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Post by p4t on Jan 4, 2022 11:33:09 GMT -5
1. Yes. 2. I am using dirac. 3. I have not try to measure it yet using REW. Okay. so did you do a full Dirac recalibration with all 8 subs? And, for each sub output - Center 4 subs, and Left 4 subs - how did the Dirac response look? And I don't recall if you mentioned ... did you gain match and time align each group of subs in the Dayton before running Dirac? I calibrated each group using dayton before running dirac. I am using level match not gain match. But the difference between front corner subs and rear corner subs, the front corner subs around 2DB louder than rear corner subs. The dirac response for LFE subs and BM subs is pretty good, and I did not boost more than 3DB if any. |
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Post by p4t on Jan 4, 2022 11:38:56 GMT -5
I meant, I try if it is possible to also align each group (LFE and BM) together. So I can also try to make center sub as mono and left sub out also as mono. But that just won’t happen. Sadly I haven’t checked the FR using REW.and now one of the Kube 10B sub is already sold. So I cannot use this setup anymore. Since these experiment I did already around 3 months ago. Next with the subwoofer I have left I will try place 3 of kube 12B as near field subwoofer. I will keep it updated once I have this setup. Ok, now I get it. It's very difficult to align two groups of subs when one group is stacked on the other. It's much easier to align all of the subs in a methodical manner. Start with one, like the bottom one in one location, then add the one stacked on top, then add another bottom, then the one on top of it, and so on. Or, align all the bottoms, then add each additional top. But aligning all bottoms, then aligning all tops, then trying to align the top group with the bottom group is very problematic in my opinion. When I've tried all sorts of ways to align subs in various combinations, it's only been successful to add one sub at a time and build a group this way. Of course, there's always DLBC which we don't have. Just connect a bunch of subs to a bunch of outputs and let the software do the work. Yes, you are right, it is difficult to align 2 or more groups. Just trying if it possible then I can make LFE subs and BM subs works separately or can change to mono and works as one giant subwoofer, but i guess that is not possible. Well, maybe someone out there also try what I did, and I want to hear how it goes. |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 4, 2022 12:08:30 GMT -5
Ok, now I get it. It's very difficult to align two groups of subs when one group is stacked on the other. It's much easier to align all of the subs in a methodical manner. Start with one, like the bottom one in one location, then add the one stacked on top, then add another bottom, then the one on top of it, and so on. Or, align all the bottoms, then add each additional top. But aligning all bottoms, then aligning all tops, then trying to align the top group with the bottom group is very problematic in my opinion. When I've tried all sorts of ways to align subs in various combinations, it's only been successful to add one sub at a time and build a group this way. Of course, there's always DLBC which we don't have. Just connect a bunch of subs to a bunch of outputs and let the software do the work. Yes, you are right, it is difficult to align 2 or more groups. Just trying if it possible then I can make LFE subs and BM subs works separately or can change to mono and works as one giant subwoofer, but i guess that is not possible. Well, maybe someone out there also try what I did, and I want to hear how it goes. You can definitely group all 8 in the Dayton if you wish. Just that you'll need to add each additional sub as you align. I highly suggest grouping however many subs you want into one group, then feeding the Dayton Left Sub Mono and Center Sub LFE, then output from the Dayton to the subwoofer group. I have two stacks of 2-subs each that I use for my Main speakers. Both in each stack are aligned to the speaker they are stacked next to. Left speaker with its stack, and Right speaker with its stack. But I also use the bottom sub in each stack and one subwoofer in back of room for a 3-sub group that handles BM and LFE. So when I listen to two channel music, two speakers and four subwoofers are operating without any bass management. When HT is operating, these same four subs still operate as they usually do, plus, the bottom subs and the rear sub perform BM and LFE duties. It works extremely well all the way around. Then, my Center Speaker has a couple subwoofers dedicated to it, completely separate from everything else. I started using two just to mirror the subs as they are about 4' left and right of center of tv screen so my equipment can be in the middle. Another miniDSP handles the BM for this, not the processor. So the Center Channel is setup as Large. See my signature for general Large/Small setup. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 4, 2022 12:59:21 GMT -5
