I owned audio research and krell and spectral products, I was changing amps/preamps every 2 years. the cost was enormous and the cost on my marriage was even greater. Emotiva allows me to medicate that "upgrade-itis" at a much lower cost. although I lose out on points #2, #3 and #4. tchaik........
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Post by ttocs on Sept 25, 2020 10:06:01 GMT -5
OK - let's assume that an "average" audio amplifier provides 7.5 years of service (5 years under warranty and an additional 50% during the "wear out" part of the bathtub curve of reliability). Using mauriceminor 's data, and assuming a 20 year period: 650 watt Emotiva XPA-DR-1: Initial cost (year zero) = $1,200 / @ year 7.5 replacement cost = $1,325 (includes 2% annual inflation) / @ year 15 replacement cost = $1,463. So at 22.5 years, the total cost of ownership is $3,988. Normalizing to 20 years: TCO = $3,190 600 watt Bryston 7b^3: Initial cost (year zero) = $6,795. So at 30 years of service (20 years under warranty and an additional 50% during the "wear out" part of the bathtub curve of reliability), the total cost of ownership is $6,795. But to regress to 20 years (matching the term on the Emotiva), total cost of 20 year ownership is $4,530. Thus, the Emotiva option for a 20-year ownership term is less expensive by $1,340. But is cost the only consideration? The Bryston offers the following potential advantages: 1. No replacements needed during the ownership term 2. Company with longer track record and stability 3. Potentially better sound (personal preference) 4. Bragging rights for more prestigious brand name (personal preference) 5. Higher likelihood of having repair parts and service available Are those worth an additional $67 per year to the purchaser? Only the purchaser can make that decision, but the actual per-annum cost of owning a "premium" brand may not be all that much greater IF one keeps the equipment over its entire service life.
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DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,342
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Post by DYohn on Sept 25, 2020 13:10:44 GMT -5
In my opinion there are far more important things in audio than longevity, but to each his own. If my choices were Bryston or McIntosh there is no question I'd buy McIntosh.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,929
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Post by KeithL on Sept 25, 2020 13:41:13 GMT -5
Interesting...
I would have to agree that, in terms of pure longevity, the award should almost certainly still go to McIntosh. They've always been built like tanks... and tend to last forever. And they have awesome resale value (at least most models - with a few exceptions).
I also has a McIntosh tuner some time ago that was probably the best-sounding FM tuner I've ever owned. It was also far and away the most expensive - even though I purchased it used.
I sold it when it became apparent that there was nothing I wanted to listen to on FM.... and got back about what I paid for it.
However, to be quite honest, I have never been especially impressed with how McIntosh amplifiers sounded. I'm not saying that they sound in any way... bad.
I've just always found them to sound somewhat short of neutral - usually tending toward the warm or soft side of the spectrum. And, if you don't know me, you can tell from the way I phrased that... I think an ideal amp should sound perfectly neutral.
I've only ever owned one Bryston amp.. and I've never owned a McIntosh amp... although I've heard plenty of both.
I've thought that the Bryston amps I've heard generally sounded cleaner and more neutral than the McIntosh amps. (And I think our XPA amps... all the way back to Gen1... also sounded a bit cleaner and more neutral as well.)
In my opinion there are far more important things in audio than longevity, but to each his own. If my choices were Bryston or McIntosh there is no question I'd buy McIntosh.
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Post by audiobill on Sept 25, 2020 18:33:43 GMT -5
But Emo amps appear to require regular cap upgrades, for those with skills......the thread, after all is about reliability, not short-term perceived “value”.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 25, 2020 19:27:55 GMT -5
There's no denying that Emotiva products are the better performance value for the $$$, but my audio amigo is interested in longevity rather than value, and plans to keep his equipment for far longer than 5 years. Since he's willing to pay for what he wants... Did you happen to ask him why he wants to keep the same power amplifier for "far longer than 5 years"? Aside from maybe a turntable and an analogue pre amp, nothing else is going to last that long technically, most certainly anything digital. So it's unlikely to be a one time set up, some of it will almost certainly have to replaced. Power amps are my longest kept items (turntable aside), in my Emotiva time, the XPA-2 and XPA-3 (now owned by my cousin) are 10 years old and the XPA-5 (that I use every day) is 9 years old. None of them have had any issues whatsoever, so based on my experience Emotiva power amps live pretty long lives (noting that mine all have linear power supplies). I use my gear every single day, for several hours, so it racks up the miles. A recently passed friend of mine had a room full of McIntosh gear that he turned on maybe once a month, so they were time old but had not many miles on them. Just curious as to the reasons why he wants the same power amp for such a long time? Especially when anything digital connected to it is going to last maybe 3 years before it becomes technological obsolete. Cheers Gary
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 25, 2020 19:32:16 GMT -5
the actual per-annum cost of owning a "premium" brand may not be all that much greater IF one keeps the equipment over its entire service life. Perhaps for many of us it should be IF one is still alive over its entire service life Cheers Gary
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 25, 2020 21:19:57 GMT -5
On your “other” I checked for Sunfire. The good news is I’m running trouble free since January of 2001. The BAD news is twofold. Years ago they moved their amplifier production to China. Some said they were not as good as their USA counterparts. The other bad part comes just weeks ago, as it appears Sunfire has given up on amplifier production all together....oh well! Looks like Someday I’ll be shopping (but not yet)
Bill
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 25, 2020 21:39:04 GMT -5
Just curious, of those who cast votes, how many have actual ownership experience, or is it just an opinion?
