Finding Subwoofer

[ttocs]

Jul 5, 2021 22:39:51 GMT -5 p4t said:

Jul 5, 2021 14:48:18 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Here is my current layout. Thanks for reminding me as I forgot to update one image on the first page which has whatever the current layout is. One image was not clear as to the intent of subwoofer usage.
View Attachment

Nice, but it seems complicated for the wiring. Just wondering, for your system have you ever try to make L2 and R2 purely dedicated for the fronts, so you disconnected the L1 and R1 from the fronts. How it sound? May be next in the future, I will buy 1 more KC62 and make my LCR set as large.

Well, just one sub dedicated to each Front is not near as good as two. The two subs work together along with each main speaker's dual woofers. It's not just the frequency response nor the ease at which the bass fills the room volume, but to my surprise I discovered that dynamics skyrocketed after adding the subs as extra woofers. Everything is better. One sub has a very limited frequency range, the second one goes a bit higher, and the dual-woofers in the speakers do the rest up to the speaker's crossover of 300Hz, but the speaker's woofers also still go down to lower than 20Hz but using a -10dB low shelf filter that's built-in. The low shelf filter is centered at 75Hz, so when I dial down to -10Hz with the control the effect rolls up to level at around 150Hz. What this all means is that each amp for each woofer is being asked to do less work and each sub is doing very little as well, so when some very impactful sound needs to be produced it's not difficult for the "system" to do.

Each Front speaker and its two subwoofers are connected via speaker wire. There is no DSP between them. The wiring goes from the amp to the speaker to the first sub to the second sub, just with the speaker wire. So the wiring is simple. Setup is more tedious. This setup is primarily aimed at music. If it were just for movies it would be a lot easier.

Since having this setup for music I've heard things in music I've never before heard in any home system. For example, I went to see Pink Floyd back in 1987 at a venue that was known for terrible natural acoustics, so the place had to install all sorts of treatments to make it usable for concerts, and even then, you had to make sure you sat in the right spots for good sound. Well, Pink Floyd used only their equipment, allllllll around the venue, and I've never before or since heard bass as accurate or thunderous as that concert! That's the concert that showed me how Dark Side Of The Moon should sound. Now, I almost have that sound with my system, it's really close. The heartbeat at the beginning of the album sounds full, deep, much louder than ever before, but is not at all bloated or mushy or strained. This put a really big smile on my face!!!

The left and right stacks are "dedicated" to the Left & Right speaker via speaker connections, but the bottom subs of each stack also carry BM and LFE via the LFE inputs of those subs, along with the sub in the back of the room - Sub5, which also handles some smoothing for the Front Left and Front Right. So the top sub in each front stack is only carrying signals for the Left or Right channels and nothing else. So for movies I'm totally ok with this setup. All I can say is that it all works very well.

Since I had enough subs to do it, I tested a stack of 3 subs and it was an improvement over just 2 subs stacked, but it's a much smaller incremental improvement so it's not anything I'll do anytime soon.

If you look at the first page of this thread you'll find the wiring diagram for the system. I use two miniDSP's. One is for BM and LFE and goes to L1/R1/Sub5, the other is only for the Front Left & Right channels for smoothing the bass in the room and goes to Sub5 and it's mostly just for a big dip that is present if Sub5 is not used.

[p4t]

Jul 6, 2021 0:23:57 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 5, 2021 22:39:51 GMT -5 p4t said:

Nice, but it seems complicated for the wiring. Just wondering, for your system have you ever try to make L2 and R2 purely dedicated for the fronts, so you disconnected the L1 and R1 from the fronts. How it sound? May be next in the future, I will buy 1 more KC62 and make my LCR set as large.