I meant, I try if it is possible to also align each group (LFE and BM) together. So I can also try to make center sub as mono and left sub out also as mono. But that just won’t happen. Sadly I haven’t checked the FR using REW.and now one of the Kube 10B sub is already sold. So I cannot use this setup anymore. Since these experiment I did already around 3 months ago. Next with the subwoofer I have left I will try place 3 of kube 12B as near field subwoofer. I will keep it updated once I have this setup. Ok, now I get it. It's very difficult to align two groups of subs when one group is stacked on the other. It's much easier to align all of the subs in a methodical manner. Start with one, like the bottom one in one location, then add the one stacked on top, then add another bottom, then the one on top of it, and so on. Or, align all the bottoms, then add each additional top. But aligning all bottoms, then aligning all tops, then trying to align the top group with the bottom group is very problematic in my opinion. When I've tried all sorts of ways to align subs in various combinations, it's only been successful to add one sub at a time and build a group this way. Of course, there's always DLBC which we don't have. Just connect a bunch of subs to a bunch of outputs and let the software do the work. + p4t It should be easy to align them with REW alone, or REW + Dirac. First they should be gain-matched which should be simple. Then if you run a sweep of each sub individually from its low limit to about 100Hz, you can read the time delays right off the REW Impulse Response ... all 8 of them. Then use the farthest one as the target and delay the rest until they align. Then Dirac will align the groups to the other speakers. |
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Post by p4t on Jan 4, 2022 21:14:38 GMT -5
Yes, you are right, it is difficult to align 2 or more groups. Just trying if it possible then I can make LFE subs and BM subs works separately or can change to mono and works as one giant subwoofer, but i guess that is not possible. Well, maybe someone out there also try what I did, and I want to hear how it goes. You can definitely group all 8 in the Dayton if you wish. Just that you'll need to add each additional sub as you align. I highly suggest grouping however many subs you want into one group, then feeding the Dayton Left Sub Mono and Center Sub LFE, then output from the Dayton to the subwoofer group. I have two stacks of 2-subs each that I use for my Main speakers. Both in each stack are aligned to the speaker they are stacked next to. Left speaker with its stack, and Right speaker with its stack. But I also use the bottom sub in each stack and one subwoofer in back of room for a 3-sub group that handles BM and LFE. So when I listen to two channel music, two speakers and four subwoofers are operating without any bass management. When HT is operating, these same four subs still operate as they usually do, plus, the bottom subs and the rear sub perform BM and LFE duties. It works extremely well all the way around. Then, my Center Speaker has a couple subwoofers dedicated to it, completely separate from everything else. I started using two just to mirror the subs as they are about 4' left and right of center of tv screen so my equipment can be in the middle. Another miniDSP handles the BM for this, not the processor. So the Center Channel is setup as Large. See my signature for general Large/Small setup. Thank you Ttocs. I always follow your posting especially about subwoofer setup. Based on your signature, which dedicated subs do you use for the center channel? Total you are using 6 subs? |
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Post by p4t on Jan 4, 2022 21:17:02 GMT -5
