ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jun 11, 2021 18:12:22 GMT -5
So my first time venturing into the deep end thread (sub pun), this probably belongs in the Dirac thread, but being sub related I though I’d start here. So this question is specific to the G3P with Dirac and a pair of symmetrically placed subs in a symmetrical room. Much experience has said that with such a setup, the best way to run this would be a Y cable out of the Center sub channel and off to the two subs. Let’s say we do that, run Dirac, apply our filters and go on about life as a happy camper. But wait, I hate Y cables! What if now I remove the Y cable and plug the individual subs back into the L&R Sub outs, set Center sub to none, and L/R Sub to Dual Mono? I’m thinking LFE content might not be any different, what about sub output below the crossover point? Will Dirac speak to me in the morning or is this a one night stand? 🔊😎 🔊 The two scenarios are: Both subs are seen as one by Dirac and calibrated as such. Each sub is seen as one, therefore there are two individual subs and each are calibrated separately. The first scenario is the best bet and longest term relationship. Adjust both subs together as best you can, phase, gain, etc, then let Dirac calibrate just the single sub channel. The second scenario is fraught with issues which the current Dirac cannot do anything about. Each sub alone will be better with Dirac, but both subs playing the same bass together will cause peaks/nulls which will most likely be way worse than just using a single sub all by itself and taking the second sub out of the system. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 11, 2021 18:22:44 GMT -5
So my first time venturing into the deep end thread (sub pun), this probably belongs in the Dirac thread, but being sub related I though I’d start here. So this question is specific to the G3P with Dirac and a pair of symmetrically placed subs in a symmetrical room. Much experience has said that with such a setup, the best way to run this would be a Y cable out of the Center sub channel and off to the two subs. Let’s say we do that, run Dirac, apply our filters and go on about life as a happy camper. But wait, I hate Y cables! What if now I remove the Y cable and plug the individual subs back into the L&R Sub outs, set Center sub to none, and L/R Sub to Dual Mono? I’m thinking LFE content might not be any different, what about sub output below the crossover point? Will Dirac speak to me in the morning or is this a one night stand? 🔊😎 🔊 The two scenarios are: Both subs are seen as one by Dirac and calibrated as such. Each sub is seen as one, therefore there are two individual subs and each are calibrated separately. The first scenario is the best bet and longest term relationship. Adjust both subs together as best you can, phase, gain, etc, then let Dirac calibrate just the single sub channel. The second scenario is fraught with issues which the current Dirac cannot do anything about. Each sub alone will be better with Dirac, but both subs playing the same bass together will cause peaks/nulls which will most likely be way worse than just using a single sub all by itself and taking the second sub out of the system. Not sure you caught my drift, I’m not going to run Dirac again, it was already run with Center Y as a single sub, so as far as I know there is only one sub filter. Will that ‘sub’ filter be applied to the L/R outs the same as the Center where it was measured, or will it only be applied to the center channel, and the L/R will be uncorrected, I suppose I might have to measure the outputs to know that. Wish the G3P had a L/R virtual Y. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jun 11, 2021 18:35:22 GMT -5
The two scenarios are: Both subs are seen as one by Dirac and calibrated as such. Each sub is seen as one, therefore there are two individual subs and each are calibrated separately. The first scenario is the best bet and longest term relationship. Adjust both subs together as best you can, phase, gain, etc, then let Dirac calibrate just the single sub channel. The second scenario is fraught with issues which the current Dirac cannot do anything about. Each sub alone will be better with Dirac, but both subs playing the same bass together will cause peaks/nulls which will most likely be way worse than just using a single sub all by itself and taking the second sub out of the system. Not sure you caught my drift, I’m not going to run Dirac again, it was already run with Center Y as a single sub, so as far as I know there is only one sub filter. Will that ‘sub’ filter be applied to the L/R outs the same as the Center where it was measured, or will it only be applied to the center channel, and the L/R will be uncorrected, I suppose I might have to measure the outputs to know that. Wish the G3P had a L/R virtual Y. aaaaaaahhhhhh, Dirac only corrects the channels it sees. If the L/R were not populated then there will be no correction to those channels. Several ways to skin this cat. Y cable to both subs to one type of input, like LFE. Then Left Sub output to the XO input on the Left sub and set the sub's XO all the way up, and do the same from the Right Sub output to the Right Sub. I use two types of inputs on all of my subs for various reasons. |
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Post by leonski on Jun 11, 2021 21:01:04 GMT -5
I'm told music is mixed to MONO below maybe 80hz or so.......I would expect movies to do something similar, allowing the overtones to determine location and movement of such sounds / effects.....
