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Post by marcl on Jan 18, 2021 2:16:20 GMT -5
So when do we have elevated bass signal? 1. Center sub - LFE, R/L sub none, LR -large YES2. Center sub - mono, L/R sub none, all speakers small NO3. Center sub - LFE, L/R sub mono or dual mono, all speakers small only 2 subs Dual Mono4. Center sub - none, L/R sub mono or dual mono, all speakers small only 2 subs Dual MonoDon’t know if I have missed some setting.. Also, Center sub=none, L/R subs=none, LR-large
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Post by ttocs on Jan 18, 2021 18:53:51 GMT -5
I'm thinking that one reason the Center Channel sounds so much better with dedicated LFE subs is that when the Center Sub is set for LFE and the Fronts get quieter, the whole system seems to be more in line. I hope to have a bit of time in a couple days to watch some of my Go To movies for audio. I've had my system setup with dedicated LFE for a few months now, so when I switch back to Mono the difference should be quite evident.
I believe this issue is why the Center Channel needed a boost when I used to have the subs set for Mono, and now I actually turn the Center down a little when subs are set for LFE.
And also this must be why the immersive channels are so much better because I can hear them without blasting the Fronts.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 19, 2021 6:56:48 GMT -5
I'm thinking that one reason the Center Channel sounds so much better with dedicated LFE subs is that when the Center Sub is set for LFE and the Fronts get quieter, the whole system seems to be more in line. I hope to have a bit of time in a couple days to watch some of my Go To movies for audio. I've had my system setup with dedicated LFE for a few months now, so when I switch back to Mono the difference should be quite evident. I believe this issue is why the Center Channel needed a boost when I used to have the subs set for Mono, and now I actually turn the Center down a little when subs are set for LFE. And also this must be why the immersive channels are so much better because I can hear them without blasting the Fronts. Yes, but all mute if Emotiva is doing something wrong with mixing the bass/channels. When I lower my center sub (mono) 3db (all speakers small) it sounds more similar to LFE+large LR.. Still heavier bass in mono though. marcl, you seem to have control over what happens. Could you report this to Emotiva?
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 19, 2021 7:33:18 GMT -5
So when do we have elevated bass signal? 1. Center sub - LFE, R/L sub none, LR -large YES2. Center sub - mono, L/R sub none, all speakers small NO3. Center sub - LFE, L/R sub mono or dual mono, all speakers small only 2 subs Dual Mono4. Center sub - none, L/R sub mono or dual mono, all speakers small only 2 subs Dual MonoDon’t know if I have missed some setting.. Also, Center sub=none, L/R subs=none, LR-large Ah yes.. I thought about that just before I read your comment. I seem to have more bass when center sub is mono rather than than LFE+large LR. It’s no small difference either..
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Post by marcl on Jan 19, 2021 8:08:03 GMT -5
Also, Center sub=none, L/R subs=none, LR-large Ah yes.. I thought about that just before I read your comment. I seem to have more bass when center sub is mono rather than than LFE+large LR. It’s no small difference either.. What I'm pointing to is that whenever two large speakers or two subs play the same mono bass from a small speaker, the bass will be nominally 3db louder than the small speaker high pass signal. I think what you're saying here - and I wouldn't dispute it - is that you hear louder bass when LFE and bass management go to the center sub, than when LFE goes to center sub and bass management goes to large L/R. If that's the case then there's something else coming into play, and that is you're hearing bass management through the sub and it has a different character than it did when coming from the large L/R ... probably a little boomier and less accurate due to the nature of subwoofers and the different placement in the room. This whole phenomenon has been reported to Emotiva. No response yet.