Well, just one sub dedicated to each Front is not near as good as two. The two subs work together along with each main speaker's dual woofers. It's not just the frequency response nor the ease at which the bass fills the room volume, but to my surprise I discovered that dynamics skyrocketed after adding the subs as extra woofers. Everything is better. One sub has a very limited frequency range, the second one goes a bit higher, and the dual-woofers in the speakers do the rest up to the speaker's crossover of 300Hz, but the speaker's woofers also still go down to lower than 20Hz but using a -10dB low shelf filter that's built-in. The low shelf filter is centered at 75Hz, so when I dial down to -10Hz with the control the effect rolls up to level at around 150Hz. What this all means is that each amp for each woofer is being asked to do less work and each sub is doing very little as well, so when some very impactful sound needs to be produced it's not difficult for the "system" to do.

Each Front speaker and its two subwoofers are connected via speaker wire. There is no DSP between them. The wiring goes from the amp to the speaker to the first sub to the second sub, just with the speaker wire. So the wiring is simple. Setup is more tedious. This setup is primarily aimed at music. If it were just for movies it would be a lot easier.

Since having this setup for music I've heard things in music I've never before heard in any home system. For example, I went to see Pink Floyd back in 1987 at a venue that was known for terrible natural acoustics, so the place had to install all sorts of treatments to make it usable for concerts, and even then, you had to make sure you sat in the right spots for good sound. Well, Pink Floyd used only their equipment, allllllll around the venue, and I've never before or since heard bass as accurate or thunderous as that concert! That's the concert that showed me how Dark Side Of The Moon should sound. Now, I almost have that sound with my system, it's really close. The heartbeat at the beginning of the album sounds full, deep, much louder than ever before, but is not at all bloated or mushy or strained. This put a really big smile on my face!!!

The left and right stacks are "dedicated" to the Left & Right speaker via speaker connections, but the bottom subs of each stack also carry BM and LFE via the LFE inputs of those subs, along with the sub in the back of the room - Sub5, which also handles some smoothing for the Front Left and Front Right. So the top sub in each front stack is only carrying signals for the Left or Right channels and nothing else. So for movies I'm totally ok with this setup. All I can say is that it all works very well.

Since I had enough subs to do it, I tested a stack of 3 subs and it was an improvement over just 2 subs stacked, but it's a much smaller incremental improvement so it's not anything I'll do anytime soon.

If you look at the first page of this thread you'll find the wiring diagram for the system. I use two miniDSP's. One is for BM and LFE and goes to L1/R1/Sub5, the other is only for the Front Left & Right channels for smoothing the bass in the room and goes to Sub5 and it's mostly just for a big dip that is present if Sub5 is not used.

Awesome. For L1 and R1 sub is work double as fronts and BM/LFE correct? I just set all my 5 subwoofers, but it kind of weird with 4 subs in each corner than add a JL sub in the rear middle wall, it doesn’t make any difference, only 1 or 2db, and that is the best I can do after try many different time delay. O when you set your sub, do you use gain match or level match? Thank you.

[ttocs]

Jul 6, 2021 9:27:42 GMT -5 p4t said:

Awesome. For L1 and R1 sub is work double as fronts and BM/LFE correct?

I just set all my 5 subwoofers, but it kind of weird with 4 subs in each corner than add a JL sub in the rear middle wall, it doesn’t make any difference, only 1 or 2db, and that is the best I can do after try many different time delay. O when you set your sub, do you use gain match or level match? Thank you.

Yes.

Start with the subwoofer that is closest to the MLP (Main Listening Position) and tweak whatever settings on it first, then work with the next closest one. I know the two front subs are "equal" distance, but just start with one first. Then the second, third, and so on.

I assume you are using REW? If yes, the this is a quick way to get close to where the alignment should be. I use REW's Generator and RTA, get both on the computer screen so that the control buttons are easy to access, so I position Generator near the bottom and the bottom of the RTA screen is just above the buttons of Generator. Then I start Generator using Pink Noise in the range I want, say from 20Hz to 200Hz, and then start recording with RTA and watch the curve "settle". Then I change the phase of the second sub slowly and refresh RTA, repeat these two steps many times which only takes a few minutes. You need to see the computer screen while doing this, and in my case my subs have an app which controls them so it's super simple. You will do this with each additional sub.

