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Post by ttocs on Feb 9, 2021 22:33:11 GMT -5
If connecting as I've done, without using a Subwoofer Output for the Left/Right Main Speakers, you would need to time align each sub to each Front speaker before running Dirac. Dirac will only see discrete outputs and doesn't "see" how many drivers are connected to any individual output. In my case Dirac only sees the Left Channel, and doesn't know that I've got a speaker and two subwoofers connected to it. It's just "one big speaker" as far as Dirac knows. I see. So I have to use minidsp then, no choice. Yes, I believe you are correct. You would need to run from the L&R outs to the miniDSP, then out to Fronts and out to Subs. The L&R would be setup as Large, and the miniDSP would do all the heavy lifting. When Dirac measures the Left and Right it will show the frequency range from whatever the subs are capable of up to what the ESL's are capable of. Plus, if you wanted to, you could restrict the bass below the natural rolloff of the ESL's woofer to save it from any possibility of damage at high volume if the frequency was too low. I do this in Dirac where I add Control Points to cut off the bass below 18Hz because neither my Mains nor subs are designed for lower bass than that, at least at high volume anyway. Something to consider is getting the 2x4HD. It will save 4 Configs, and from what I can see in the manual for the non HD version it will save just the one internally and others would need to be saved to the computer. There are more features that make it attractive, plus it comes with an AC adapter. Just a thought.
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Post by p4t on Feb 10, 2021 12:50:04 GMT -5
I see. So I have to use minidsp then, no choice. Yes, I believe you are correct. You would need to run from the L&R outs to the miniDSP, then out to Fronts and out to Subs. The L&R would be setup as Large, and the miniDSP would do all the heavy lifting. When Dirac measures the Left and Right it will show the frequency range from whatever the subs are capable of up to what the ESL's are capable of. Plus, if you wanted to, you could restrict the bass below the natural rolloff of the ESL's woofer to save it from any possibility of damage at high volume if the frequency was too low. I do this in Dirac where I add Control Points to cut off the bass below 18Hz because neither my Mains nor subs are designed for lower bass than that, at least at high volume anyway. Something to consider is getting the 2x4HD. It will save 4 Configs, and from what I can see in the manual for the non HD version it will save just the one internally and others would need to be saved to the computer. There are more features that make it attractive, plus it comes with an AC adapter. Just a thought. Just playing around with my minidsp 2X4 non HD with 4 way advance plugin. It seems I cannot assign from certain input to certain output. For ex. Input 1 will go to output 1&2 and input 2 will go to output 3&4. Maybe I need to check other plugin with this minidsp.
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Post by ttocs on Feb 10, 2021 13:04:08 GMT -5
Yes, I believe you are correct. You would need to run from the L&R outs to the miniDSP, then out to Fronts and out to Subs. The L&R would be setup as Large, and the miniDSP would do all the heavy lifting. When Dirac measures the Left and Right it will show the frequency range from whatever the subs are capable of up to what the ESL's are capable of. Plus, if you wanted to, you could restrict the bass below the natural rolloff of the ESL's woofer to save it from any possibility of damage at high volume if the frequency was too low. I do this in Dirac where I add Control Points to cut off the bass below 18Hz because neither my Mains nor subs are designed for lower bass than that, at least at high volume anyway. Something to consider is getting the 2x4HD. It will save 4 Configs, and from what I can see in the manual for the non HD version it will save just the one internally and others would need to be saved to the computer. There are more features that make it attractive, plus it comes with an AC adapter. Just a thought. Just playing around with my minidsp 2X4 non HD with 4 way advance plugin. It seems I cannot assign from certain input to certain output. For ex. Input 1 will go to output 1&2 and input 2 will go to output 3&4. Maybe I need to check other plugin with this minidsp. You should be able to Map the Inputs to the Outputs in any way you want. That’s what the HD version does. I know there are non HD users here. Maybe they can chime in?