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Post by marcl on Jan 19, 2021 8:14:20 GMT -5
I'm thinking that one reason the Center Channel sounds so much better with dedicated LFE subs is that when the Center Sub is set for LFE and the Fronts get quieter, the whole system seems to be more in line. I hope to have a bit of time in a couple days to watch some of my Go To movies for audio. I've had my system setup with dedicated LFE for a few months now, so when I switch back to Mono the difference should be quite evident. I believe this issue is why the Center Channel needed a boost when I used to have the subs set for Mono, and now I actually turn the Center down a little when subs are set for LFE. And also this must be why the immersive channels are so much better because I can hear them without blasting the Fronts. Yes, but all mute if Emotiva is doing something wrong with mixing the bass/channels. When I lower my center sub (mono) 3db (all speakers small) it sounds more similar to LFE+large LR.. Still heavier bass in mono though. marcl , you seem to have control over what happens. Could you report this to Emotiva? I control nothing ... no one listens to me What we know is that bass management works differently for XMC-2/RMC than it did for XMC-1. What you're saying here relates to my response to the other post. When bass management goes to a sub it tends to be at least a little boomier and less precise, due to the mass and transient response of most subs and the different location in the room. Lowering the level mitigates this a bit. BTW I evaluate the character of deep bass using recordings of acoustic instruments made in live ambient spaces with no post processing or compression. Double bass, tuba, large concert bass drum ... this is where I hear the difference between my subs at 40Hz and my mains.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 19, 2021 8:53:58 GMT -5
Yes, but all mute if Emotiva is doing something wrong with mixing the bass/channels. When I lower my center sub (mono) 3db (all speakers small) it sounds more similar to LFE+large LR.. Still heavier bass in mono though. marcl , you seem to have control over what happens. Could you report this to Emotiva? I control nothing ... no one listens to me What we know is that bass management works differently for XMC-2/RMC than it did for XMC-1. What you're saying here relates to my response to the other post. When bass management goes to a sub it tends to be at least a little boomier and less precise, due to the mass and transient response of most subs and the different location in the room. Lowering the level mitigates this a bit. BTW I evaluate the character of deep bass using recordings of acoustic instruments made in live ambient spaces with no post processing or compression. Double bass, tuba, large concert bass drum ... this is where I hear the difference between my subs at 40Hz and my mains. I did a demo run of the latest Star Wars movie. The intro scene where Kylo Ren goes to visit Palpatine. Every scene have thunderous bass in mono settings. Even when Kylo walks past the camera or when his space ship fly past. In LFE settings these effects almost do nothing until something really big happens. Like when Palpatine raises his Star Destroyers. To me it’s more than 3db difference. But if I lower center sub 3db the difference is less. I guess with about -6db it may start to sound the same. But I guess then the LFE may be muted too much.. We need this fixed and/or a BM level settings.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 19, 2021 8:55:02 GMT -5
Yes, but all mute if Emotiva is doing something wrong with mixing the bass/channels. When I lower my center sub (mono) 3db (all speakers small) it sounds more similar to LFE+large LR.. Still heavier bass in mono though. marcl , you seem to have control over what happens. Could you report this to Emotiva? I control nothing ... no one listens to me What we know is that bass management works differently for XMC-2/RMC than it did for XMC-1. What you're saying here relates to my response to the other post. When bass management goes to a sub it tends to be at least a little boomier and less precise, due to the mass and transient response of most subs and the different location in the room. Lowering the level mitigates this a bit. BTW I evaluate the character of deep bass using recordings of acoustic instruments made in live ambient spaces with no post processing or compression. Double bass, tuba, large concert bass drum ... this is where I hear the difference between my subs at 40Hz and my mains. I ment control over what happens with the sound, not control over development.
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Post by marcl on Jan 19, 2021 9:41:24 GMT -5
I control nothing ... no one listens to me What we know is that bass management works differently for XMC-2/RMC than it did for XMC-1. What you're saying here relates to my response to the other post. When bass management goes to a sub it tends to be at least a little boomier and less precise, due to the mass and transient response of most subs and the different location in the room. Lowering the level mitigates this a bit. BTW I evaluate the character of deep bass using recordings of acoustic instruments made in live ambient spaces with no post processing or compression. Double bass, tuba, large concert bass drum ... this is where I hear the difference between my subs at 40Hz and my mains. I ment control over what happens with the sound, not control over development.