Also, "usually" the subs in the rear are Inverted Phase from the fronts, but this will be evident when tweaking the group. Once I get to a point where things look ok, I'll invert the phase of a sub just to see what happens.

Each additional sub summed the overall gain in the room in my case, so I had to back off on the gain on each sub. Also, I tweaked the volume of each sub to aid with any peaks or nulls along the way. Some locations are better than others EVEN WHEN they are equal distance from the MLP. Try it, experiment. If the sum gain seems low, then one or more subs are fighting. Symmetrical is not always going to work. It depends. Room, furniture, wall construction, doors, windows, different type subs, all play a roll in how it will work out.

If the second sub doesn't give you at least a couple dB gain, then move the mic and see if the mic is in a null. Move it towards the front subs a foot or so at a time. If the sum gain improves, then one sub is cancelling the other at some frequency. The RTA should be a big help because you can move the mic while pink noise is being generated and you can watch and refresh in real time.

edit: One more thing for a clarification. When I say to start with the first sub, then the second and so on, you will not be turning off any previous subs, they all must stay on and be active.

So it's:
1
1 and 2
1, 2, and 3,
etc.

You are building a group, not measuring each one by itself.

[p4t]

Jul 6, 2021 9:52:15 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 6, 2021 9:27:42 GMT -5 p4t said:

Awesome. For L1 and R1 sub is work double as fronts and BM/LFE correct?

I just set all my 5 subwoofers, but it kind of weird with 4 subs in each corner than add a JL sub in the rear middle wall, it doesn’t make any difference, only 1 or 2db, and that is the best I can do after try many different time delay. O when you set your sub, do you use gain match or level match? Thank you.

Yes.

Start with the subwoofer that is closest to the MLP (Main Listening Position) and tweak whatever settings on it first, then work with the next closest one. I know the two front subs are "equal" distance, but just start with one first. Then the second, third, and so on.

I assume you are using REW? If yes, the this is a quick way to get close to where the alignment should be. I use REW's Generator and RTA, get both on the computer screen so that the control buttons are easy to access, so I position Generator near the bottom and the bottom of the RTA screen is just above the buttons of Generator. Then I start Generator using Pink Noise in the range I want, say from 20Hz to 200Hz, and then start recording with RTA and watch the curve "settle". Then I change the phase of the second sub slowly and refresh RTA, repeat these two steps many times which only takes a few minutes. You need to see the computer screen while doing this, and in my case my subs have an app which controls them so it's super simple. You will do this with each additional sub.

Also, "usually" the subs in the rear are Inverted Phase from the fronts, but this will be evident when tweaking the group. Once I get to a point where things look ok, I'll invert the phase of a sub just to see what happens.

Each additional sub summed the overall gain in the room in my case, so I had to back off on the gain on each sub. Also, I tweaked the volume of each sub to aid with any peaks or nulls along the way. Some locations are better than others EVEN WHEN they are equal distance from the MLP. Try it, experiment. If the sum gain seems low, then one or more subs are fighting. Symmetrical is not always going to work. It depends. Room, furniture, wall construction, doors, windows, different type subs, all play a roll in how it will work out.

If the second sub doesn't give you at least a couple dB gain, then move the mic and see if the mic is in a null. Move it towards the front subs a foot or so at a time. If the sum gain improves, then one sub is cancelling the other at some frequency. The RTA should be a big help because you can move the mic while pink noise is being generated and you can watch and refresh in real time.

edit: One more thing for a clarification. When I say to start with the first sub, then the second and so on, you will not be turning off any previous subs, they all must stay on and be active.

So it's:
1
1 and 2
1, 2, and 3,
etc.

You are building a group, not measuring each one by itself.

Sorry sound silly. What RTA software to use? Is it separate software from REW? So far I only know REW. Also I have a question, whci one need bigger subwoofer (more powerful subwoofer) if I set Dedicated subwoofer for BM and dedicated subwoofer for LFE. LFE needs bigger subwoofer correct? And you also mentioned signal information for BM is different than LFE signal information, in this case if the signal between BM and LFE is different means we do not need to sync BM subwoofer to LFE subwoofer.