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Post by p4t on Feb 10, 2021 13:18:51 GMT -5
Just playing around with my minidsp 2X4 non HD with 4 way advance plugin. It seems I cannot assign from certain input to certain output. For ex. Input 1 will go to output 1&2 and input 2 will go to output 3&4. Maybe I need to check other plugin with this minidsp. You should be able to Map the Inputs to the Outputs in any way you want. That’s what the HD version does. I know there are non HD users here. Maybe they can chime in? Just check minidsp wehsite. I think I need to buy 2x4 advance plugin in order can mix any input to any output. Do you EQ ing on minidsp or just do time align and let dirac do the eq ing? Also I have a question, sound silly, but how do you time align betwen your front and subwoofer? Because I can not use REW with ASIO driver. So I am kind of confused how to time align the sub and the front.
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Post by marcl on Feb 10, 2021 13:32:06 GMT -5
You should be able to Map the Inputs to the Outputs in any way you want. That’s what the HD version does. I know there are non HD users here. Maybe they can chime in? Just check minidsp wehsite. I think I need to buy 2x4 advance plugin in order can mix any input to any output. Do you EQ ing on minidsp or just do time align and let dirac do the eq ing? Also I have a question, sound silly, but how do you time align betwen your front and subwoofer? Because I can not use REW with ASIO driver. So I am kind of confused how to time align the sub and the front. I use 2x4 Advanced and can assign any input to any output.
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Post by ttocs on Feb 10, 2021 16:26:32 GMT -5
You should be able to Map the Inputs to the Outputs in any way you want. That’s what the HD version does. I know there are non HD users here. Maybe they can chime in? Just check minidsp wehsite. I think I need to buy 2x4 advance plugin in order can mix any input to any output. Do you EQ ing on minidsp or just do time align and let dirac do the eq ing? Also I have a question, sound silly, but how do you time align betwen your front and subwoofer? Because I can not use REW with ASIO driver. So I am kind of confused how to time align the sub and the front. The setup I have today for the Fronts does not use a miniDSP. miniDSP1 is connected to the Center Sub output for running the LFE. I will need to add a miniDSP2 to be able to integrate that fifth sub in the back of the room with the Fronts. So, when that is connected, then yes, the time alignment will be for aligning the Fronts to that fifth sub. Dirac is last in line. All the aligning and initial tweaks that are possible to make all the puzzle pieces happy with each other is done before running Dirac. But, After Dirac has calibrated EACH speaker, I still check what happens when BOTH FRONTS play a mono signal together, because as good as I can make things work before Dirac, after Dirac it can be messed up so I tweak a little bit. This is all because we don't have DLBC for making multiple bass drivers work together as a group.
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Post by p4t on Feb 10, 2021 21:21:28 GMT -5
Just check minidsp wehsite. I think I need to buy 2x4 advance plugin in order can mix any input to any output. Do you EQ ing on minidsp or just do time align and let dirac do the eq ing? Also I have a question, sound silly, but how do you time align betwen your front and subwoofer? Because I can not use REW with ASIO driver. So I am kind of confused how to time align the sub and the front. I use 2x4 Advanced and can assign any input to any output. Yes, you are right. Maybe I need to buy the license later when I needed. You do use minidsp balanced,right? How many gauge (how big) speaker cable can fit this balanced minidsp? And how you do time alignment between your fronts and the sub, as I cannot use REW asio driver for XMC-2. I got stuck, maybe you can help? Thanks.
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Post by p4t on Feb 10, 2021 21:29:26 GMT -5
Just check minidsp wehsite. I think I need to buy 2x4 advance plugin in order can mix any input to any output. Do you EQ ing on minidsp or just do time align and let dirac do the eq ing? Also I have a question, sound silly, but how do you time align betwen your front and subwoofer? Because I can not use REW with ASIO driver. So I am kind of confused how to time align the sub and the front. The setup I have today for the Fronts does not use a miniDSP. miniDSP1 is connected to the Center Sub output for running the LFE. I will need to add a miniDSP2 to be able to integrate that fifth sub in the back of the room with the Fronts. So, when that is connected, then yes, the time alignment will be for aligning the Fronts to that fifth sub. Dirac is last in line. All the aligning and initial tweaks that are possible to make all the puzzle pieces happy with each other is done before running Dirac. But, After Dirac has calibrated EACH speaker, I still check what happens when BOTH FRONTS play a mono signal together, because as good as I can make things work before Dirac, after Dirac it can be messed up so I tweak a little bit. This is all because we don't have DLBC for making multiple bass drivers work together as a group. I see. Because I have a pair of sub right behind my couch works as mono, I want to connect this to the fronts. I need to align it, just do not know how to do it as I cannot use Asio REW driver for XMC-2. Maybe you can help how to do time alignment between the sub and the fronts. I also asked Marcl about this.