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Post by megash0n on Jan 19, 2021 12:30:29 GMT -5
Ah yes.. I thought about that just before I read your comment. I seem to have more bass when center sub is mono rather than than LFE+large LR. It’s no small difference either.. What I'm pointing to is that whenever two large speakers or two subs play the same mono bass from a small speaker, the bass will be nominally 3db louder than the small speaker high pass signal. I think what you're saying here - and I wouldn't dispute it - is that you hear louder bass when LFE and bass management go to the center sub, than when LFE goes to center sub and bass management goes to large L/R. If that's the case then there's something else coming into play, and that is you're hearing bass management through the sub and it has a different character than it did when coming from the large L/R ... probably a little boomier and less accurate due to the nature of subwoofers and the different placement in the room. This whole phenomenon has been reported to Emotiva. No response yet. doesn't this bring back into question the whole concept of "which speaker's filters are used after BM is applied" ? You know.. Think of a flowchart and when filters should be applied and why. Do we actually know if that BM data is pre or post filter.. Or worse.. Both causing nulls and peaks. Just crazy talk here.. But something to consider.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 20, 2021 20:16:19 GMT -5
As I suspected, under 200Hz I'm able to get the Left and Right to work well individually, or, Left and Right summed together, but it's one or the other, can't have it both ways.
It's a different story with the LFE group, which is the bottom left (L1) and bottom right (R1) subs, along with a single sub (LFE5) at the back wall, so it's a group of three. This works very well.
So now I'm considering options for using this sub for the Left/Right Groups to eliminate the null when they play mono together, as well as smooth out some fairly skinny dips when they play individually. This coming weekend I'm going to play with combining LFE5 with L1 and L2 and see what happens. My assumption is that it will improve upon what the Left is currently providing. Then I'll so the same for the Right.
The ultimate is to figure a way for LFE5 to be playing concurrently with the L&R Groups for mono. To do this is not possible using the speaker level connections as I have mono amps and this isn't compatible with a single subwoofer. So it's either buy another sub, maybe, or use miniDSP, again, maybe. The issue again is that I'm using mono amps and don't want to mix individual signals together into one box possibly collapsing the great soundstage I now enjoy.
Another possibility is adding LFE5 to the weaker of the Left or Right, but with the emphasis of providing the most benefit to playing mono bass under 200Hz. So, thinking out loud, this is probably what I should try first.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 20, 2021 22:43:29 GMT -5
I think I have a solution for two channel - Enhanced Bass, but this doesn't solve anything for multichannel. This still might present a timing issue, but using any route other than what the L&R Groups are using presents this same issue.
I'm already using a miniDSP from the Center Sub output for the three LFE subs. All I need to do is to use a different profile and only enable the LFE5 sub and align it to both Fronts.
As I said, this would only work for two channel as it's easy to confine the Enhanced Bass in LFE5 in this audio mode being that it's just the Front Left and Front Right only, no other channels.
If the timing works out ok, this would probably be very high on the list of preferred solutions for two channel. Wild speculation that needs proof.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 23, 2021 9:56:35 GMT -5
I'm pretty busy today, but by tomorrow I want to try this setup below. It involves splitting the L&R signal and sending the tube amps one part of the split, and the other to a second miniDSP which then combines them into a single output and sends that to the subwoofer at the back of the room. The graphic shows the usage of a fourth VSUB which I don't have, but if this works, I'll be ordering. This is to solve the null that happens when L&R are playing the same mono signal, as well as extra smoothing for L or R when playing individually. Win Win. During all of the recent testing I had been using a solid state amp due to all of the repeated powering on and off and on and off, but the tube amps are my preferred amps. So this represents more accurately how the connections really should be.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 23, 2021 11:47:55 GMT -5
I figured out why the Center Channel sounds better when it has its own subwoofer. It's because the bass from BM is "doubled up" when sent to both the L&R speakers instead of one or the other.
And, this is also why I enjoy the sound of the Surrounds and ATMOS more when the Center Channel has its own subwoofer, because I don't mind as much having more bass in these channels.