[ttocs]

Here is a screenshot of REW with Generator and RTA open. This is not how I layout the screen when I use it, but I put the windows in these positions for clarity so you can see them. Generator and RTA buttons can be seen at the top of the REW window in the toolbar.

[p4t]

Jul 6, 2021 12:37:44 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Here is a screenshot of REW with Generator and RTA open. This is not how I layout the screen when I use it, but I put the windows in these positions for clarity so you can see them. Generator and RTA buttons can be seen at the top of the REW window in the toolbar.

View Attachment

Got it. Thank you

[ttocs]

Jul 6, 2021 12:22:25 GMT -5 p4t said:

Also I have a question, whci one need bigger subwoofer (more powerful subwoofer) if I set Dedicated subwoofer for BM and dedicated subwoofer for LFE. LFE needs bigger subwoofer correct?

And you also mentioned signal information for BM is different than LFE signal information, in this case if the signal between BM and LFE is different means we do not need to sync BM subwoofer to LFE subwoofer.

Bigger sub for LFE or BM? It depends.
I set some pretty high crossovers for my Small channels, especially the ATMOS Tops, so right now they are all set at 150Hz. Blasphemy! I know. But it works very well. Everyone needs to tinker with things to find out what works well in their systems.  The dedicated subwoofer for my Center Speaker is set at 173Hz because this is what works the best. Center speaker above the tv, and sub below the tv, the voices come from 1/3 down the tv screen. It's a bee-u-tiful thing!

So to kind of get back to the questions . . . .  My subs do very well up to 200Hz, so I'm not afraid to use them in that range. They also are good down to 18Hz, which is as far as I want to push them. I use the same 3 subwoofers for BM and LFE, but through different inputs on the subs.

LFE is spec'd to go up to 120Hz and that's it, but it begins it's downward slope around 80Hz.  So for LFE the subs aren't being asked to do very much in upper bass frequencies. Bass for all channels other than the .1 LFE channel are expected by Dolby to go down to 32Hz (I think that's the spec, it's been so long since I looked it up, maybe it's 40Hz, whatever), but a lot of movies have some deep bass that can be as low as 26Hz-ish that I've measured in the Center Channel.

With all that being said, I want the best performance from the subs for surrounds at the crossover, and I don't care as much for under 30Hz for these channels. LFE will do what LFE will do and I let it do what it wants as best I can, down to 18Hz, which is where you feel it - not hear it.

There is a lot more going on in the bass for all speaker channels than you might think. I've turned off the signal from the CenterSubLFE and was pretty amazed at the low bass! Then I turned off the signal carrying the BM and found very little in some movies in the LFE channel, but that was mostly lower and louder sounds!

So only you can decide for yourself what you want to do. But if I had two totally separate groups of subwoofers for each, then I want the subs that do well above 100Hz for BM and the subs that do well at the lowest frequencies for LFE, but you want both to perform well. And again, I use the same subwoofers for both. I've tried it with separates and don't feel I'm losing out by sending BM and LFE to the same group, albeit with different tweaks for each, and having two groups of subs in the room in the same locations just wasn't needed.

Some day, if I don't need to move, if money doesn't matter, and it's not too far into the future, then I'd love to add more subwoofers. But not in different locations from where they are now because I already know they are in the right spots for my current room, so they would be stacked on top of the current subs.

[ttocs]

p4t I would highly suggest using one of your smaller subs for the Center Channel Speaker and set it as Large. This one channel being separate from all others is much clearer and impactful.

My Center Speaker does not have any safeguard built-in to save the woofers from low frequencies and it's only rated down to 73Hz so I use an active crossover between the speaker and subwoofer.

With my Large Fronts, Large Center, the system sounds amazing! The only thing better would be all matching bed speakers, all Large, separate amps!

[leonski]

Nothing worse, I'd imagine then feeding a speaker with a lower limit of 70hz a high amplitude signal as much as 2 octaves lower......