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Post by ttocs on Feb 10, 2021 21:35:44 GMT -5
I see. Because I have a pair of sub right behind my couch works as mono, I want to connect this to the fronts. I need to align it, just do not know how to do it as I cannot use Asio REW driver for XMC-2. Maybe you can help how to do time alignment between the sub and the fronts. I also asked Marcl about this. I don't know anything about ASIO drivers because I use a MacBook Pro, so I just connect my computer to the XMC-2 with a HDMI cable. edit: p4t try looking at this link about ASIO not working in Win10 for some folks due to some apps "not releasing" the driver so other apps can use it. www.avnirvana.com/threads/rew-no-longer-works-with-asio-win10.3912/
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Post by p4t on Feb 11, 2021 12:59:47 GMT -5
I see. Because I have a pair of sub right behind my couch works as mono, I want to connect this to the fronts. I need to align it, just do not know how to do it as I cannot use Asio REW driver for XMC-2. Maybe you can help how to do time alignment between the sub and the fronts. I also asked Marcl about this. I don't know anything about ASIO drivers because I use a MacBook Pro, so I just connect my computer to the XMC-2 with a HDMI cable. edit: p4t try looking at this link about ASIO not working in Win10 for some folks due to some apps "not releasing" the driver so other apps can use it. www.avnirvana.com/threads/rew-no-longer-works-with-asio-win10.3912/Thanks for the info. Today I spent hours running dirac, it kept saying low signal to noise error. Try adjusting the volume or mic it didn’t help. Finally I found out what the cause for not working. Is the subwoofer setting on the xmc menu. IIs not working if you set on the xmc setting: Left/ right sub mono and center sub mono Left/right sub mono and center sub LFE I finally get it to work if I set left/right sub dual mono (both left and right must be connected to sub) and center sub LFE. The way I connected the sub to minidsp is combine left and right sub to input 2 minidsp and then center sub out to minidsp input 2. Both input is output to 4 subwoofer. But when I try to watch movie the bass is better when I set left/right dual mono and center sub mono. When I set left/right dual mono and center sub LFE, the bass just does not sound right. Next probably I will try separate the sub for minidsp input 1 and 2. Input 1 output to pair of JL for center sub LFE and input 2 output to pai of KEF for left/right sub dual mono.
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Post by marcl on Feb 11, 2021 15:22:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. Today I spent hours running dirac, it kept saying low signal to noise error. Try adjusting the volume or mic it didn’t help. Finally I found out what the cause for not working. Is the subwoofer setting on the xmc menu. IIs not working if you set on the xmc setting: Left/ right sub mono and center sub mono Left/right sub mono and center sub LFE I finally get it to work if I set left/right sub dual mono (both left and right must be connected to sub) and center sub LFE. The way I connected the sub to minidsp is combine left and right sub to input 2 minidsp and then center sub out to minidsp input 2. Both input is output to 4 subwoofer. But when I try to watch movie the bass is better when I set left/right dual mono and center sub mono. When I set left/right dual mono and center sub LFE, the bass just does not sound right. Next probably I will try separate the sub for minidsp input 1 and 2. Input 1 output to pair of JL for center sub LFE and input 2 output to pai of KEF for left/right sub dual mono. Are you on firmware 2.1? I think that sub mono bug was fixed in 2.1
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Post by ttocs on Feb 11, 2021 15:57:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. Today I spent hours running dirac, it kept saying low signal to noise error. Try adjusting the volume or mic it didn’t help. Finally I found out what the cause for not working. Is the subwoofer setting on the xmc menu. IIs not working if you set on the xmc setting: Left/ right sub mono and center sub mono Left/right sub mono and center sub LFE I finally get it to work if I set left/right sub dual mono (both left and right must be connected to sub) and center sub LFE. The way I connected the sub to minidsp is combine left and right sub to input 2 minidsp and then center sub out to minidsp input 2. Both input is output to 4 subwoofer. But when I try to watch movie the bass is better when I set left/right dual mono and center sub mono. When I set left/right dual mono and center sub LFE, the bass just does not sound right. Next probably I will try separate the sub for minidsp input 1 and 2. Input 1 output to pair of JL for center sub LFE and input 2 output to pai of KEF for left/right sub dual mono. Sorry, but I'm really confused. Which XMC-2 Subwoofer Output(s) actually have subwoofers and/or miniDSP connected to it/them? Which firmware version is the XMC-2 operating with?