I didn't vote since I have no idea although one of these days I'd like to own some McIntosh gear. But better to buy it younger than older so you have more years over which to average the cost (although when you are young maybe money is tighter).
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Post by mauriceminor on Sept 25, 2020 22:27:20 GMT -5
Just curious, of those who cast votes, how many have actual ownership experience, or is it just an opinion? I didn't vote since I have no idea although one of these days I'd like to own some McIntosh gear. But better to buy it younger than older so you have more years over which to average the cost (although when you are young maybe money is tighter). Have : Bryston BDP-1 media player (not an amplifier), flawless Crown D150A power amplifier, flawless Had: McIntosh MX 113 preamp / tuner, preamp section required service after about 5 years McIntosh MC 250 power amplifier, flawless I recall stopping at Flanner + Hafsoos Music House one Saturday afternoon in the late 70's Left with the McIntosh gear, a pair of Klipsch Heresy, AND ('free') original Monster Cable speaker wires Pretty sure it was just short of $2000 plus tax The preamp included a pair of interconnects that were quite skinny, a real contrast to the Monster's
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Sept 25, 2020 22:31:56 GMT -5
A short while back I re-capped a pair of 40 year old Kenwood amps. A KA-7300 and a Model 600. Both integrated amps that worked well before I updated the power electrolytics and the electrolytics in the signal path. Any quality amp, unless it sees daily hard work in an unfriendly environment (hot) should last at least 20 years.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 25, 2020 22:53:53 GMT -5
Never owned McIntosh. Spent a lot of time using/listening to my cousin's McIntosh tuner, pre, amps, over Klipsch corner horns back the the 1970s-1980s. Lots of LP's and reel to reel pre-recorded music, along with the Light Organ - it was the 1970's, no system was complete without one. McIntosh took care of everything throughout his ownership for decades, no break downs, just maintenance.
Then one of my best friends bought a MX121/MC207 combo 8 years ago along with Sonus Faber Olympica III's. Lots of LP's and CD's over the years. Had a problem with the meter lights, McIntosh said it was very unusual, I don't recall what the fix was. The amp buzzed when he had a plasma tv. Now he has an OLED, no buzz.
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Post by boomzilla on Sept 26, 2020 6:09:48 GMT -5
Did you happen to ask him why he wants to keep the same power amplifier for "far longer than 5 years"? - Gary Experience. He's still using an old Mac amp he bought in college. He just likes it that way.
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Post by boomzilla on Sept 26, 2020 6:13:24 GMT -5
Just curious, of those who cast votes, how many have actual ownership experience, or is it just an opinion? I didn't vote since I have no idea although one of these days I'd like to own some McIntosh gear. But better to buy it younger than older so you have more years over which to average the cost (although when you are young maybe money is tighter). I've personally owned both McIntosh and Bryston - but not long enough with either to be making reliability judgements. Of the two, I thought the McIntosh sounded better, but that's just me.
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Post by garbulky on Sept 26, 2020 6:44:03 GMT -5
There's no denying that Emotiva products are the better performance value for the $$$, but my audio amigo is interested in longevity rather than value, and plans to keep his equipment for far longer than 5 years. Since he's willing to pay for what he wants... Did you happen to ask him why he wants to keep the same power amplifier for "far longer than 5 years"? Aside from maybe a turntable and an analogue pre amp, nothing else is going to last that long technically, most certainly anything digital. So it's unlikely to be a one time set up, some of it will almost certainly have to replaced. Power amps are my longest kept items (turntable aside), in my Emotiva time, the XPA-2 and XPA-3 (now owned by my cousin) are 10 years old and the XPA-5 (that I use every day) is 9 years old. None of them have had any issues whatsoever, so based on my experience Emotiva power amps live pretty long lives (noting that mine all have linear power supplies). I use my gear every single day, for several hours, so it racks up the miles. A recently passed friend of mine had a room full of McIntosh gear that he turned on maybe once a month, so they were time old but had not many miles on them. Just curious as to the reasons why he wants the same power amp for such a long time? Especially when anything digital connected to it is going to last maybe 3 years before it becomes technological obsolete. Cheers Gary Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but I expect my XPA-1 amps to last at least 15 years, maybe more. 20-25 years down the line, if it's still running without issues, I won't be surprised. Worst comes to worse, I imagine it will be something like caps that need replacing. Now ask me that about the gen 3's. (Nope, I won't take that bet. )
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Post by mgbpuff on Sept 26, 2020 8:14:19 GMT -5
I have a Marantz 8B amp. Bought it in 1964. Never been serviced except for tube replacement. Still sounds good. Paid $200. Don't remember what warranty was included, but I don't think much.
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