[ttocs]

p4t I found the page with a video I made for using RTA, Generator, and changing the miniDSP delay "live" and seeing the result in RTA. Use the link and go to the second post on that page. This method is just a rough start and will get things close, but it's a lot quicker than running multiple sweeps.

Here is the video from Page 4 of this thread.

[p4t]

Jul 6, 2021 19:16:32 GMT -5 ttocs said:

p4t I found the page with a video I made for using RTA, Generator, and changing the miniDSP delay "live" and seeing the result in RTA. Use the link and go to the second post on that page. This method is just a rough start and will get things close, but it's a lot quicker than running multiple sweeps.

Here is the video from Page 4 of this thread.

Thank you very much for your time and effort explaining things to me, I really appreciate it. I learnt many new things now from you. I heard many people also saying that add a dedicated sub for center channel and set it as large make a big improvement. I check also your link about RTA. Can I use this RTA to integrate sub and center channel also? Again thank you for explaining things to me

[p4t]

Jul 6, 2021 16:39:18 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 6, 2021 12:22:25 GMT -5 p4t said:

Also I have a question, whci one need bigger subwoofer (more powerful subwoofer) if I set Dedicated subwoofer for BM and dedicated subwoofer for LFE. LFE needs bigger subwoofer correct?

And you also mentioned signal information for BM is different than LFE signal information, in this case if the signal between BM and LFE is different means we do not need to sync BM subwoofer to LFE subwoofer.

Bigger sub for LFE or BM? It depends.
I set some pretty high crossovers for my Small channels, especially the ATMOS Tops, so right now they are all set at 150Hz. Blasphemy! I know. But it works very well. Everyone needs to tinker with things to find out what works well in their systems.  The dedicated subwoofer for my Center Speaker is set at 173Hz because this is what works the best. Center speaker above the tv, and sub below the tv, the voices come from 1/3 down the tv screen. It's a bee-u-tiful thing!

So to kind of get back to the questions . . . .  My subs do very well up to 200Hz, so I'm not afraid to use them in that range. They also are good down to 18Hz, which is as far as I want to push them. I use the same 3 subwoofers for BM and LFE, but through different inputs on the subs.

LFE is spec'd to go up to 120Hz and that's it, but it begins it's downward slope around 80Hz.  So for LFE the subs aren't being asked to do very much in upper bass frequencies. Bass for all channels other than the .1 LFE channel are expected by Dolby to go down to 32Hz (I think that's the spec, it's been so long since I looked it up, maybe it's 40Hz, whatever), but a lot of movies have some deep bass that can be as low as 26Hz-ish that I've measured in the Center Channel.

With all that being said, I want the best performance from the subs for surrounds at the crossover, and I don't care as much for under 30Hz for these channels. LFE will do what LFE will do and I let it do what it wants as best I can, down to 18Hz, which is where you feel it - not hear it.

There is a lot more going on in the bass for all speaker channels than you might think. I've turned off the signal from the CenterSubLFE and was pretty amazed at the low bass! Then I turned off the signal carrying the BM and found very little in some movies in the LFE channel, but that was mostly lower and louder sounds!

So only you can decide for yourself what you want to do. But if I had two totally separate groups of subwoofers for each, then I want the subs that do well above 100Hz for BM and the subs that do well at the lowest frequencies for LFE, but you want both to perform well. And again, I use the same subwoofers for both. I've tried it with separates and don't feel I'm losing out by sending BM and LFE to the same group, albeit with different tweaks for each, and having two groups of subs in the room in the same locations just wasn't needed.

Some day, if I don't need to move, if money doesn't matter, and it's not too far into the future, then I'd love to add more subwoofers. But not in different locations from where they are now because I already know they are in the right spots for my current room, so they would be stacked on top of the current subs.

