|
Post by ttocs on Mar 16, 2021 17:30:39 GMT -5
Germotiva I'm curious about your method for getting the timing correct between your DSP's. What do you use for that? I did not forget you. But it's difficult for me at my age to write in English; it's not my mother tongue. i have never written english and my school english was 40 years ago. I try my best and try google translation. Unfortunately, I cannot control what the machine translates and what is understandable. I try to make it easier to understand with the help of pictures. I am currently preparing everything. You write English very well! No rush, I'm interested to know what your process is to align the different DSP devices. I know you recently received Dirac and it will do alignment, but before Dirac, how did you do it?
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 16, 2021 17:37:43 GMT -5
ttocs i'm not a professional in calibrating. i am a beginner in contrast to you. I started learning REW a year ago, I still have much to learn!! please don't trust me if I'm doing everything right. i can only check with my ears whether i hear the settings and improvements. Ears are the best microphones for me and notice improvements in what i do. I 100% agree! I am sometimes amazed at how close I get with my ears before I start to measure. I'll show you what I pay attention to and how I try to best adjust it. It won't be anything new for you. I will show you by means of measurements how I adjust my 12 "midbass in the first attempt. I am still looking for the best mixture of rew and my calibration system of the dsp. I only hope the translation of google translation is understandable. You are obviously getting great results! And I enjoy your input. The translating is working fine. I work with people from different home Countries and some don't speak English very much, but I'm able to communicate with them very well. They are surprised at how much I understand when they are talking to each other, but it is because there are many things that can be understood from different languages.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 16, 2021 17:38:14 GMT -5
I measure the four 12 "in the FQ at my reference place. Then I control the impulses of the individual channels on rew and set this with delay. Then I check the phase of the individual channels of the 12 ". And then measure the sum of all channels to see if subtration is taking place. (see above green line) If the fq is linear, the phase should also match. and then i can adjust the band bass in the dsp so that the flank fits in phase, so that later with the sub and the high / mids there is a subtration at the x-over takes place. Black line ist the Resultat.The purple line, as already mentioned, is the sum of the 12 "+15" to see changes and to be able to compare them.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 16, 2021 18:14:22 GMT -5
Oh i forgot the groupdelay.both left, both right, both above and both below. Both Left,both Right and sum(L+R) In the Front. Later there will be four 12 "mid-basses for the center (tri-center) in the middle. I'm not there yet and I don't have the dsp. i hear (see) films with the phantom center. unfortunately I have to go to bed. must work to be able to buy two more dsp😂. I'm putting together a little trinnov 😂. it can't be compared, but it's going in the right direction. tomorrow I'll show the 4 15 "subs measurements. I hope I've saved them. I'll also show you how to measure the dsp to get the latency of the dsp in and out. Good night
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Mar 17, 2021 1:31:18 GMT -5
Thank you. Only a few DB differences do you have. I have 10dB difference when I switch to all stereo. The stereo front is 10dB quietly than at the front in surround mode. I use the second speaker prents for all stereo. The DIRAC will start using when everything is set with the DSP. This can still take and takes a lot of time. Hier my preliminary result of the 4 12 " Midbass(Bandpass50-150Hz) in the Front 0 dB on RMC. View AttachmentView Attachment And this -20db(Rmc) with the Subs on x-over 50Hz/24db View AttachmentA 'few db'? 10db is a LOT and represents 10X the power. So if your sub at your normal listening level is 5 watts continuous and 50 watt peaks (10X crest factor, is usual) then with a addiitonal 10db it climbs to 50 watts continuous and 500 peak.......a pretty substantial leap,
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 17, 2021 8:11:04 GMT -5