I'm not certain that with a PAIR of subs a symmetric location in a symetric room would be the best technique to get even, distributed LF response. Such an arrangement might excite the room in a similar pattern......
You gotta sort of learn to SEE the sound...
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 12, 2021 3:34:05 GMT -5
Not sure you caught my drift, I’m not going to run Dirac again, it was already run with Center Y as a single sub, so as far as I know there is only one sub filter. Will that ‘sub’ filter be applied to the L/R outs the same as the Center where it was measured, or will it only be applied to the center channel, and the L/R will be uncorrected, I suppose I might have to measure the outputs to know that. Wish the G3P had a L/R virtual Y. aaaaaaahhhhhh, Dirac only corrects the channels it sees. If the L/R were not populated then there will be no correction to those channels. Several ways to skin this cat. Y cable to both subs to one type of input, like LFE. Then Left Sub output to the XO input on the Left sub and set the sub's XO all the way up, and do the same from the Right Sub output to the Right Sub. I use two types of inputs on all of my subs for various reasons. My main goal was to get rid of that Y, and have a second sub channel for the two channel system, I got carried away cleaning 🧹 With the 2C user preset and Dirac off it sounds pretty good, but tubby on the HT preset.. Should have thought of the empty channels during the Dirac run, think my neighbor visited a little too long 🍻 it’s easy to put the Y back, still would like the virtual Y. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jun 24, 2021 10:47:20 GMT -5
aaaaaaahhhhhh, Dirac only corrects the channels it sees. If the L/R were not populated then there will be no correction to those channels. Several ways to skin this cat. Y cable to both subs to one type of input, like LFE. Then Left Sub output to the XO input on the Left sub and set the sub's XO all the way up, and do the same from the Right Sub output to the Right Sub. I use two types of inputs on all of my subs for various reasons. My main goal was to get rid of that Y, and have a second sub channel for the two channel system, I got carried away cleaning 🧹 With the 2C user preset and Dirac off it sounds pretty good, but tubby on the HT preset.. Should have thought of the empty channels during the Dirac run, think my neighbor visited a little too long 🍻 it’s easy to put the Y back, still would like the virtual Y. Use the V-SUB transmitter from the Center Sub Output, and put a receiver on each of the subwoofers for the Virtual Y. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 24, 2021 11:22:43 GMT -5
My main goal was to get rid of that Y, and have a second sub channel for the two channel system, I got carried away cleaning 🧹 With the 2C user preset and Dirac off it sounds pretty good, but tubby on the HT preset.. Should have thought of the empty channels during the Dirac run, think my neighbor visited a little too long 🍻 it’s easy to put the Y back, still would like the virtual Y. Use the V-SUB transmitter from the Center Sub Output, and put a receiver on each of the subwoofers for the Virtual Y. No, the physical Y worked fine, my goal is fewer connections, fewer devices. The Virtual-Y (patent pending) would allow us to connect each sub ‘where it belongs’ (L2L, R2R) and have (if Emo implemented it) VY’d center configuration for HT on Preset 1, and Stereo config for 2C on Preset 2. I realize I’m dreaming, as I doubt many care about this, and I have no idea how difficult it would be or if it’s even possible. So it’s not likely to make it high on anyone’s feature list. However, I probably wouldn’t buy the proposed 4 port sub module if it couldn’t do this, or might buy one if it could (though I’d still prefer the current outputs). I envision someday adding an infinite baffle LFE sub to the VOG location of my vaulted ceiling, and connect it to the Center channel out. Aside from some eye-rolling from my wife when I propose that project, I’m also concerned about exciting resonances in the structure. |
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Post by p4t on Jul 4, 2021 12:41:32 GMT -5
My main goal was to get rid of that Y, and have a second sub channel for the two channel system, I got carried away cleaning 🧹 With the 2C user preset and Dirac off it sounds pretty good, but tubby on the HT preset.. Should have thought of the empty channels during the Dirac run, think my neighbor visited a little too long 🍻 it’s easy to put the Y back, still would like the virtual Y. Use the V-SUB transmitter from the Center Sub Output, and put a receiver on each of the subwoofers for the Virtual Y. Hi TTOCS. I need some advice about what the best way to connect all my subwoofers. Right now I have 2 SVS SB3000 located one in front left corner and front right corner (equal distant to MLP), 2 KEF KC62 located on rear left corner and rear right corner (equal distant to MLP) and 1 JL E112 sub (supposed to be 2 but right now one sub being fix) located on center rear wall. and 1 minidsp 2X4. What is the best setup do you think will have the best sound? My plan is set a pair of SB3000 as one and Connected to minidsp output 1. Then set a pair of KEF KC62 as one and connected to minidsp output 2. And lastly JL E112 connected to minidsp output 3. Then I sync output 1 and 2 so act as one subwoofer (no PEQ just gain and time delay/phase and let dirac do the PEQ)). After this connected Center subwoofer as LFE to minidsp input 1 and output 3. And connected left subwoofer to minidsp input 2 and output 1 and 2. What do you think? |