Thank you for a detailed information. As for my JL sub I tried does not make any much difference for summation with other subs. Is it possible I use the JL sub located on rear middle wall as dedicated center channel subwoofer? Because the distance is far away from center channel (around 18 feet), should this cause problems such as time delay? I can make my minidsp input 2 and output 3 and 4 available. So ,center channel  from XMC2 going to input 2 and output  3 to amp (center channel) and output 4 to JL subwoofer. I just do not know how to do the setting, for crossover, subwoofer delay etc. I tried browsing around but not find any yet. one more question how do you connect from your laptop to xmc2? using HDMI?

[ttocs]

Jul 6, 2021 23:06:54 GMT -5 p4t said:

Thank you for a detailed information. As for my JL sub I tried does not make any much difference for summation with other subs. Is it possible I use the JL sub located on rear middle wall as dedicated center channel subwoofer? Because the distance is far away from center channel (around 18 feet), should this cause problems such as time delay? I can make my minidsp input 2 and output 3 and 4 available. So ,center channel  from XMC2 going to input 2 and output  3 to amp (center channel) and output 4 to JL subwoofer. I just do not know how to do the setting, for crossover, subwoofer delay etc. I tried browsing around but not find any yet.

one more question how do you connect from your laptop to xmc2? using HDMI?

It is not a good idea to use a sub at back of room for the front Center Speaker Channel. It won't sound right and would be worse than the normal way of using BM and the front subs.

The benefit of using a dedicated sub for a Front channel is when setting that Front channel as Large and having the speaker/sub components in the right place.

Is it possible for you to get another miniDSP? You could get the regular 2x4 and use that just for the Center Speaker.

I connect my MacBook Pro via HDMI cable. Once I learned about this it made things really simple for hookup and usage, plus, it gave me easy access to 7.1 channels.

[p4t]

Jul 7, 2021 7:08:48 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 6, 2021 23:06:54 GMT -5 p4t said:

Thank you for a detailed information. As for my JL sub I tried does not make any much difference for summation with other subs. Is it possible I use the JL sub located on rear middle wall as dedicated center channel subwoofer? Because the distance is far away from center channel (around 18 feet), should this cause problems such as time delay? I can make my minidsp input 2 and output 3 and 4 available. So ,center channel  from XMC2 going to input 2 and output  3 to amp (center channel) and output 4 to JL subwoofer. I just do not know how to do the setting, for crossover, subwoofer delay etc. I tried browsing around but not find any yet.

one more question how do you connect from your laptop to xmc2? using HDMI?

It is not a good idea to use a sub at back of room for the front Center Speaker Channel. It won't sound right and would be worse than the normal way of using BM and the front subs.

The benefit of using a dedicated sub for a Front channel is when setting that Front channel as Large and having the speaker/sub components in the right place.

Is it possible for you to get another miniDSP? You could get the regular 2x4 and use that just for the Center Speaker.

I connect my MacBook Pro via HDMI cable. Once I learned about this it made things really simple for hookup and usage, plus, it gave me easy access to 7.1 channels.

The problem right know is I do not have space below center channel, cause my audio equipment is there. Unless I move my audio equipment. I am still waiting my other JL being fixed. Could be another 2 months probably. Once, I get back my plan is relocate my audio equipment, and I put my 2 KC62 under the center channel. 1 KC62 will be use dedicated center channel subwoofer and the other KC62 will be use for dedicated front left and right channel subwoofer (mono). For your opinion how important it is to have dedicated subwoofer for BM and LFE? Because if it is important In the future I can get 2 more subwoofers. The set up will be:

1. 2 JL sub located 1 in middle front wall and the other in rear middle wall, this have a smooth bass response cause I already tried it. Later this 2 JL will be use as Dedicated BM or LFE (need your suggestion for this)

2 2 SB3000 and 2 new subwoofer will be placed in each corner of the room. I know this will also give a smooth bass response. Will be use as dedicated BM or LFE ( need your suggestion for this)

3 2 KC62 will place on top of JL sub on middle front wall. 1 use as dedicated center subwoofer and the other as dedicated front subwoofer (mono) and maybe get another one to make it dedicated stereo front subwoofer.
It sound crazy with this many subwoofers, but what do you think?
Back to my situation right know, I guess I have to move my JL sub under the center channel to make it dedicated center channel sub?