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,966
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Post by KeithL on Feb 11, 2021 16:44:18 GMT -5
There is a know issue with subwoofers and Dirac Live in FW v2.1 .
It will work fine if you have one sub in Center Sub. It will work fine if you have two subs in Left / Right subs. It will work fine if you have three subs in all three.
BUT, if you have one sub, in the Left Sub output, but none in the Right Sub output (whether you have one in the Center Sub or not)... Dirac Live may read the configuration as if there were both Left and Right subs. And it will then fail when it tries to test the Right sub that isn't there.
Thanks for the info. Today I spent hours running dirac, it kept saying low signal to noise error. Try adjusting the volume or mic it didn’t help. Finally I found out what the cause for not working. Is the subwoofer setting on the xmc menu. IIs not working if you set on the xmc setting: Left/ right sub mono and center sub mono Left/right sub mono and center sub LFE I finally get it to work if I set left/right sub dual mono (both left and right must be connected to sub) and center sub LFE. The way I connected the sub to minidsp is combine left and right sub to input 2 minidsp and then center sub out to minidsp input 2. Both input is output to 4 subwoofer. But when I try to watch movie the bass is better when I set left/right dual mono and center sub mono. When I set left/right dual mono and center sub LFE, the bass just does not sound right. Next probably I will try separate the sub for minidsp input 1 and 2. Input 1 output to pair of JL for center sub LFE and input 2 output to pai of KEF for left/right sub dual mono. Sorry, but I'm really confused. Which XMC-2 Subwoofer Output(s) actually have subwoofers and/or miniDSP connected to it/them? Which firmware version is the XMC-2 operating with?
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Post by p4t on Feb 11, 2021 19:42:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. Today I spent hours running dirac, it kept saying low signal to noise error. Try adjusting the volume or mic it didn’t help. Finally I found out what the cause for not working. Is the subwoofer setting on the xmc menu. IIs not working if you set on the xmc setting: Left/ right sub mono and center sub mono Left/right sub mono and center sub LFE I finally get it to work if I set left/right sub dual mono (both left and right must be connected to sub) and center sub LFE. The way I connected the sub to minidsp is combine left and right sub to input 2 minidsp and then center sub out to minidsp input 2. Both input is output to 4 subwoofer. But when I try to watch movie the bass is better when I set left/right dual mono and center sub mono. When I set left/right dual mono and center sub LFE, the bass just does not sound right. Next probably I will try separate the sub for minidsp input 1 and 2. Input 1 output to pair of JL for center sub LFE and input 2 output to pai of KEF for left/right sub dual mono. Are you on firmware 2.1? I think that sub mono bug was fixed in 2.1 Yes,XMC-2 firmware 2.1 and dirac firmware 3.0.11
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Post by p4t on Feb 11, 2021 19:59:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. Today I spent hours running dirac, it kept saying low signal to noise error. Try adjusting the volume or mic it didn’t help. Finally I found out what the cause for not working. Is the subwoofer setting on the xmc menu. IIs not working if you set on the xmc setting: Left/ right sub mono and center sub mono Left/right sub mono and center sub LFE I finally get it to work if I set left/right sub dual mono (both left and right must be connected to sub) and center sub LFE. The way I connected the sub to minidsp is combine left and right sub to input 2 minidsp and then center sub out to minidsp input 2. Both input is output to 4 subwoofer. But when I try to watch movie the bass is better when I set left/right dual mono and center sub mono. When I set left/right dual mono and center sub LFE, the bass just does not sound right. Next probably I will try separate the sub for minidsp input 1 and 2. Input 1 output to pair of JL for center sub LFE and input 2 output to pai of KEF for left/right sub dual mono. Sorry, but I'm really confused. Which XMC-2 Subwoofer Output(s) actually have subwoofers and/or miniDSP connected to it/them? Which firmware version is the XMC-2 operating with? XMC-2 firmware 2.1 and Dirac firmware 3.0.11. My setting is center subwoofer connected to minidsp input 1 and then left subwoofer and right subwoofer out, I combined it become 1 and then go to minidsp input 2. So basically all 3 subwoofer output from xmc-2 connected to minidsp and then drive 4 subwoofers. Only when I tested, I get better sound when I set left/right sub dual mono and center sub mono. When I tried left/right sub dual mono and center sub LFE, just did not sound right. But I am quite impressed with this 2 little KEF subwoofer position it near field, I got much tighter and smoother bass then before (2 JL sub) My room size is around 3000 cubic feet, sealed room. Next I will try minidsp input 1 just drive 2 align JL sub for LFE (center sub) and minidsp input 2 drive 2 align KEF sub (left/right dual mono)
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Post by p4t on Feb 11, 2021 20:01:50 GMT -5
There is a know issue with subwoofers and Dirac Live in FW v2.1 .