Ok, now I get it. It's very difficult to align two groups of subs when one group is stacked on the other. It's much easier to align all of the subs in a methodical manner. Start with one, like the bottom one in one location, then add the one stacked on top, then add another bottom, then the one on top of it, and so on. Or, align all the bottoms, then add each additional top. But aligning all bottoms, then aligning all tops, then trying to align the top group with the bottom group is very problematic in my opinion. When I've tried all sorts of ways to align subs in various combinations, it's only been successful to add one sub at a time and build a group this way. Of course, there's always DLBC which we don't have. Just connect a bunch of subs to a bunch of outputs and let the software do the work. + p4t It should be easy to align them with REW alone, or REW + Dirac. First they should be gain-matched which should be simple. Then if you run a sweep of each sub individually from its low limit to about 100Hz, you can read the time delays right off the REW Impulse Response ... all 8 of them. Then use the farthest one as the target and delay the rest until they align. Then Dirac will align the groups to the other speakers. Thank you Marcl for your suggestion. I guess gain match is better than level match so all subs working equally. |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 4, 2022 22:18:58 GMT -5
Thank you Ttocs. I always follow your posting especially about subwoofer setup. 1. Based on your signature, which dedicated subs do you use for the center channel? 2. Total you are using 6 subs? 1. One Rel R-218 10" sub, and one Martin Logan Dynamo 800X 10" sub. I've had the Rel for almost 12 years, so I just use it because I have it. All the other subs are Martin Logan 1100X (4) and the Rear Sub is another 800X. At some point I'll replace the Rel with another 800X, but I'm in no hurry. The Martin Logans are a lot easier to setup, plus they have Anthem ARC built-in which helps a lot. 2. Total of seven subs. |
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Post by p4t on Jan 5, 2022 11:51:47 GMT -5
Thank you Ttocs. I always follow your posting especially about subwoofer setup. 1. Based on your signature, which dedicated subs do you use for the center channel? 2. Total you are using 6 subs? 1. One Rel R-218 10" sub, and one Martin Logan Dynamo 800X 10" sub. I've had the Rel for almost 12 years, so I just use it because I have it. All the other subs are Martin Logan 1100X (4) and the Rear Sub is another 800X. At some point I'll replace the Rel with another 800X, but I'm in no hurry. The Martin Logans are a lot easier to setup, plus they have Anthem ARC built-in which helps a lot. 2. Total of seven subs. Nice. Someday I want also make all my subwoofer the same brand and type. So it is easier to setup. |
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Post by p4t on Jan 9, 2022 10:54:47 GMT -5
I have a question. Is there a rule of thumb how to set gain on subwoofer. For example, set the gain on subwoofer 100% (max gain) and -50% level on minidsp or 50% on subwoofer gain and 0Db on minidsp. Just say they both produce 80Db.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jan 9, 2022 11:17:53 GMT -5
I have a question. Is there a rule of thumb how to set gain on subwoofer. For example, set the gain on subwoofer 100% (max gain) and -50% level on minidsp or 50% on subwoofer gain and 0Db on minidsp. Just say they both produce 80Db. I use gain on each and every sub as a tweak for setting them up so they each provide "their" part in working together. For example, on a scale of -40dB to +12dB, one of my subs is at -12dB, another is at -14dB, and the third in this group is at -16dB. These are the three subs I use for BM and LFE. Three locations, three different settings. I chose to use the settings on each sub because it's super easy with the app they are controlled by, vs doing basically the same thing with miniDSP. Then, I use the miniDSP to adjust down for the entire group if needed. Also, setting the sub at maximum seems a bit risky should a cable come undone or whatever. I guess full gain is there if one wants to use it, but so far I've never gotten close to needing it. |
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Post by p4t on Jan 9, 2022 11:52:37 GMT -5
I have a question. Is there a rule of thumb how to set gain on subwoofer. For example, set the gain on subwoofer 100% (max gain) and -50% level on minidsp or 50% on subwoofer gain and 0Db on minidsp. Just say they both produce 80Db. I use gain on each and every sub as a tweak for setting them up so they each provide "their" part in working together. For example, on a scale of -40dB to +12dB, one of my subs is at -12dB, another is at -14dB, and the third in this group is at -16dB. These are the three subs I use for BM and LFE. Three locations, three different settings. I chose to use the settings on each sub because it's super easy with the app they are controlled by, vs doing basically the same thing with miniDSP. Then, I use the miniDSP to adjust down for the entire group if needed. Also, setting the sub at maximum seems a bit risky should a cable come undone or whatever. I guess full gain is there if one wants to use it, but so far I've never gotten close to needing it. I see. Because I remembered I read from somewhere, when you set your subwoofer level in your AVR lower, say -8 and the sub gain higher, you will get more dynamic subwoofer sound. I don’t know if this also apply to minidsp and xmc-2 . |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 9, 2022 12:40:23 GMT -5