So after I mess with using SUB5 for quelling the null, I'll see what I can do for the Center Channel.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 24, 2021 17:38:00 GMT -5
I figured out why the Center Channel sounds better when it has its own subwoofer. It's because the bass from BM is "doubled up" when sent to both the L&R speakers instead of one or the other. And, this is also why I enjoy the sound of the Surrounds and ATMOS more when the Center Channel has its own subwoofer, because I don't mind as much having more bass in these channels. So after I mess with using SUB5 for quelling the null, I'll see what I can do for the Center Channel. So you like FULL sound then I guess.. Double bass, Enhanced bass or REL high level usually gives you this feeling. Often because the overlap usually is more than a classic crossover. Also because many ”large” fronts are pretty weak below 50hz.. Compared to subwoofers anyway. Most of the time you actually overlap higher than the speakers natrual drop because you ”like” how it sounds. Even though it’s not correctly flat. About the same as doing a Harman curve with Dirac. But I wager to have as clean and clear center with easy to hear voices you should avoid any overlap. Bass tend to muddy sound, especially midrange.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 24, 2021 18:47:57 GMT -5
I figured out why the Center Channel sounds better when it has its own subwoofer. It's because the bass from BM is "doubled up" when sent to both the L&R speakers instead of one or the other. And, this is also why I enjoy the sound of the Surrounds and ATMOS more when the Center Channel has its own subwoofer, because I don't mind as much having more bass in these channels. So after I mess with using SUB5 for quelling the null, I'll see what I can do for the Center Channel. So you like FULL sound then I guess.. Double bass, Enhanced bass or REL high level usually gives you this feeling. Often because the overlap usually is more than a classic crossover. Also because many ”large” fronts are pretty weak below 50hz.. Compared to subwoofers anyway. Most of the time you actually overlap higher than the speakers natrual drop because you ”like” how it sounds. Even though it’s not correctly flat. About the same as doing a Harman curve with Dirac. But I wager to have as clean and clear center with easy to hear voices you should avoid any overlap. Bass tend to muddy sound, especially midrange. Opposite. Bass Management sends a single channel of bass to two channels (Front Left AND Right) with the setup I'm currently employing - Center Sub=LFE so BM is sent to Fronts so the bass is "doubled up" with no internal adjustment provided in the processor (1 channel in/2 channels out). When I employ a single subwoofer for only the Center Channel, the Center Channel sounds better because the bass is now less by several dB (1 channel in/1 channel out). This doubled-up situation can be adjusted for by doing exactly what is done with each Subwoofer Output. When 1 sub is used there is no adjustment, with 2 subwoofer outputs used there is a -3dB adjustment, and when all 3 subwoofer outputs are used there is a -6dB internal adjustment. So when BM sends bass to the Fronts, a -3dB adjustment should be employed. If there's a little extra bass for ONLY the Surrounds and Atmos, that's less objectionable than having extra bass in the Center Channel because the Center Channel is on all the time. It's simply too much. So again, separating the Center Channel so it is only produced by one channel, and not doubled up, sounds a lot better and more natural with the correct amount of bass. This is a comparison of Left Front (Red), Left Surround (Blue), and LFE (Purple). The Left Surround "should" have the same level of bass as the Left Front, but instead is +3 to +5dB higher due to both Fronts producing the bass instead of only the Left.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 25, 2021 11:23:44 GMT -5
So you like FULL sound then I guess.. Double bass, Enhanced bass or REL high level usually gives you this feeling. Often because the overlap usually is more than a classic crossover. Also because many ”large” fronts are pretty weak below 50hz.. Compared to subwoofers anyway. Most of the time you actually overlap higher than the speakers natrual drop because you ”like” how it sounds. Even though it’s not correctly flat. About the same as doing a Harman curve with Dirac. But I wager to have as clean and clear center with easy to hear voices you should avoid any overlap. Bass tend to muddy sound, especially midrange. Opposite. Bass Management sends a single channel of bass to two channels (Front Left AND Right) with the setup I'm currently employing - Center Sub=LFE so BM is sent to Fronts so the bass is "doubled up" with no internal adjustment provided in the processor (1 channel in/2 channels out). When I employ a single subwoofer for only the Center Channel, the Center Channel sounds better