|
|
Post by p4t on Jul 31, 2021 11:17:49 GMT -5
The measurement is pretty much the same for BM subs and LFE subs. But for front subs and center subs wont be as smooth and loud as BM or LFE subs as only using a pair of subs for front and center channel. My questions is when you set front channel as large and center channel as large, then there are no bass/low freq going to BM subs, correct? Have you run REW to measure how things are working? Using separate subwoofer channels for BM and LFE allows each to be adjusted for proper level. Correct. When a channel is setup as Large, no frequencies from that channel are sent to a subwoofer channel. So far, I Just aligning the BM subs and LFE subs, I have not yet run the subs from xmc2 yet. For the channel set as large, in my case I feel kind of waste running 4 subs as BM, only for surrounds while the fronts and center run on only 2 subs, which less of everything compared to the BM subs. Maybe this setting not a good idea and need another alternatives setting. About you mentioned running minidsp 10x10 how are you planning to run 8 speakers and 4 subwoofers for example? As the output of the minidsp 10x10 only 10 outputs and you need 12 outputs. |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Jul 31, 2021 12:23:09 GMT -5
So far, I Just aligning the BM subs and LFE subs, I have not yet run the subs from xmc2 yet. For the channel set as large, in my case I feel kind of waste running 4 subs as BM, only for surrounds while the fronts and center run on only 2 subs, which less of everything compared to the BM subs. Maybe this setting not a good idea and need another alternatives setting. About you mentioned running minidsp 10x10 how are you planning to run 8 speakers and 4 subwoofers for example? As the output of the minidsp 10x10 only 10 outputs and you need 12 outputs. As I say, try different setups and see what you like. Keep good notes, it gets confusing without them. I already have two miniDSP 2x4HD. The 10x10 would be just for the 4 Surrounds and 4 Tops. (Wishful thinking). But frankly, I'd like to remove the Behringer active XO for another miniDSP, but maybe a lower model, just for the Center Speaker. It would give more capability, and take up less space. |
|
|
|
Post by p4t on Aug 1, 2021 1:39:31 GMT -5
So far, I Just aligning the BM subs and LFE subs, I have not yet run the subs from xmc2 yet. For the channel set as large, in my case I feel kind of waste running 4 subs as BM, only for surrounds while the fronts and center run on only 2 subs, which less of everything compared to the BM subs. Maybe this setting not a good idea and need another alternatives setting. About you mentioned running minidsp 10x10 how are you planning to run 8 speakers and 4 subwoofers for example? As the output of the minidsp 10x10 only 10 outputs and you need 12 outputs. As I say, try different setups and see what you like. Keep good notes, it gets confusing without them. I already have two miniDSP 2x4HD. The 10x10 would be just for the 4 Surrounds and 4 Tops. (Wishful thinking). But frankly, I'd like to remove the Behringer active XO for another miniDSP, but maybe a lower model, just for the Center Speaker. It would give more capability, and take up less space. Dayton 408 is quite cheap for 4 in and 8 out. But dont know yet about the quality as I am still waiting mine to arrive. |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Aug 22, 2021 9:20:05 GMT -5
As I say, try different setups and see what you like. Keep good notes, it gets confusing without them. I already have two miniDSP 2x4HD. The 10x10 would be just for the 4 Surrounds and 4 Tops. (Wishful thinking). But frankly, I'd like to remove the Behringer active XO for another miniDSP, but maybe a lower model, just for the Center Speaker. It would give more capability, and take up less space. Dayton 408 is quite cheap for 4 in and 8 out. But dont know yet about the quality as I am still waiting mine to arrive. After thinking about it, I'd actually need 8-In and 16-Out to make the Surrounds/ATMOS Large, so, while that might be something to consider, it won't be happening any time soon. |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Aug 22, 2021 9:29:14 GMT -5
I've decided to include the top subs in each stack with BM/LFE Groups. There is so much clarity with the Center Channel having its own subwoofer that I don't think I'll miss anything by altering the Left/Right Stack Of Subs in this way. This alteration will not affect two channel listening, so it's worth trying. To that end I purchased a third miniDSP 2x4HD and am connecting it today. This is now the connection diagram for the current configuration.  The BM/LFE feeds into miniDSP1, then out to three subs and miniDSP2. miniDSP2 sends BM/LFE out to two more subs, so now it's a 5 sub group. miniDSP3 handles the smoothing for Left/Right Channels and sends that to the R/L5 Sub so this remains a 5 sub group for two channel. Some names have changed to be more logical about it in my mind. edit: In favor of simplifying things a little, using the second input of miniDSP2 seems appropriate. While there are some things I like about the CX3400 active crossover for the Center Speaker Channel, I decided it's just simpler and in some ways advantageous to use a miniDSP with its DSP processing that the CX3400 doesn't have. So here's the diagram for this setup that I'm trying out for a while.  |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Aug 22, 2021 9:48:09 GMT -5