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Post by leonski on Jul 4, 2021 14:46:53 GMT -5
Use the V-SUB transmitter from the Center Sub Output, and put a receiver on each of the subwoofers for the Virtual Y. No, the physical Y worked fine, my goal is fewer connections, fewer devices. The Virtual-Y (patent pending) would allow us to connect each sub ‘where it belongs’ (L2L, R2R) and have (if Emo implemented it) VY’d center configuration for HT on Preset 1, and Stereo config for 2C on Preset 2. I realize I’m dreaming, as I doubt many care about this, and I have no idea how difficult it would be or if it’s even possible. So it’s not likely to make it high on anyone’s feature list. However, I probably wouldn’t buy the proposed 4 port sub module if it couldn’t do this, or might buy one if it could (though I’d still prefer the current outputs). I envision someday adding an infinite baffle LFE sub to the VOG location of my vaulted ceiling, and connect it to the Center channel out. Aside from some eye-rolling from my wife when I propose that project, I’m also concerned about exciting resonances in the structure. Eye Rolling from Wife? You might be nearing the 'edge'........The ONLY structural resonance I'd be worried about would be the one where Spouse Goes Ballistic! Other than that, unless you can pump 20kw or 30kw INTO the structure at a given frequency, you don't have much to worry about. Sure, I can get the windows to rattle or stuff hung on the WALLS to do the same, but I think the building is good for a while yet..... |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 4, 2021 16:16:50 GMT -5
Use the V-SUB transmitter from the Center Sub Output, and put a receiver on each of the subwoofers for the Virtual Y. Hi TTOCS. I need some advice about what the best way to connect all my subwoofers. Right now I have 2 SVS SB3000 located one in front left corner and front right corner (equal distant to MLP), 2 KEF KC62 located on rear left corner and rear right corner (equal distant to MLP) and 1 JL E112 sub (supposed to be 2 but right now one sub being fix) located on center rear wall. and 1 minidsp 2X4. What is the best setup do you think will have the best sound? My plan is set a pair of SB3000 as one and Connected to minidsp output 1. Then set a pair of KEF KC62 as one and connected to minidsp output 2. And lastly JL E112 connected to minidsp output 3. Then I sync output 1 and 2 so act as one subwoofer (no PEQ just gain and time delay/phase and let dirac do the PEQ)). After this connected Center subwoofer as LFE to minidsp input 1 and output 3. And connected left subwoofer to minidsp input 2 and output 1 and 2. What do you think? Ok, let's see if I'm tracking with you first. In the diagram I show the two front subs in corners, the two rear subs in the middle of the wall, and the location for the JL sub is unknown. Is this approximately correct?  This is not taking into account any openings to the room like doors and windows, as I'm just shooting in the dark so far, so if you could fill in the blanks that would help. In you signature you list two JL subs. So do you have 3 pair of subs? or two pair and a single? I think in the long run, connecting each sub to its own output of the miniDSP is a better approach. Expect things to change. I was totally open to things changing as I tested each idea. I just went where improved results led me. Because of what I ended up with in my setup I will also suggest for yours. Yes, I tried to use some subs for LFE and other subs for BM, but ended up with one group for both. The logic is this, if using the best subwoofer locations in my room are good for one, why not both? (LFE and BM) The caveats to this are dedicated subwoofers for the LCR channels, one subwoofer for the Center Speaker, and a special setup for each of the Fronts. Otherwise, it's just 3 subwoofers for BM, and the same 3 subs for LFE, with individual control for Levels. |
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Post by p4t on Jul 4, 2021 21:59:29 GMT -5