It will work fine if you have one sub in Center Sub. It will work fine if you have two subs in Left / Right subs. It will work fine if you have three subs in all three.
BUT, if you have one sub, in the Left Sub output, but none in the Right Sub output (whether you have one in the Center Sub or not)... Dirac Live may read the configuration as if there were both Left and Right subs. And it will then fail when it tries to test the Right sub that isn't there.
Sorry, but I'm really confused. Which XMC-2 Subwoofer Output(s) actually have subwoofers and/or miniDSP connected to it/them? Which firmware version is the XMC-2 operating with? Yes, you are correct. After hours of trying finally I found it the hard way.
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Post by ttocs on Feb 11, 2021 22:24:22 GMT -5
Just updated Post #2 to reflect that it will be used for Perpetual Current System Setup.
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Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
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Post by Germotiva on Feb 12, 2021 16:45:27 GMT -5
Hello from Germany. i apologize for my bad english. I try to use Google translation. interesting topic here, with the bass routing. I also follow this and experiment with the bass routes. with the new rmc1l i have better conditions than with my old umc1. i used a dsp from the carhifi from a german manufacturer. this dsp allows me many settings and a exzellent Routing. if someone is interested in what the dsp can do. here the english manuel. www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/knowledge-base/DSP-PC-Tool/io/. Here my first attempt with 4 15 "subs via the referenc output in the dsp. The Fq diagram is without interference from eq or x-over. Signal 15-300Hz from REW. This weekend i will test several bass routings with the helix dsp . From the Center-Bass Output, LFE/Mono this was my old fq from the umc1 with EQ
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Post by ttocs on Feb 12, 2021 17:53:53 GMT -5
Hello from Germany. i apologize for my bad english. I try to use Google translation. interesting topic here, with the bass routing. I also follow this and experiment with the bass routes. with the new rmc1l i have better conditions than with my old umc1. i used a dsp from the carhifi from a german manufacturer. this dsp allows me many settings and a exzellent Routing. if someone is interested in what the dsp can do. here the english manuel. www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/knowledge-base/DSP-PC-Tool/io/. Here my first attempt with 4 15 "subs via the referenc output in the dsp. View AttachmentThe Fq diagram is without interference from eq or x-over. Signal 15-300Hz from REW. This weekend i will test several bass routings with the helix dsp . From the Center-Bass Output, LFE/Mono
this was my old fq from the umc1 with EQ View AttachmentGermotiva, welcome! So the Fischer DSP is similar to miniDSP? But is the Fischer made for automobiles? I am only trying to understand the product please. The measurements look good. I am confused about one thing. You say "From the Center-Bass Output, LFE/Mono". Is the Center Sub Output setup as LFE, or Mono? It looks to me like the REW plot is with the sub setup as Mono, is this correct?
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Post by leonski on Feb 12, 2021 18:23:02 GMT -5
I've got a question about HT. Are the bass channels L / R or summed? what is the difference between LFE and low bass?
I know in music, everything seems to be mixed to mono below maybe 80hz or so.....
I can see this being different for THEATERS where you have much more space and can resolve longer wavelengths, (lower frequency) but in a Home system?
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