I've decided to include the top subs in each stack with BM/LFE Groups. There is so much clarity with the Center Channel having its own subwoofer that I don't think I'll miss anything by altering the Left/Right Stack Of Subs in this way. This alteration will not affect two channel listening, so it's worth trying. To that end I purchased a third miniDSP 2x4HD and am connecting it today. This is now the connection diagram for the current configuration. View AttachmentThe BM/LFE feeds into miniDSP1, then out to three subs and miniDSP2. miniDSP2 sends BM/LFE out to two more subs, so now it's a 5 sub group. miniDSP3 handles the smoothing for Left/Right Channels and sends that to the R/L5 Sub so this remains a 5 sub group for two channel. Some names have changed to be more logical about it in my mind. The old adage “a picture is worth a thousand words…”.. Could you please post a few clear and current photos of your system to help bring all of your theories into perspective |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Aug 22, 2021 9:57:31 GMT -5
This is the speaker/sub setup. The current setup can always be found on Page 1 of this thread.  |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Aug 22, 2021 10:08:35 GMT -5
This is the speaker/sub setup. The current setup can always be found on Page 1 of this thread. View Attachment9/27/2020! Clearly you didn’t read my post. What was asked for was CLEAR AND NOW pictures of your system. Why the dodgem answer. Lots of discussion with no current pictures? |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Aug 22, 2021 10:14:42 GMT -5
This is the speaker/sub setup. The current setup can always be found on Page 1 of this thread. View Attachment9/27/2020! Clearly you didn’t read my post. What was asked for was CLEAR AND NOW pictures of your system. Why the dodgem answer. Lots of discussion with no current pictures? Maybe you didn't read the second post. It's the perpetual and current system. I can't change the original date of the second post. Just for you, I added a date to the elevation image. See attachment and second post.  |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Aug 22, 2021 10:27:40 GMT -5
9/27/2020! Clearly you didn’t read my post. What was asked for was CLEAR AND NOW pictures of your system. Why the dodgem answer. Lots of discussion with no current pictures? Maybe you didn't read the second post. It's the perpetual and current system. I can't change the original date of the second post. Just for you, I added a date to the elevation image. See attachment and second post. View AttachmentI read it….why won’t you take a picture TODAY? I would like to see a photograph of what you are actually listening to today in the here and now….can I spell it out any clearer. Understandable if you are not allowed to take pictures inside your house for some reason |
|
|
|
Post by donh50 on Aug 22, 2021 10:36:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Aug 22, 2021 10:39:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Aug 22, 2021 10:51:45 GMT -5
There is one thing for certain regarding competent subwoofer integration.
It started out decades ago with “Occams Razor” firmly in place.
Since then, it’s morphed at times into a needlessly over complicated journey (for some at least)
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Aug 22, 2021 16:21:32 GMT -5
I have no frequency measurements by Rew or Dirac at this time but just wished to convey that I can't believe I let visual OCD compel me to place my subwoofers like this:  I have been living w/ the above subwoofer placement since I owned Ulberhts and 4-10s. I have never been impressed by the bass. Mind you each tower has 2 12" subwoofers and each 4-10 the surface area of an 18" sub. I take it that the different wavelengths of both the 12s and 10s were causing cancellation being next to one another? Either way, should I be surprised that Dirac Live 3 couldn't correct the issue? Well I moved the subwoofers to this location and the bass is so freaking loud it pegs my decibel meter at 130 spl which is it's maximum. The subwoofer relocation was worth 5db. Just amazing....  I really think if I go ahead w/ my plans to add 2, 4, or 6 more 4-10s [in a wall of madness] that the bottom end will be so exaggerated the Parasound Halo A31's 400 watt rms rating to the mains won't be enough. My only complaint w/ the new positioning is that though the subwoofers frequency is supposedly omnidirectional when I sit on the couch I can determine the subs location by the left side "pressurization". In other words though I may not hear the location I can feel them. I love how you have illustrated changes to your setup/system using REAL WORLD Imagery….in this post from MONTHS AGO….perhaps you can encourage the OP to do similar |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Aug 22, 2021 17:59:27 GMT -5
I moved a SINGLE 12" sub from the left side of the room, by the LH main speaker. It was nearest a corner. the effect was a huge boomy and NON MUSICAL bass in the
adjacent den. It was like sitting in a 55 gallon drum. Elsewhere in the main listening area the bass was muddy and indistinct.
I moved the sub about 10 to 12 feet to behind the RH speaker and NOW it is musical, extends very low and is completely non-directional.
I cross the mains (hi pass) about 50 to 55hz at 12db / octave The internal sub crossover is at 40 to 45hz @24db / octave.