Hi TTOCS. I need some advice about what the best way to connect all my subwoofers. Right now I have 2 SVS SB3000 located one in front left corner and front right corner (equal distant to MLP), 2 KEF KC62 located on rear left corner and rear right corner (equal distant to MLP) and 1 JL E112 sub (supposed to be 2 but right now one sub being fix) located on center rear wall. and 1 minidsp 2X4. What is the best setup do you think will have the best sound? My plan is set a pair of SB3000 as one and Connected to minidsp output 1. Then set a pair of KEF KC62 as one and connected to minidsp output 2. And lastly JL E112 connected to minidsp output 3. Then I sync output 1 and 2 so act as one subwoofer (no PEQ just gain and time delay/phase and let dirac do the PEQ)). After this connected Center subwoofer as LFE to minidsp input 1 and output 3. And connected left subwoofer to minidsp input 2 and output 1 and 2. What do you think? Ok, let's see if I'm tracking with you first. In the diagram I show the two front subs in corners, the two rear subs in the middle of the wall, and the location for the JL sub is unknown. Is this approximately correct? View AttachmentThis is not taking into account any openings to the room like doors and windows, as I'm just shooting in the dark so far, so if you could fill in the blanks that would help. In you signature you list two JL subs. So do you have 3 pair of subs? or two pair and a single? I think in the long run, connecting each sub to its own output of the miniDSP is a better approach. Expect things to change. I was totally open to things changing as I tested each idea. I just went where improved results led me. Because of what I ended up with in my setup I will also suggest for yours. Yes, I tried to use some subs for LFE and other subs for BM, but ended up with one group for both. The logic is this, if using the best subwoofer locations in my room are good for one, why not both? (LFE and BM) The caveats to this are dedicated subwoofers for the LCR channels, one subwoofer for the Center Speaker, and a special setup for each of the Fronts. Otherwise, it's just 3 subwoofers for BM, and the same 3 subs for LFE , with individual control for Levels. Hi. 2 SVS SB3000 in the front located in each corner. 2 KEF KC62 located on the back wall on each corner. 1 JL E112 on the middle back wall (so far total 5 subwoofers as 1 of my JL being fixed right now). And to make things short, my plan is 2 sb3000 (minisdsp output 1) and 2 KC62 (minidsp output 2) work as 1 subwoofer and connected to xmc2 left subwoofer to minidsp input 1. Then my JL (output 3) connected to xmc2 center subwoofer to minidsp input2. Basically 2 SB3000 and 2 KC62 dedicated for BM and JL dedicated to LFE. And I have a questions, does the bass information signal for left subwoofer and LFE the same? Or different? Thanks Attachments:
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 5, 2021 9:04:35 GMT -5
Over 20 years ago, I started with subwoofer implementation to reach below 20HZ and to protect my conventional 10 “ drivers from over excursion.
Common sense approach with the aid of some professional advice and a dose of common sense…..
Got it right and what a great ride it has been.
Respectfully, I have to say that no other thread I’ve followed (or tried to) has ever blown my head apart more than this one. WAAAYYYY TOOO COMPLICATED….is all I wanted to say like struggling to learn a second language.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 5, 2021 9:59:16 GMT -5
Ok, let's see if I'm tracking with you first. In the diagram I show the two front subs in corners, the two rear subs in the middle of the wall, and the location for the JL sub is unknown. Is this approximately correct? View AttachmentThis is not taking into account any openings to the room like doors and windows, as I'm just shooting in the dark so far, so if you could fill in the blanks that would help. In you signature you list two JL subs. So do you have 3 pair of subs? or two pair and a single? I think in the long run, connecting each sub to its own output of the miniDSP is a better approach. Expect things to change. I was totally open to things changing as I tested each idea. I just went where improved results led me. Because of what I ended up with in my setup I will also suggest for yours. Yes, I tried to use some subs for LFE and other subs for BM, but ended up with one group for both. The logic is this, if using the best subwoofer locations in my room are good for one, why not both? (LFE and BM) The caveats to this are dedicated subwoofers for the LCR channels, one subwoofer for the Center Speaker, and a special setup for each of the Fronts. Otherwise, it's just 3 subwoofers for BM, and the same 3 subs for LFE , with individual control for Levels. Hi. 2 SVS SB3000 in the front located in each corner. 2 KEF KC62 located on the back wall on each corner. 