because the bass is now less by several dB (1 channel in/1 channel out). This doubled-up situation can be adjusted for by doing exactly what is done with each Subwoofer Output. When 1 sub is used there is no adjustment, with 2 subwoofer outputs used there is a -3dB adjustment, and when all 3 subwoofer outputs are used there is a -6dB internal adjustment. So when BM sends bass to the Fronts, a -3dB adjustment should be employed. If there's a little extra bass for ONLY the Surrounds and Atmos, that's less objectionable than having extra bass in the Center Channel because the Center Channel is on all the time. It's simply too much. So again, separating the Center Channel so it is only produced by one channel, and not doubled up, sounds a lot better and more natural with the correct amount of bass. View AttachmentThis is a comparison of Left Front (Red), Left Surround (Blue), and LFE (Purple). The Left Surround "should" have the same level of bass as the Left Front, but instead is +3 to +5dB higher due to both Fronts producing the bass instead of only the Left. View AttachmentMisread your post. Now I see what you ment. My post is still true for others that like A LOT of bass.. Very few actually set their bass flat. I have mailed with Damon about this issue, Lonnie chipped in. I pointed him to this thread. Don’t know if he has the time or would like to post but I hope he atleast read some posts..
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 26, 2021 16:40:01 GMT -5
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Post by ttocs on Jan 26, 2021 17:57:01 GMT -5
#4. There is a direction in a sub with a front facing driver. It's not a circle, it's a lobe shape. This is one part of the equation when utilizing some configurations of a cardioid setup using multiple subwoofers stacked in reversed orientations. Also, I wasn't aware of how directional a sub can be until early last year when I began testing all the possible locations in my room where subwoofers could be placed. When I rotated the subs, and when I aimed them at the ceiling, there were vastly different responses measured. Then, there's how to use walls to "aim" the bass. #10. I use the High Level connections to achieve what I cannot when using the XMC-2. The XMC-2 will not allow me to adjust multiple subwoofers AND let my speakers still get the full signal so they can be set using the controls they have built-in for profiling the bass - which lowers or raises the bottom bass below 75Hz. It doesn't slope away, it slopes down or up to a level and remains flat to below 20Hz. Cool feature!. Once my setup was adjusted, no further interaction is needed from a processor unless I want that - which I do for movies. And one feature about using the High Level that draws me to it is the fact that it DOES negate the bass management in the processor. Lastly, that article is probably aimed at typical usage of something called a "subwoofer". I use subwoofers for woofers when using the High Level connection. Those same devices are used "as" subwoofers when using the LFE inputs on them. I read that article about a year ago when researching all things subwoofer. This is before I discovered I couldn't agree with #4.
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Post by marcl on Jan 28, 2021 10:56:44 GMT -5
Really good article. A couple thoughts: #2 At first it seems to be a confused argument for an article on subwoofers, because the argument really speaks to why you don't want a lot of absorption in middle and high frequencies. In practice, I really think that you can't have too much absorption below 200Hz. This is mostly because you physically would/could never put THAT much absorption in a practical listening space. #4 I can't dispute ttocs ' experimental results. He did measure differences by reorienting his subs. But much of #4 talks about situations other than "simple" sealed or ported box subs with or without a passive radiator. In fact, passive radiators aren't mentioned. And it's well known that open baffle dipole subs load the room differently than box subs, but their orientation is irrelevant as long as you don't sit in the dipole null. The article talks about directional perception mostly, which you can't measure. And it references pointing ports or drivers toward absorptive surfaces to mitigate audibility of high frequency distortion, which is probably true. ttocs talks about using subwoofers as woofers too, and this is where he and I take a different approach. I let my subs do LFE because LFE requires high dynamic range and my planar dipoles don't do high dynamic range LFE well (they do high dynamic range music just fine). So for LFE the subs go right up over 100Hz and then roll off. But for music I keep them below 40Hz. I use planar dipole woofers to supplement my mains to even out 40-150Hz. So down to 40Hz all my speakers - large and small - get their bass from planar dipoles.
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