Thank you. Only a few DB differences do you have. I have 10dB difference when I switch to all stereo. The stereo front is 10dB quietly than at the front in surround mode. I use the second speaker prents for all stereo. The DIRAC will start using when everything is set with the DSP. This can still take and takes a lot of time. Hier my preliminary result of the 4 12 " Midbass(Bandpass50-150Hz) in the Front 0 dB on RMC. View AttachmentView Attachment And this -20db(Rmc) with the Subs on x-over 50Hz/24db View AttachmentA 'few db'? 10db is a LOT and represents 10X the power. So if your sub at your normal listening level is 5 watts continuous and 50 watt peaks (10X crest factor, is usual) then with a addiitonal 10db it climbs to 50 watts continuous and 500 peak.......a pretty substantial leap, He's only talking about the difference on only the Fronts when switching to All Stereo mode from any other. The reason for the drop is due to the fact that all speakers are now active with the same signal instead of only two or three being the main speakers in a surround mode. And you might want to look at his system setup because the math gets easier when you see how many speakers he has. The more there are, the greater the drop in output of the Fronts when the switch to All Stereo happens because all those previously non-active speakers kick in and start making noise.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 17, 2021 16:23:49 GMT -5
Can it also be that I use the front in the DSU without a center. And the energy is routed from the center to L + R and thus the speakers R + L are louder. And if I use all stereo, the front L + R are also quieter
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 17, 2021 16:41:29 GMT -5
Can it also be that I use the front in the DSU without a center. And the energy is routed from the center to L + R and thus the speakers R + L are louder. And if I use all stereo, the front L + R are also quieter Good point. Yes. I think that how much quieter the Fronts play when switched to All Stereo is directly related to system setup and will be different under different conditions. The bottom line is that all of the speakers in the system are playing in All Stereo vs only some in any other mode. There will be a drop in volume for the most active channels and an increase for the least active channels. I use All Stereo mostly when I'm expecting to work for a long time the kitchen area of my multi purpose room and turn off the tube amps for the Front Channels. I do this because I simply don't want to use my tube amps for less important system usage, plus the speakers closer to the kitchen are easier to hear when making kitchen noise.
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 20, 2021 20:09:40 GMT -5
Since running the Center Channel as Large starting this week, and using a 10 year old Rel R-218 10" sub dedicated for just the Center Channel, the sound from the Center Speaker has never been better. Did a quick Dirac run today and things are good.
Also today I got the second miniDSP running for sub smoothing duties for the Left and Right channels. The Left and Right are Y'd from the XMC-2 outputs and those are input to miniDSP2, then one output to Sub5 using a different input than the LFE/BM Groups use. So this sub can now be used for Reference Stereo. There's more work to do with the variations in usage, Ref Stereo, Dirac, Left-or-Right channels vs Left-And-Right. All of these present different challenges.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 27, 2021 18:01:58 GMT -5
Hallo Ttocs, ich habe das REW-Signal wieder im DSU-Modus und in der Stereoanlage gemessen. Hier ist das Ergebnis. X-over 50Hz,Sub + Midbasse vorne. Blau ist DSU und Red Allstereo.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 27, 2021 18:08:06 GMT -5
Why am I doing this. Have you ever sent external signal to the individual channels to the RMC. Menu Volume mode Signal OFF for external signal.The goes only in conjunction with all stereo. I would like to use this to measure the individual channels and coordinate them. After that I would use the DIRAC. After that I would use the DIRAC. Danach würde ich die Dirac benutzen. Why? REW can not send 16 channels.
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 27, 2021 18:12:08 GMT -5
Hallo Ttocs, ich habe das REW-Signal wieder im DSU-Modus und in der Stereoanlage gemessen. Hier ist das Ergebnis. Sub + Midbasse vorne. Blau ist DSU und Red Allstereo. View AttachmentInteresting. So All Stereo is elevating the bass, and the frequencies above a crossover? look like they are using a Low Shelf of about -10dB.