[leonski]

With MiniDSP, it is possible to dial in a time delay to each channel of the output......right?

So why not take the difference in distance between mains and that sub in the back of the room and delay the nearer speaker about 1ms per foot?

So audibbly, the rear sub is NOW at the 'same distance'. Cross over LOW enough....certainly 80hz or less and you'll never localize by ear.

Make certain PHASE is correct, too......check for bass suck out by 'flipping' that sub's phase switch.....or adjust the 'pot' for maximum perceived bass....

the object would be to NOT notice it, but notice it when shut off....

[ttocs]

210724
BM and LFE Setup

[p4t]

Hi Ttocs. I am thinking this setting and I wan to know your opinion.
- Front set as large with KC62-1 and 12B in mid rear wall as dedicated front L&R channel subwoofer
- Center set as large with KC62-2 and 12B in mid rear wall as dedicated center channel subwoofer
- Left sub out set as mono going to 2x12B in each front corner and 2x10B in each rear corner
- Center sub out set as LFE going to 2xSB3000 in each front corner and 2xE112 in each rear corner
- All surrounds channel set as small with 80Hz crossover
- Dedicated front and center channel subwoofers time align and crossover using minidsp
- The rest of the subwoofers align using minidsp
The one I am thinking kind of waste is that using this setting now the BM subwoofers only for surrounds speakers as as I set the front and center as large, so no low freq going to BM sub, is it correct? And the BM sub is more capable and smoother of producing low freq than just KC62 in the mid front wall and 12B in mid rear wall.

What do think about this setting? Or anything I should change to make it better?

Attachments:

[ttocs]

Jul 31, 2021 1:03:39 GMT -5 p4t said:

Hi Ttocs. I am thinking this setting and I wan to know your opinion.
- Front set as large with KC62-1 and 12B in mid rear wall as dedicated front L&R channel subwoofer
- Center set as large with KC62-2 and 12B in mid rear wall as dedicated center channel subwoofer
- Left sub out set as mono going to 2x12B in each front corner and 2x10B in each rear corner
- Center sub out set as LFE going to 2xSB3000 in each front corner and 2xE112 in each rear corner
- All surrounds channel set as small with 80Hz crossover
- Dedicated front and center channel subwoofers time align and crossover using minidsp
- The rest of the subwoofers align using minidsp
The one I am thinking kind of waste is that using this setting now the BM subwoofers only for surrounds speakers as as I set the front and center as large, so no low freq going to BM sub, is it correct? And the BM sub is more capable and smoother of producing low freq than just KC62 in the mid front wall and 12B in mid rear wall.

What do think about this setting? Or anything I should change to make it better?

My suggestion is simple, try it. I follow where the sound and measurements lead to.

Plus, tests done by the best have found that subwoofers in more than four locations in a room can become a liability to the results. In really simple terms, 2 is better than 1, 3 can be better than 2 but needs to be tested, 4 is the sweet spot for best results if you have a "normal" rectangular room, and more than that can make the results suffer or be the same as 4 but add complication.

I found 3 locations where subwoofers perform the best in my room, but I'm only using one of those spots. The two in front are a compromise because the correct spots would be 3 feet closer to the MLP which is simply very objectionable. My room in not a rectangle, or a box, or anything else. I tested every usable square foot of floor space in my multi-function room with one subwoofer to find spots that work best for a single sub. Then, I built upon that success to find what would work for two subs together. Then, in the end, I added that third sub in the back which allowed the front subs to move where they are and still work well, but not perfect.

Being immersed within the middle of subwoofers in front and behind helps with being able to use them for any channel and not think about a match or mismatch of bass to speaker channel. For example, when one or two subs are used on the front wall but the main sound is coming from a rear channel, the crossover needs to be kept low enough so you won't discern that the bass is coming from one location and higher freqs coming from another.