1 JL E112 on the middle back wall (so far total 5 subwoofers as 1 of my JL being fixed right now). And to make things short, my plan is 2 sb3000 (minisdsp output 1) and 2 KC62 (minidsp output 2) work as 1 subwoofer and connected to xmc2 left subwoofer to minidsp input 1. Then my JL (output 3) connected to xmc2 center subwoofer to minidsp input2. Basically 2 SB3000 and 2 KC62 dedicated for BM and JL dedicated to LFE. And I have a questions, does the bass information signal for left subwoofer and LFE the same? Or different? Thanks Do each of your subs have variable phase/timing? If so, then your plan to Y them together in pairs will work, but as I said, it is not quite as flexible as connecting each one to a miniDSP output, but it's worth trying. So you will have 5 subs connected to the miniDSP. You want to use 4 of them for Bass Management, and 1 for LFE. You may find that you want the JL sub to only be for LFE, but also use the 2 front subs to help smooth the LFE by being located differently. You have lots of possible configurations of sub locations to work with. How it will finally workout will be known once you begin aligning them. Bass Management is simply the bass for any channel setup as Small. The subwoofer set for Mono or Dual Mono will get the bass below the selected crossover setting in the processor. LFE is the .1 channel. It will never get any Bass Management bass for any Small channel. When the Center Sub Channel is setup as LFE, this will be the only channel to receive LFE .1 signals. Setting up the processor to use multiple subwoofer channels for the bass duties will allow for better bass control. This is how I adjusted the BM and LFE channels to be at the correct levels. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 5, 2021 10:51:36 GMT -5
… I envision someday adding an infinite baffle LFE sub to the VOG location of my vaulted ceiling, and connect it to the Center channel out. …I’m also concerned about exciting resonances in the structure. … Other than that, unless you can pump 20kw or 30kw INTO the structure at a given frequency, you don't have much to worry about. Sure, I can get the windows to rattle or stuff hung on the WALLS to do the same, but I think the building is good for a while yet..... I’m not worried about ‘bringing the house down’, but I am concerned about a driver mounted in the ceiling causing it to become a large vibrating membrane. It’s similar to the reason subwoofers have feet (and optional products like Sub Dudes) to decouple them from the floor. Usually we think about standing wave resonance, but structure resonance is also a concern, especially in raised floor (non slab) homes. Thinking more about the Virtual Y ©, DLBCMS should be the better solution to this issue (and a higher priority). Present Dirac with multiple sub channels and let it work out presenting a united front. |
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Post by p4t on Jul 5, 2021 12:12:53 GMT -5
Hi. 2 SVS SB3000 in the front located in each corner. 2 KEF KC62 located on the back wall on each corner. 1 JL E112 on the middle back wall (so far total 5 subwoofers as 1 of my JL being fixed right now). And to make things short, my plan is 2 sb3000 (minisdsp output 1) and 2 KC62 (minidsp output 2) work as 1 subwoofer and connected to xmc2 left subwoofer to minidsp input 1. Then my JL (output 3) connected to xmc2 center subwoofer to minidsp input2. Basically 2 SB3000 and 2 KC62 dedicated for BM and JL dedicated to LFE. And I have a questions, does the bass information signal for left subwoofer and LFE the same? Or different? Thanks Do each of your subs have variable phase/timing? If so, then your plan to Y them together in pairs will work, but as I said, it is not quite as flexible as connecting each one to a miniDSP output, but it's worth trying. So you will have 5 subs connected to the miniDSP. You want to use 4 of them for Bass Management, and 1 for LFE. You may find that you want the JL sub to only be for LFE, but also use the 2 front subs to help smooth the LFE by being located differently. You have lots of possible configurations of sub locations to work with. How it will finally workout will be known once you begin aligning them. Bass Management is simply the bass for any channel setup as Small. The subwoofer set for Mono or Dual Mono will get the bass below the selected crossover setting in the processor. LFE is the .1 channel. It will never get any Bass Management bass for any Small channel. When the Center Sub Channel is setup as LFE, this will be the only channel to receive LFE .1 signals. Setting up the processor to use multiple subwoofer channels for the bass duties will allow for better bass control. This is how I adjusted the BM and LFE channels to be at the correct levels. My JL and SB3000 have variable phase. I can use Y adapter either for the front subs (2 SB3000 equal distance from MLP) or rear subs (2 KC62 equal distance from MLP), and I did check using minidsp by assign each output to each subwoofer separately and the best summation for 2 SB3000 by adding no time delay. So does for the 2 KC62. I just read XMC2 manual again and it says signal from Left/right subwoofer and center subwoofer the same, correct? In that case, I am thinking connected the sub like this: XMC2 left/right sub out -> Minidsp input 1 -> output 1 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) XMC2 center sub out (LFE) -> Minidsp input 2 -> output 2 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & (JL E112) OR XMC2 left/right sub out (MONO) -> Minidsp input 1 -> output 1 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & output 3 (JL E112) XMC2 center sub out (LFE) -> Minidsp input 2 -> output 2 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & output 3 (JL E112) Which one do you think work better? Or do you have any better suggestions? Thanks. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 5, 2021 13:08:13 GMT -5