I use gain on each and every sub as a tweak for setting them up so they each provide "their" part in working together. For example, on a scale of -40dB to +12dB, one of my subs is at -12dB, another is at -14dB, and the third in this group is at -16dB. These are the three subs I use for BM and LFE. Three locations, three different settings. I chose to use the settings on each sub because it's super easy with the app they are controlled by, vs doing basically the same thing with miniDSP. Then, I use the miniDSP to adjust down for the entire group if needed. Also, setting the sub at maximum seems a bit risky should a cable come undone or whatever. I guess full gain is there if one wants to use it, but so far I've never gotten close to needing it. I see. Because I remembered I read from somewhere, when you set your subwoofer level in your AVR lower, say -8 and the sub gain higher, you will get more dynamic subwoofer sound. I don’t know if this also apply to minidsp and xmc-2 . Maybe, I don't know. Like anything that amplifies, find the sweet spot. Electric guitars and amps are a good example of what you are saying. Each have a volume control, but how each is set can achieve very different sounds with various settings. Low on the guitar, high on the amp, or the other way around will sound very different. |
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Post by p4t on Jan 10, 2022 7:21:16 GMT -5
I see. Because I remembered I read from somewhere, when you set your subwoofer level in your AVR lower, say -8 and the sub gain higher, you will get more dynamic subwoofer sound. I don’t know if this also apply to minidsp and xmc-2 . Maybe, I don't know. Like anything that amplifies, find the sweet spot. Electric guitars and amps are a good example of what you are saying. Each have a volume control, but how each is set can achieve very different sounds with various settings. Low on the guitar, high on the amp, or the other way around will sound very different. Thanks ttocs. One thing I know for sure, if the subwoofer level on avr or minidsp too low, the signal won’t turn on the subwoofer when the sub setting is auto on. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jan 10, 2022 9:03:36 GMT -5
Maybe, I don't know. Like anything that amplifies, find the sweet spot. Electric guitars and amps are a good example of what you are saying. Each have a volume control, but how each is set can achieve very different sounds with various settings. Low on the guitar, high on the amp, or the other way around will sound very different. Thanks ttocs. One thing I know for sure, if the subwoofer level on avr or minidsp too low, the signal won’t turn on the subwoofer when the sub setting is auto on. Good point. Everything in the system has got to be happy. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 10, 2022 9:25:11 GMT -5
Thanks ttocs. One thing I know for sure, if the subwoofer level on avr or minidsp too low, the signal won’t turn on the subwoofer when the sub setting is auto on. Good point. Everything in the system has got to be happy. + p4t A couple thoughts on the topic ... I've had some issues with bass distortion as the signal goes from the XMC-2 to miniDSP to subs (and in my unusual case, the Magnepan DWM woofers), so I think some care is needed in looking at where gain is added and possibly overloading the inputs to downstream devices. The issue of having enough signal to turn on a sub that's set to auto .... I unfortunately have the same issue with the Monoprice Unity 450 amp that I use for my rear surrounds. There's no way to defeat this so-called "feature" on that amp! And so since rear surrounds can go a long time with no signal, I get these abrupt blasts after a delay. My solution was to increase the level for the rear surrounds +10db in the XMC-2. This ensures there's always a little something present to keep the amp on. Then I lower the gain on the amp to match levels with the other speakers. This technique could also be used for subs with auto-on. And FWIW, my subs have plenty of gain so I have them matched with their volume controls around 3/4. |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 10, 2022 10:07:32 GMT -5