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 27, 2021 18:17:44 GMT -5
Why am I doing this. Have you ever sent external signal to the individual channels to the RMC. Menu Volume mode Signal OFF for external signal.The goes only in conjunction with all stereo. Are you talking about Menu:: Setup:: Speakers:: Preset 1:: Levels:: Test Tone:: Off ? I have used external tones for that, but it was more work and did not change much. I have used a Dolby ATMOS disc with tones on it and it works pretty well, but again, it is more work and no real improvement. I happen to have the mic setup so I will test what I think you did.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 27, 2021 18:26:38 GMT -5
Why am I doing this. Have you ever sent external signal to the individual channels to the RMC. Menu Volume mode Signal OFF for external signal.The goes only in conjunction with all stereo. Are you talking about Menu:: Setup:: Speakers:: Preset 1:: Levels:: Test Tone:: Off ? I have used external tones for that, but it was more work and did not change much. 👍 Yes , than I can use the Sweep of REW.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 27, 2021 18:42:52 GMT -5
Yes Test the Center sub-output with Mono / LFE with enh .Bass Large-LS and out of enh.Bass Small 40Hz. WITH EXTERN SIGNAL Menü Volume OFF with all Stereo. 🤔LFE is Not loud 😢. The LFE is open No X-Over, but different with ent.bass and without. Pink All Stereo Mono enh.Bass Blue DSU Mono enh.Bass Green LFE with enh.Bass without. Here is a test all stereo with sub/Mono the x-over / 24db from the rmc. pink/Magenta And with 12dB (RMC) + 12dB with my DSP. Brown
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 27, 2021 19:38:17 GMT -5
Germotiva this is the Large Front Left speaker. Blue = DSU or Surround, both are the same Red = All Stereo Solid Lines are USER EQ Dashed Lines are Dirac EQ With USER EQ the All Stereo is about 5dB separation from low to high. With Dirac EQ, All Stereo is separated up to around 1kHz and then about the same. Weird. This brings up something. The change in audio mode, DSU or All Stereo, changes how a Dirac EQ is rendered vs USER EQ. With USER the level is mostly consistent from low to high. But with Dirac there is a tilt happening to All Stereo that begins at 80Hz and rises in dB level as the frequency increases. It is understandable that All Stereo would reduce the volume of a single channel, because all other channels will be active. So the volume level being reduced by 5dB is something I would expect, and maybe even more, but that level should remain consistent from 20Hz-20kHz. What is not understandable to me is the fact that it is the Dirac EQ that is affected. There is no Bass Management happening with a Large Channel, so the level should not change throughout the frequency range.
|
|
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 27, 2021 19:45:18 GMT -5
Yes Test the sub-output with Mono / LFE with ent.Bass Large-LS and out of ent.Bass Small 40Hz. 🤔LFE is Not loud 😢. The LFE is open No X-Over, but different with ent.bass and without. Pink All Stereo Mono ent.Bass Blue DSU Mono ent.Bass Green LFE with ent.Bass without. Here is a test all stereo with sub/Mono the x-over / 24db from the rmc. pink/Magenta And with 12dB (RMC) + 12dB with my DSP. Brown Sorry, I need help to understand this please. What is "ent.Bass" ? I am using Center Sub output setup for LFE. Left Sub output setup for Mono for Bass Management.
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 27, 2021 19:54:37 GMT -5
Sorry enhanced Bass .Thanks I have corrected it up and completed
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 27, 2021 19:59:23 GMT -5
Germotiva this is the Large Front Left speaker. Blue = DSU or Surround, both are the same Red = All Stereo Solid Lines are USER EQ Dashed Lines are Dirac EQ View AttachmentWith USER EQ the All Stereo is about 5dB separation from low to high. With Dirac EQ, All Stereo is separated up to around 1kHz and then about the same. Weird. This brings up something. The change in audio mode, DSU or All Stereo, changes how a Dirac EQ is rendered vs USER EQ. With USER the level is mostly consistent from low to high. But with Dirac there is a tilt happening to All Stereo that begins at 80Hz and rises in dB level as the frequency increases. It is understandable that All Stereo would reduce the volume of a single channel, because all other channels will be active. So the volume level being reduced by 5dB is something I would expect, and maybe even more, but that level should remain consistent from 20Hz-20kHz. What is not understandable to me is the fact that it is the Dirac EQ that is affected. There is no Bass Management happening with a Large Channel, so the level should not change throughout the frequency range. Yes, it is somewhat strange. Maybe it is due to all stereo that the X-Over from the RMC does not separate correctly. Last message from me.Only measure the sub-out Center
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Mar 27, 2021 20:07:46 GMT -5
Oh i must go sleep...See you Good Night its 3 clock in the Night 🌗 would not my english be so bad we could make calls😔
|
|