BM "can" have low frequencies in the mix, but I've never actually measured anything lower than the high 20Hz range, but LFE can easily have frequencies lower than 20Hz.

I still say that you might find that you might end up with subs in fewer locations. Your measurement results will tell you what's going on. I used to have a 9.1.4 setup but decided to remove the Width speakers because they were contributing to a large dip between 60-70Hz from when the Large Fronts play mono bass together, and I'm all about music first, so, they had to go.

[p4t]

Jul 31, 2021 6:54:16 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 31, 2021 1:03:39 GMT -5 p4t said:

Hi Ttocs. I am thinking this setting and I wan to know your opinion.
- Front set as large with KC62-1 and 12B in mid rear wall as dedicated front L&R channel subwoofer
- Center set as large with KC62-2 and 12B in mid rear wall as dedicated center channel subwoofer
- Left sub out set as mono going to 2x12B in each front corner and 2x10B in each rear corner
- Center sub out set as LFE going to 2xSB3000 in each front corner and 2xE112 in each rear corner
- All surrounds channel set as small with 80Hz crossover
- Dedicated front and center channel subwoofers time align and crossover using minidsp
- The rest of the subwoofers align using minidsp
The one I am thinking kind of waste is that using this setting now the BM subwoofers only for surrounds speakers as as I set the front and center as large, so no low freq going to BM sub, is it correct? And the BM sub is more capable and smoother of producing low freq than just KC62 in the mid front wall and 12B in mid rear wall.

What do think about this setting? Or anything I should change to make it better?

My suggestion is simple, try it. I follow where the sound and measurements lead to.

Plus, tests done by the best have found that subwoofers in more than four locations in a room can become a liability to the results. In really simple terms, 2 is better than 1, 3 can be better than 2 but needs to be tested, 4 is the sweet spot for best results if you have a "normal" rectangular room, and more than that can make the results suffer or be the same as 4 but add complication.

I found 3 locations where subwoofers perform the best in my room, but I'm only using one of those spots. The two in front are a compromise because the correct spots would be 3 feet closer to the MLP which is simply very objectionable. My room in not a rectangle, or a box, or anything else. I tested every usable square foot of floor space in my multi-function room with one subwoofer to find spots that work best for a single sub. Then, I built upon that success to find what would work for two subs together. Then, in the end, I added that third sub in the back which allowed the front subs to move where they are and still work well, but not perfect.

Being immersed within the middle of subwoofers in front and behind helps with being able to use them for any channel and not think about a match or mismatch of bass to speaker channel. For example, when one or two subs are used on the front wall but the main sound is coming from a rear channel, the crossover needs to be kept low enough so you won't discern that the bass is coming from one location and higher freqs coming from another.

BM "can" have low frequencies in the mix, but I've never actually measured anything lower than the high 20Hz range, but LFE can easily have frequencies lower than 20Hz.

I still say that you might find that you might end up with subs in fewer locations. Your measurement results will tell you what's going on. I used to have a 9.1.4 setup but decided to remove the Width speakers because they were contributing to a large dip between 60-70Hz from when the Large Fronts play mono bass together, and I'm all about music first, so, they had to go.

The measurement is pretty much the same for BM subs and LFE subs. But for front subs and center subs wont be as smooth and loud as BM or LFE subs as only using a pair of subs for front and center channel. My questions is when you set front channel as large and center channel as large, then there are no bass/low freq going to BM subs, correct?

[ttocs]

Jul 31, 2021 10:05:45 GMT -5 p4t said:

The measurement is pretty much the same for BM subs and LFE subs. But for front subs and center subs wont be as smooth and loud as BM or LFE subs as only using a pair of subs for front and center channel.

My questions is when you set front channel as large and center channel as large, then there are no bass/low freq going to BM subs, correct?

Have you run REW to measure how things are working? Using separate subwoofer channels for BM and LFE allows each to be adjusted for proper level.

Correct. When a channel is setup as Large, no frequencies from that channel are sent to a subwoofer channel.