Good point. Everything in the system has got to be happy. + p4t A couple thoughts on the topic ... I've had some issues with bass distortion as the signal goes from the XMC-2 to miniDSP to subs (and in my unusual case, the Magnepan DWM woofers), so I think some care is needed in looking at where gain is added and possibly overloading the inputs to downstream devices. The issue of having enough signal to turn on a sub that's set to auto .... I unfortunately have the same issue with the Monoprice Unity 450 amp that I use for my rear surrounds. There's no way to defeat this so-called "feature" on that amp! And so since rear surrounds can go a long time with no signal, I get these abrupt blasts after a delay. My solution was to increase the level for the rear surrounds +10db in the XMC-2. This ensures there's always a little something present to keep the amp on. Then I lower the gain on the amp to match levels with the other speakers. This technique could also be used for subs with auto-on. And FWIW, my subs have plenty of gain so I have them matched with their volume controls around 3/4. There, you see? You're keeping things "happy"! With your increased level there must be some amount of noise (inaudible?) or enough electrical signal from the processor to keep the amp turned on. When there is no active signal, is anything audible in the rears? Just curious, not saying some amount of hiss or whatever is bad for this because it's a good workaround. I'm only wondering what is keeping the amp turned on? |
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Post by marcl on Jan 10, 2022 10:34:23 GMT -5
+ p4t A couple thoughts on the topic ... I've had some issues with bass distortion as the signal goes from the XMC-2 to miniDSP to subs (and in my unusual case, the Magnepan DWM woofers), so I think some care is needed in looking at where gain is added and possibly overloading the inputs to downstream devices. The issue of having enough signal to turn on a sub that's set to auto .... I unfortunately have the same issue with the Monoprice Unity 450 amp that I use for my rear surrounds. There's no way to defeat this so-called "feature" on that amp! And so since rear surrounds can go a long time with no signal, I get these abrupt blasts after a delay. My solution was to increase the level for the rear surrounds +10db in the XMC-2. This ensures there's always a little something present to keep the amp on. Then I lower the gain on the amp to match levels with the other speakers. This technique could also be used for subs with auto-on. And FWIW, my subs have plenty of gain so I have them matched with their volume controls around 3/4. There, you see? You're keeping things "happy"! With your increased level there must be some amount of noise (inaudible?) or enough electrical signal from the processor to keep the amp turned on. When there is no active signal, is anything audible in the rears? Just curious, not saying some amount of hiss or whatever is bad for this because it's a good workaround. I'm only wondering what is keeping the amp turned on? During the day we sit in the back third of the room where our desks are located. The rear surrounds are about 6ft away, just above ear level. Usually music is streaming at a low level and with the upmixer this approach keeps the rear surrounds on which fills the room nicely with background music. The amp does go off if the level is really low, or if the source is mono and the upmixer sends nothing to the surrounds. So with the upmixer, either there's some actual sound or the amp does go off. When watching video - or focused music listening - the MLP is about 4ft farther forward, and if there were to be nothing much sent to the rear surrounds in that scenario, I'd be too far away to hear any background noise. |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 10, 2022 10:47:12 GMT -5
There, you see? You're keeping things "happy"! With your increased level there must be some amount of noise (inaudible?) or enough electrical signal from the processor to keep the amp turned on. When there is no active signal, is anything audible in the rears? Just curious, not saying some amount of hiss or whatever is bad for this because it's a good workaround. I'm only wondering what is keeping the amp turned on? During the day we sit in the back third of the room where our desks are located. The rear surrounds are about 6ft away, just above ear level. Usually music is streaming at a low level and with the upmixer this approach keeps the rear surrounds on which fills the room nicely with background music. The amp does go off if the level is really low, or if the source is mono and the upmixer sends nothing to the surrounds. So with the upmixer, either there's some actual sound or the amp does go off. When watching video - or focused music listening - the MLP is about 4ft farther forward, and if there were to be nothing much sent to the rear surrounds in that scenario, I'd be too far away to hear any background noise. Again, I like the workaround you're using, just wondering what the amp is getting that is keeping it alive? Not saying it's audible to us humans necessarily. Is there "just enough" background noise in a surround movie that even when there's no direct sound in the rears that there might be just enough to keep the amp on? Or is it just system noise at a low level coming from the processor when the +10dB Level is added to the volume level being used to watch a movie even when there is no sound in the rears? |