My JL and SB3000 have variable phase. I can use Y adapter either for the front subs (2 SB3000 equal distance from MLP) or rear subs (2 KC62 equal distance from MLP), and I did check using minidsp by assign each output to each subwoofer separately and the best summation for 2 SB3000 by adding no time delay. So does for the 2 KC62. I just read XMC2 manual again and it says signal from Left/right subwoofer and center subwoofer the same, correct? In that case, I am thinking connected the sub like this: XMC2 left/right sub out -> Minidsp input 1 -> output 1 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) XMC2 center sub out (LFE) -> Minidsp input 2 -> output 2 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & (JL E112) OR XMC2 left/right sub out (MONO) -> Minidsp input 1 -> output 1 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & output 3 (JL E112) XMC2 center sub out (LFE) -> Minidsp input 2 -> output 2 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & output 3 (JL E112) Which one do you think work better? Or do you have any better suggestions? Thanks. The three subwoofer outputs from the processor are identical when all are setup for any form of Mono. If one or all are setup as any form of Mono, and the Center Sub output is NOT setup for LFE, then all bass from Bass Management and LFE will go to all of the sub outputs. When the Center Sub is setup for LFE, it is not the same as Left or Left/Right Sub outputs. It is only the .1 Low Frequency Effects channel. With regard to the output used on the processor, just use the Left Sub Output and setup as Mono, not Dual Mono. Center Sub output = LFE. Once inside the miniDSP you can route as you want. I can't tell you what will work better, that's what you'll need to discover by trying the different possibilities. Your subs might work well together, might not, but you'll be able to try all sorts of variables. One important thing you need to do is to Keep Great Notes!! It is very easy to get lost when changing so many settings. Measuring with REW is no different, keep great notes with every sweep! I would do a bunch of sweeps, saving the REW file as I went along, then I would duplicate that file and edit out the sweeps I didn't like and use this as the basis for more measurements. After trying all the different setups of subs, I could go back and compare all the results. Some results were better using fewer subs, so I ended up with 3 subwoofers in a group for the non-LCR channels. In the miniDSP I can make adjustments so that the Mono BM signal works well with the crossover settings I've chosen in the processor. These adjustments differ from what I chose for the signal routing that's used for the LFE channel. Also, when I run Dirac and check the results with REW I found that I needed to use the Dirac curtains to keep Dirac from "correcting" some frequency ranges so the result didn't get wacky. The bottom line is this, just start simple and build on the results. Just look at where I began this thread and where I am now, it's waaaay different than I "thought" it was going to be because I was open to wherever the results would lead to. What I found was that I originally bought the wrong subwoofers, and I'm very happy with the replacements. I bought one replacement, compared it to the ones I already had and found the new one to be MUCH better, so I bought more, tested more, and bought more and ended up with four 12" subs and one 10" sub, and even then - what I envisioned each of their usage to be changed. I thought I would buy more subs, but found - through testing - that more would benefit my setup a tiny, tiny fraction of the effort and expense would justify. In other words, I'm 85% of the way there, and happy, so I stopped because that last 15% is not justifiable at this time. |
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Post by p4t on Jul 5, 2021 13:31:26 GMT -5
My JL and SB3000 have variable phase. I can use Y adapter either for the front subs (2 SB3000 equal distance from MLP) or rear subs (2 KC62 equal distance from MLP), and I did check using minidsp by assign each output to each subwoofer separately and the best summation for 2 SB3000 by adding no time delay. So does for the 2 KC62. I just read XMC2 manual again and it says signal from Left/right subwoofer and center subwoofer the same, correct? In that case, I am thinking connected the sub like this: XMC2 left/right sub out -> Minidsp input 1 -> output 1 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) XMC2 center sub out (LFE) -> Minidsp input 2 -> output 2 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & (JL E112) OR XMC2 left/right sub out (MONO) -> Minidsp input 1 -> output 1 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & output 3 (JL E112) XMC2 center sub out (LFE) -> Minidsp input 2 -> output 2 (2 SB3000) & output 2 (2 KC62) & output 3 (JL E112) Which one do you think work better? Or do you have any better suggestions? Thanks. The three subwoofer outputs from the processor are identical when all are setup for any form of Mono. If one or all are setup as any form of Mono, and the Center Sub output is NOT setup for LFE, then all bass from Bass Management and LFE will go to all of the sub outputs. When the Center Sub is setup for LFE, it is not the same as Left or Left/Right Sub outputs. It is only the .1 Low Frequency Effects channel. With regard to the output used on the processor, just use the Left Sub Output and setup as Mono, not Dual Mono. Center Sub output = LFE. Once inside the miniDSP you can route as you want. I can't tell you what will work better, that's what you'll need to discover by trying the different possibilities. Your subs might work well together, might not, but you'll be able to try all sorts of variables. One important thing you need to do is to Keep Great Notes!! It is very easy to get lost when changing so many settings. Measuring with REW is no different, keep great notes with every sweep! I would do a bunch of sweeps, saving the REW file as I went along, then I would duplicate that file and edit out the sweeps I didn't like and use this as the basis for more measurements. After trying all the different setups of subs, I could go back and compare all the results. Some results were better using fewer subs, so I ended up with 3 subwoofers in a group for the non-LCR channels. In the miniDSP I can make adjustments so that the Mono BM signal works well with the crossover settings I've chosen in the processor. These adjustments differ from what I chose for the signal routing that's used for the LFE channel. Also, when I run Dirac and check the results with REW I found that I needed to use the Dirac curtains to keep Dirac from "correcting" some frequency ranges so the result didn't get wacky. The bottom line is this, just start simple and build on the results. Just look at where I began this thread and where I am now, it's waaaay different than I "thought" it was going to be because I was open to wherever the results would lead to. What I found was that I originally bought the wrong subwoofers, and I'm very happy with the replacements. I bought one replacement, compared it to the ones I already had and found the new one to be MUCH better, so I bought more, tested more, and bought more and ended up with four 12" subs and one 10" sub, and even then - what I envisioned each of their usage to be changed. I thought I would buy more subs, but found - through testing - that more would benefit my setup a tiny, tiny fraction of the effort and expense would justify. In other words, I'm 85% of the way there, and happy, so I stopped because that last 15% is not justifiable at this time. Thank you, for the suggestion and information. Do you post the lay out for your latest setting? Let me scroll back the pages to check out your latest setting if you posted. |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
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Post by ttocs on Jul 5, 2021 14:48:18 GMT -5
Thank you, for the suggestion and information. Do you post the lay out for your latest setting? Let me scroll back the pages to check out your latest setting if you posted. Here is my current layout. Thanks for reminding me as I forgot to update one image on the first page which has whatever the current layout is. One image was not clear as to the intent of subwoofer usage.  |
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Post by leonski on Jul 5, 2021 18:11:01 GMT -5
It all starts with NEW CONSTRUCGTION. Double sheet rock walls....2x 3/4" on 2 adjacent walls....and 1x 3/4" on the other 2. Mount 'clouds' on the ceiling.
Proper basic dimentions.......avoid 'square' dimensions or even worse, even multiple cubes. PHI is your friend.
Teala once claimed he could topple the empire state building with 20 hp. Given his knowledge of resonant frequency? I think he cold have done it. Neighbors of
Tesla complained about 'earthquakes' which were broght on by his experiemnts.....
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Post by p4t on Jul 5, 2021 22:39:51 GMT -5
Thank you, for the suggestion and information. Do you post the lay out for your latest setting? Let me scroll back the pages to check out your latest setting if you posted. Here is my current layout. Thanks for reminding me as I forgot to update one image on the first page which has whatever the current layout is. One image was not clear as to the intent of subwoofer usage. View AttachmentNice, but it seems complicated for the wiring. Just wondering, for your system have you ever try to make L2 and R2 purely dedicated for the fronts, so you disconnected the L1 and R1 from the fronts. How it sound? May be next in the future, I will buy 1 more KC62 and make my LCR set as large. |
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