As the mains increase, the sub drops off....this fills the gap nicely.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 19:11:39 GMT -5
I have no frequency measurements by Rew or Dirac at this time but just wished to convey that I can't believe I let visual OCD compel me to place my subwoofers like this: I have been living w/ the above subwoofer placement since I owned Ulberhts and 4-10s. I have never been impressed by the bass. Mind you each tower has 2 12" subwoofers and each 4-10 the surface area of an 18" sub. I take it that the different wavelengths of both the 12s and 10s were causing cancellation being next to one another? Either way, should I be surprised that Dirac Live 3 couldn't correct the issue? Well I moved the subwoofers to this location and the bass is so freaking loud it pegs my decibel meter at 130 spl which is it's maximum. The subwoofer relocation was worth 5db. Just amazing.... I really think if I go ahead w/ my plans to add 2, 4, or 6 more 4-10s [in a wall of madness] that the bottom end will be so exaggerated the Parasound Halo A31's 400 watt rms rating to the mains won't be enough. My only complaint w/ the new positioning is that though the subwoofers frequency is supposedly omnidirectional when I sit on the couch I can determine the subs location by the left side "pressurization". In other words though I may not hear the location I can feel them. I love how you have illustrated changes to your setup/system using REAL WORLD Imagery….in this post from MONTHS AGO….perhaps you can encourage the OP to do similar Thanks bro! I did return the subs back to the front soundstage to deal w/ OCD and learned REW. I was able to better them in the front location than that of the left through time alignment. However, the right channel's subwoofer lacks the left's frequency response and gain being in free air. In the above pictures right side of the subwoofer I plan to build an extension wall coming out of the main listening wall where the light switch is running from the ceiling to floor.. A small wall 4ft in depth just to corner load the right side. Heck I'd start on the project now but it's the dry wall texture that is stopping me. I've never done drywalling before so have been watching DIY videos etc to learn. My OCD would kill me unless it's done to match the house. If I had an extra 2 grand for two more 4-10s I'd sandwich each Ulf between two 4-10s! That cancellation I was referring to was found and fixed by delays through REW. The left subwoofer needed to be delayed by 2.5ms in relation to the right sub and both mains needed be delayed 15ms. I've been grinning from ear to ear over a month now since tuning! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 19:15:37 GMT -5
I moved a SINGLE 12" sub from the left side of the room, by the LH main speaker. It was nearest a corner. the effect was a huge boomy and NON MUSICAL bass in the adjacent den. It was like sitting in a 55 gallon drum. Elsewhere in the main listening area the bass was muddy and indistinct. I moved the sub about 10 to 12 feet to behind the RH speaker and NOW it is musical, extends very low and is completely non-directional. I cross the mains (hi pass) about 50 to 55hz at 12db / octave The internal sub crossover is at 40 to 45hz @24db / octave. As the mains increase, the sub drops off....this fills the gap nicely. Do you sit in all those various seats elsewhere in the listening room while enjoying your system? Some suggest once your sub is optimally located for one position then multiple subs are not necessary. However, if there are multiple listening positions in the room then multiple subs will benefit. My mains are high passed 15 hz BW 24db slope. The subs are bandpassed 15 hz and 120hz high and low w/ BW 24db slopes. Love these 4-10s crossed over 120hz but they are localizable playing that high so putting them symmetrically in the front sound stage not only satisfies my visual ocd but also my ears. |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Aug 22, 2021 20:05:56 GMT -5
I live by a thought which is VERY true.
'Do not let PERFECT be the Enemy of GOOD'.
I may have gotten lucky with my sub location, but can I better it? Maybe.
But maybe not. And at what cost?
I think I've got a slight advantage. Room is very asymmetrical. 8 walls, no 2 the same length. Or height. Ceiling peak is off center, and at about 11 feet or so runs the long way in the
room.
One wall is even at a 45! My sole bit of exclusive treatment is a dense woolen tapestry at the far end. It breaks up the long-way reflection which I noted 30 years ago was the origin
of a slap-back echo.
Just my OPINION, but 120 is way too high to cross a sub. Or at least a driver which should be part of the 'image'...(audio, that is) Any way to experiment at 100hz than lower as
time allows?
|
|
Germotiva
Minor Hero
Alter Mann über 50 aus Deutschland
Posts: 90
|
Post by Germotiva on Aug 23, 2021 3:53:50 GMT -5
Hallo ttocs, wir haben den gleichen Gedanken. Ich erweiterung auch mein Setup LFE/BM. Ich experimentiere für die Zukunft für den nächsten Raum. 1 DSP für alle Subs mit Weiterleitung an weiteren 7 DSP für die einzelnen Kanäle mit BM. Es wird verrückt, aber alles oder nichts. Ich schicke Ihnen persönlich weitere Details. Es wird kompliziert zu verstehen. Aber Sie werden sehen, was ich vornehme
|
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Aug 23, 2021 7:24:46 GMT -5
Hallo ttocs, wir haben den gleichen Gedanken. Ich erweiterung auch mein Setup LFE/BM. Ich experimentiere für die Zukunft für den nächsten Raum. 1 DSP für alle Subs mit Weiterleitung an weiteren 7 DSP für die einzelnen Kanäle mit BM. Es wird verrückt, aber alles oder nichts. Ich schicke Ihnen persönlich weitere Details. Es wird kompliziert zu verstehen. Aber Sie werden sehen, was ich vornehme As long as the delays don’t get crazy, adding DSP’s seems to work very well. I wouldn’t do this for upper frequencies, but for bass it seems to work. I just wish they made a 4 into 4. That would mean one less device. But in the end it doesn’t matter much because two channel music is what is most important to me, and for that there’s only 1 outboard DSP involved. |
|