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Post by marcl on Jan 10, 2022 13:31:46 GMT -5
During the day we sit in the back third of the room where our desks are located. The rear surrounds are about 6ft away, just above ear level. Usually music is streaming at a low level and with the upmixer this approach keeps the rear surrounds on which fills the room nicely with background music. The amp does go off if the level is really low, or if the source is mono and the upmixer sends nothing to the surrounds. So with the upmixer, either there's some actual sound or the amp does go off. When watching video - or focused music listening - the MLP is about 4ft farther forward, and if there were to be nothing much sent to the rear surrounds in that scenario, I'd be too far away to hear any background noise. Again, I like the workaround you're using, just wondering what the amp is getting that is keeping it alive? Not saying it's audible to us humans necessarily. Is there "just enough" background noise in a surround movie that even when there's no direct sound in the rears that there might be just enough to keep the amp on? Or is it just system noise at a low level coming from the processor when the +10dB Level is added to the volume level being used to watch a movie even when there is no sound in the rears? I did a quick test. I put on a movie from Apple TV Netflix called The Disciple. It's about Indian classical music and it happens to be in Atmos. Yeah ... precious little coming from anything but the fronts and center. So I put it on a scene with a couple musicians and an old man singing traditional classical style, and at my normal movie listening level -12db the rear amp didn't trigger. So I turned it up to -8db and finally it came on, so I listened a foot from the rear surrounds and barely heard a bit of ambience from the room where the guy was singing. Then I paused the movie and the amp stayed engaged. Not a sound that I could hear from the rear surrounds. BTW I was a little concerned that the high output would overload the inputs to the Unity 450, but I have never heard any distortion, nor have I measured anything unusual with REW. Oh and ... the rear surround speakers are B1+ crossed over to Large Front bass management at 60Hz. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jan 10, 2022 13:57:51 GMT -5
Again, I like the workaround you're using, just wondering what the amp is getting that is keeping it alive? Not saying it's audible to us humans necessarily. Is there "just enough" background noise in a surround movie that even when there's no direct sound in the rears that there might be just enough to keep the amp on? Or is it just system noise at a low level coming from the processor when the +10dB Level is added to the volume level being used to watch a movie even when there is no sound in the rears? I did a quick test. I put on a movie from Apple TV Netflix called The Disciple. It's about Indian classical music and it happens to be in Atmos. Yeah ... precious little coming from anything but the fronts and center. So I put it on a scene with a couple musicians and an old man singing traditional classical style, and at my normal movie listening level -12db the rear amp didn't trigger. So I turned it up to -8db and finally it came on, so I listened a foot from the rear surrounds and barely heard a bit of ambience from the room where the guy was singing. Then I paused the movie and the amp stayed engaged. Not a sound that I could hear from the rear surrounds. BTW I was a little concerned that the high output would overload the inputs to the Unity 450, but I have never heard any distortion, nor have I measured anything unusual with REW. Oh and ... the rear surround speakers are B1+ crossed over to Large Front bass management at 60Hz. Interesting, thanks! So it seems like there needs to be at least some amount of actual audio, like the ambient sounds, to be able to trigger the amp. At idle, it appears that the processor isn't making enough noise to trigger on its own. So instead of the amp finally triggering when audio reaches a high enough level and possibly too high and too sudden, with your increased Level setting a much softer sound will trigger the amp so it's a more graceful startup. Nice! This should help those having similar issues. This is something you might want to share in the Owner's thread. |
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